Rare breeds...why?!

[Rollin]

Orangehorse - so many people are 'over-horsed' by their warm bloods. Big strong horses with more and more TB. Our natives are much more suited to riding club riders. I have a Highland too.

 

[catkin]

The French have also developed the Henson as a breed. Lives out, around 14.2-15 hh, sturdy, easily carry adults, yet nice temperament. Bred on the Somme and the mares and youngstock live out on the seaside marshes in the summer months. A really nice, useful type purpose bred.

I think it is a shame that the New Forest is not more popular, I think they are far more people friendly than the ubiquitous welsh cob. Connemara ponies are great competition animals, but many adults would think that even the larger natives = Highland, Dales, New Forest - are too small, but they probably aren't. I would far rather have a Highland or Dales than a coloured cob.

Warmbloods have taken over as they have been deliberately purpose bred for sports. There hasn't been an equivalent breeding policy for family/leisure type ponies in the UK as I suppose there simply isn't any money in it.

The only "family type" horse I can think of as opposed to a competition animal is a Morgan, which is an American breed of course.

Actually in the UK there are a few 'family horse' breeds that have been bred for hundreds of years - yep, you've guessed it, they are collectively called native or m&m ponies. they can be sharp little competition horses too if you've got the dash to ride/drive them right

 

[SO1]

Yes I was at the PUK champs. I was very lucky to qualify both in hand and ridden as I don't have my own horsebox and can only afford to do a couple of shows a year. He is 15 now and I have had him for 10 years and I expect most of the other competitors have gone to more shows in one year than we have been in 10! Last year we only did the breed show and one PUK qualifier. He didn't go as well as he can do as it was a bit overwhelming for both us in the ridden. He needs to be able to move forward to be at his best and I just didn't have the ring craft experience to enable me to get the best out of him with the space and number of ponies in the class, as well as being nervous.

I also am paranoid about laminitis so I like to keep him slim and fit so he was not in typical "show condition" for the in hand class either.

When I bought him 10 years ago I did want to do some workers with him and started having some lessons with a workers producer who said he had the ability to be very successful. Unfortunately I was just too nervous and soon realised I would not be confident to jump 95cm. As you can see from this photo 60cm made me feel a bit worried! I know he is overweight in this photo but it was a long time ago and I don't let him get this fat anymore!

The connies are being bred more commercially than the NF and a lot are going over height because people want 14.2 as bigger ponies seem to do better in the show classes and have an advantage in the workers. Average height of a NF is 13.2-14h. The continental Foresters are being bred more like sport ponies but I think whilst this makes them more commercial there is a risk that they move away from being a true traditional native pony that can winter out on the Forest to a more generic sports pony which I think would a be shame but then if people don't appreciate the more sturdy types then maybe the breed has to evolve to survive.

Our next outing is bit different as we are going to do a Le Trec. I have never done the orienteering before so a new challenge!

Were you at PUK SO1 I think we saw you?

Perhaps I should clarify I do mean athletic in movement (I did say move rather than leaping/escapee abilities ), but they were also notably lacking in the open workers compared to other breeds though I do know a few BSJAing in general it is not their forte unless european bred where they seem to have sportified them a bit. There was a particularly leggy stallion about last weekend who looked like a smart sports pony stood up but really had very little stride to speak of. They are good<script id="gpt-impl-0.08051968456565284" src="https://securepubads.g.doubleclick.net/gpt/pubads_impl_112.js"></script> at what they do but it depends what you want them for. My friend had a fab one who as comparative youngster stalwartly ignored my welsh being a tit while they did pairs dressage , he was solid as but medium trot was a struggle.

I should mention I have hunted with a fair few, it was nice sharing a meet with the New Forest as I wasn't the only adult on a pony

 

[Leo Walker]

He is only 13.3 so not huge at all!

Hes lovely! Perfect example of why more people should have natives

 

[SO1]

Thank you.

I couldn't love him any more if I tried, he is my pride and joy. I bought him as a 5 year old, 10 years ago and he has enabled me with limited natural riding ability and resources to do a wide range of activities. I was originally looking for a Connemara and didn't know anything about New Forests. Even 5 a year old Connemara at the time was about £6,000 and in the end I realised I could not afford one, so I thought I would wait and save up more money to get one, but saw my lovely NF on horsequest and thought I would try him, he was 5 and only £3,000 so half the price of a Connie. Whilst we have had some challenges along the way he has proved to be a great pony, NF like a lot of the rare breeds mentioned are hidden treasures.

Hes lovely! Perfect example of why more people should have natives

 

[ester]

He was lovely, you did fab and he was super well behaved and definitely in lovely condition. Rara's sister picked him out as her fav as soon as you came in . I'm not a showing bod generally so it was an educational weekend . I was partly watching because I will be looking to get another at some point (F is 24 and semi retired now) and was trying to see which direction I might go in - given that not having a welshie is very hard for me to consider currently! Frankly the welshies doing the workers were ermm very welsh even those with a good prior record to the point that I thought if I wanted a consistent jumper I might want to look elsewhere . But that depends if I want to jump or not.

I agree re. the continental versions moving away from the traditional forester, same with welshies and other natives they have had though. As you say essentially the purpose of many including foresters is to be able to live in the rough and it definitely moves away from that. Personally I think there is probably room for both options so long as the numbers in each don't get too small if that makes sense and each has it's place. Our local knackerman used to go and buy up from the sales and throw them in a field for sale to anyone who wants them, friend has had about 10 in that time and only 2 were tricky even as unhandled 4 year olds, everything else was easy to start. One of them I was sat on within a week of breaking when the local caravan park started a firework display, he only moved about 2 strides. He went on to be a fab pony club pony and the girl still owns him 15 odd years down the line, we used to see her a lot at 2'9ish hunter trials and ODE but he always struggled with the time because he didn't really cover the ground. So I am definitely not a downer about them, but 'athletic' does always depend what you are comparing to and owning a welshie and your best mate having a TB definitely highlights that when you go up the gallops!

This is an old photo of Frank and his forester best mate doing what natives do best post pairs dressage . restocking

 

[Dave's Mam]

SO1, your pony is gorgeous & what a fine example of our natives.

 

[SO1]

Thank you that is very kind of you to say so.

If I was wanting to do the big workers and had a decent budget I would go for a Connie. Foresters can jump just as well but they tend to be smaller and as there are less of them you don't have so much choice. For example there are 98 Connies advertised on horsequest compared to 13 Foresters, and most of the foresters advertised are under 14h. I do have friends who have Section D's who are fantastic jumpers but they are the lighter type and don't move like the more traditional showing D's with the big powerful trots.

I don't understand why Cleveland Bays are not more popular, they look great and they are a popular size. Are they difficult to handle, or do they not jump?

Hopefully this thread might inspire someone who might not have thought of having of the rare breeds to give them a chance. The only warning I would give to those who are not experienced with native ponies is that weight management is an issue and they often need a combination of plenty of exercise and restricted grazing/food to keep them a healthy weight.

He was lovely, you did fab and he was super well behaved and definitely in lovely condition. Rara's sister picked him out as her fav as soon as you came in . I'm not a showing bod generally so it was an educational weekend . I was partly watching because I will be looking to get another at some point (F is 24 and semi retired now) and was trying to see which direction I might go in - given that not having a welshie is very hard for me to consider currently! Frankly the welshies doing the workers were ermm very welsh even those with a good prior record to the point that I thought if I wanted a consistent jumper I might want to look elsewhere . But that depends if I want to jump or not.

I agree re. the continental versions moving away from the traditional forester, same with welshies and other natives they have had though. As you say essentially the purpose of many including foresters is to be able to live in the rough and it definitely moves away from that. Personally I think there is probably room for both options so long as the numbers in each don't get too small if that makes sense and each has it's place. Our local knackerman used to go and buy up from the sales and throw them in a field for sale to anyone who wants them, friend has had about 10 in that time and only 2 were tricky even as unhandled 4 year olds, everything else was easy to start. One of them I was sat on within a week of breaking when the local caravan park started a firework display, he only moved about 2 strides. He went on to be a fab pony club pony and the girl still owns him 15 odd years down the line, we used to see her a lot at 2'9ish hunter trials and ODE but he always struggled with the time because he didn't really cover the ground. So I am definitely not a downer about them, but 'athletic' does always depend what you are comparing to and owning a welshie and your best mate having a TB definitely highlights that when you go up the gallops!

This is an old photo of Frank and his forester best mate doing what natives do best post pairs dressage . restocking

 

[ester]

My D will jump the moon in the right mood, they just prone to being a bit precious about it and anchoring on. Other friend has a bigger also ginger version of Frank whom she has BSJAd for years and usually he is either top 3 or eliminated depending on how he feels that day . I feel a bit old for too many anchors now I'd have to diet a lot to go for pure connie . I struggle to see me not with an actual horse though , their ears always seem a long way away

TBF to the welshies stopping at their workers course the open horses was less technically and most of them failed too (and someone got loudly told off by the judge for not galloping :eek3:

Regarding CBs I actually think it is down to pure lack of numbers, no one can buy them if they don't exist. And the more people have them as riding horses or people outcrossing them with TBs etc the fewer mares there are to use for breeding pures and it seems the society hasn't really got on top of what they are actually doing . They are certainly a more practical colour than say an ID (that is an issue with most connies too!)

 

[Feival]

This little one is off of bodmin so no real idea what sort of breeding she has, but she is a little superstar, bold as brass, jumps like a stag, moves very nicely but also has an attitude twice the size of her 14.1hh body.

 

[Dave's Mam]

Yes, SO1. I also hope this thread will encourage people to consider a native.

They are fun, hardy, talented & as all of these posts show, can turn a hoof to anything.

Natives Rule.

 

[LaurieT]

& Laurie T, my apologies, I lost my manners amongst my enthusiasm. Welcome to the Forum.

That's quite alright! Hello!! *waves cheerily*

It's so lovely to see so many people enjoying their natives, and if this thread encourages even just one person to take one on, then that's a success in my eyes!

 

[Nici]

What we see on TV and in films does not really help the native breeds: usually the characters sit on a handsome, tall and shiny horse, your typical warmblood. If we are not shown how much fun can be had with a pony or how graceful they can look, the thought of owning one will not even cross our minds. I reckon that kind of promotion could go far in promoting the native breeds.

 

[Dave's Mam]

What we see on TV and in films does not really help the native breeds: usually the characters sit on a handsome, tall and shiny horse, your typical warmblood. If we are not shown how much fun can be had with a pony or how graceful they can look, the thought of owning one will not even cross our minds. I reckon that kind of promotion could go far in promoting the native breeds.

And this article did a good representation of the skills of the Exmoor. More please, H & H!

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/exmoor-pony-pictures-613186

 

[MochaDun]

Great that you are doing your bit to support and highlight native breeds. I love them. Was looking for a pure native when I was getting my pony - started looking at a Haflinger (yes...I know.. but native to Austria!) then moved onto Highlands and ended up with a cob x native. His native element I think is mainly New Forest. And I love that survival above anything else trait of him - much though we can have the odd flight moment which is not always based on reason, just instinct! For work I got to travel the length of the UK looking at some amazing examples of our native breeds and meet some wonderful people supporting and breeding them and learnt loads of history about some of the breeds that I didn't know. Met some fantastic ponies in the process.

 

[YasandCrystal]

I love native breeds. I have had Welsh sec Ds in the past and now (as well as a WB) have a registered Dales gelding. He is rising 7 and I have owned him since he was a 2 year old. I backed him myself at 5 and we have had such fun since doing distance rides a little jumping and xc (I am older) dressage, agility, pole clinics. I feel I can have a go at anything with him. It is sad that the natives are often overlooked. They are so much hardier in every respect and that fact is backed up by the insurance companies and vets.
I am very lucky as he has grown to a good 15hh

 

[MotherOfChickens]

lovely Dales!

 

[xelliex123x]

Thanks Laurie, this was a really interesting read! I have found out a few things I didn't know (Cleveland Bay has always been a pub to me... haha)

It's also made me want a Dales pony!

 

[tristar]

there is a cracking new forest for sale on the ads at the side, certainly shows what they can do!

 

[Laika]

This is my little Exie, Bluebarn Nancy A.K.A Laika.

Native ponies are the absolute best. I have had mine just short of a year and I absolutely adore her. She's the best thing I've ever done with my life. They do present some challenges but she is full of character.

P.S I hope I did an alright job posting a photo... never done it before

 

[supsup]

I think pointing at individual examples of pedigree natives for examples of what they can do is pointless. Yes, there are great individuals for all sorts of purposes amongst rare native breeds, but the same is true for the general, non-pedigree native pony population (including your coloured cobs and various cross breeds).
I think the relevant question is: what does a registered rare breed native offer (at a steeper price, most likely) that a non-pedigree native cannot offer at a cheaper price? IMO, the rare breeds don't have sufficient distinguishing qualities, and apart from showing, breed does not matter for most of the common competitive uses (jumping, dressage, eventing...). Other native breeds that are not rare stand out more, e.g. Haflingers for their distinct palomino colour, Icelandics for their special gaits.
One thing that pedigree can potentially offer is more control over the genes that go into the horse, and thus potentially more confidence in the individual's capabilities. But IMO that argument only holds water if both parents are performance tested (and at least to me, showing success does not equal performance - it would have to be athletic performance in some discipline that demonstrates the pony's character and soundness for purpose). But as far as I am aware, none of the British breeds require performance testing of the sire, let alone the brood mares.
That's my view anyway, on why rare native breeds are not more popular. Nothing wrong with the ponies themselves, they just don't have very strong selling points, IMO.
The other thing you get if you buy a rare native is instant access to a "club" (breed society) of hopefully like minded people. But if there is internal conflict in the society, that may be less fun than it sounds.

 

[Dave's Mam]

Other native breeds that are not rare stand out more, e.g. Haflingers for their distinct palomino colour, Icelandics for their special gaits.

Neither Haflingers nor Icelandics are native, unless you live in Austria or Iceland.

 

[supsup]

Sorry, should have said: "native type breed". My point being that people go to the trouble (including myself, have an Icelandic) to buy pedigree native type horses that are not British because they offer something that the British natives don't have. Five gaits, in my case.
I can't think of anything offhand that would make me go: "I need to get a New Forest, because I want my pony to have a particular quality that only a New Forest will provide."

 

[tristar]

we don`t really need to performance test natives because we have been riding them for so long we know what they can do, and they breed very true to type in particular environments which keep them true to type.

we don`t need foreign judges telling us whats what, they can stick to testing their own horses which are generally too genetically diverse to breed from without testing.

 

[milliepops]

have to agree with supsup to a degree here, before I ended up with a sec D by accident, I'd never have considered a pure bred native for sport.... I happen to have ended up with a particularly athletic one but they are few and far between in my discipline, at the higher levels.

I think some kind of performance testing would be a positive step as I would also not consider showing to be reflective of athletic ability or capacity for higher level training I wouldn't be that interested in a rare breed native for the sake of owning a member of a dwindling gene pool, but if they had some kind of proven ability for sport then it becomes more attractive. I'm not sure why this would have to involve foreign judges?!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

have to agree with supsup to a degree here, before I ended up with a sec D by accident, I'd never have considered a pure bred native for sport.... I happen to have ended up with a particularly athletic one but they are few and far between in my discipline, at the higher levels.

the vast majority of riders never reach nor want to reach the higher levels. Natives fulfil the remit of family ponies, riding club horses and low maintenance all rounders that can try their hand to most things.

 

[tristar]

but the british natives have been taken by the foreigners and performance tested! not long a go a pure welsh cob stallion was champion junior show jumper of europe! and i have seen many, many natives and their crosses performing across europe.

be interesting to see how millie`s welsh goes on in the future.

i think they are already a predicatable package that only need to meet the right trainer, i know the ones i have ridden felt wonderful, and while i have only ever ridden one warmblood, which i thought as the most boring thing ever and wanted to get off after 5 minutes, the memory sensation of riding british natives will stay with me for ever, i could just feel the potential they had.

 

[milliepops]

the vast majority of riders never reach nor want to reach the higher levels. Natives fulfil the remit of family ponies, riding club horses and low maintenance all rounders that can try their hand to most things.

No, granted, but there's so much hearsay and generalisation about the characteristics of the various breeds that is not terribly helpful in choosing your next mount..

the "stuffy" cleveland bay
the "hysterical" welsh
the "stubborn" highland... when you've had a good one then you know they are individuals, just the same as any other horse... I dunno. I'm not suggesting that you'd go native because you wanted to go 4* eventing, but you could combine the family pony elements with even lower affiliated levels quite easily. All the major horse sports are trying to make the lower levels more accessible, look at BE80, My Quest/Team Quest, etc both of which are extremely popular and you don't need a WB for either, you need a good trainable sound horse.... which could well be a native, if native owners wanted to aim a little higher than family pony status

but the british natives have been taken by the foreigners and performance tested! not long a go a pure welsh cob stallion was champion junior show jumper of europe! and i have seen many, many natives and their crosses performing across europe.

be interesting to see how millie`s welsh goes on in the future.

From reading posts on here, the european versions of our natives are somewhat barstardised, more mini WBs not really recognisable like our versions though?
Ah, I'll be interested to see how my welsh gets on too, lol - she was supposed to be sold as a low level allrounder some time ago but turned out to be too much fun... I've learnt not to get carried away with dreams of great achievement as fate often intervenes but we're enjoying the ride anyway

 

[supsup]

My point about performance testing isn't about the capabilities of the breed - there are very capable individuals already. But I'm guessing those that go abroad and are performance tested there rarely come back to Britain to stand for stud and contribute to the British bloodlines. Or do they? It's about the predictability/potential of the offspring of the registered sire/dam. IMO, that is the only advantage of pedigree over just evaluating each individual as it presents at the time you go out to buy him/her. So I think a system (breed society) that can provide a certain guarantee or likelihood that the offspring will be suitable for whatever the defined purpose is will have an advantage on the market over horses that don't have that sort of pedigree. This is pretty much what the German warmblood and German sports pony system is about.
I agree though that many people wanting natives don't need a super high performing jumper/eventer. Still, I would argue that a horse that does well in a physically demanding sport is more likely to have a conformation that stands up well to work, and is inherently trainable. Those two are requirements that are pretty universal, even for leisure horses.
The Icelandic horse society (international) has recently started to introduce a leisure horse assessment process that is aimed at evaluating sales horses for temperament (things like standing to mount, dealing with spooky things, going away from other horses...) in order to better match them to potential (leisure) buyers. Personally, I'm not totally convinced by that idea because I think a lot of the things they test for can be trained, and don't have a lot to do with the innate character of the horse, but it's encouraging to see that they are trying to do something to promote the breed for the leisure market, not just for sports competition.
As I said, I don't think there's anything wrong at all with the British native breeds, merely with their visibility on the market.

 

[ester]

See I don't think there is an issue with people knowing how great natives are, I know LOADS of people with them. They are all well aware of how good they are for what they want to do (which is often, like me, a bit of everything with relatively little fuss but I know a fair few out SJ/BE/stressage).
I do think quite a lot of welshies (of all sections) at least could do well pure dressage if schooled correctly on the basis that they do have more natural movement than some of the other natives for whom moving too extravagantly would be seen as a bad thing. It's just not that frequent they end up under the right rider to do so. If I decide I don't want to jump seriously and want to do stressage I can see me ending up with another anyway.


oh and for the record, haffies are NOT palomino, ever.