Resilience

FWIW, after 3 consecutive soft tissue rehabs, when my oldie reinjured the one that had surgery the year before, i decided on field rest instead of another rehab. Mentally it helped that i had decided to retire her at that point, but i figured that ultimately she would limit her own activity according to her comfort levels. there were a couple of odd days where i thought, oooh that doesn't look ideal, but she actually made a good recovery to field-soundness, and I am pretty hard line about what field soundness is to me - i expect to see them living an active life unmedicated and that's what she has now. So if that's the route you decide on - it can be a successful choice.

good luck with the vet later.
 
SO1 said:
Thank you.

Vet coming between 12-1 so hopefully as this is lunch time I will be able to take the call.

I have briefed YO and said I don't want him to do a further 8 months of box rest if it is a soft tissue injury as that would mean 18 months of box rest back to back and I think that is too much for a 20 year old horse and I will retire or let him enjoy a final few months in the field over summer. Obviously this goes against what she would recommend and it is an emotive subject he is a lovely natured pony and a real yard favourite and long term resident. I have said I understand the risks of doing this and if it is soft tissue retirement or turn away may make it worse and lead to PTS. I love him very dearly and it is incredibly hard to make this sort of decision.

I am hoping it is just a bit of age related arthritis.
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I admire you.
 
Gamebird said:
Definitely not the case!

I think it's probably worth mentioning that everyone draws the line in different places. And even the same person might draw the line in a different place on two different occasions. In scenarios where some people would PTS without question, others would choose treatment. As vets it is impossible to second guess people, so we always offer options. I have been surprised by clients' choices, and even those of people I knew quite well. Back in the day when I did some small animal work one of my farm clients, a chap that I knew pretty well and was as tough as Yorkshire farmers come, brought me in his working Collie with a fractured (completely smashed) back leg after she'd run under his tractor whilst he'd been feeding cattle. The dog was already at the end of its working life and half blind so in my head there was only one reason he'd brought it to me. Wrong! He wanted everything to be done and I ended up amputating the leg and the dog went on to live out its days as his pet. Similarly I've had what I'd consider to be pretty emotionally attached people, with the time, money and facilities to retire and horse in comfort, or to give it 6 months off in the field, request PTS for horses with minor injuries with a good prognosis for a return to work.

We cannot know what is going on in people's lives or what their attachments or priorities are. There is always a back story. They might have had a horse with this condition previously, and had bad experiences with treatment and have resolved never to go down that route again. Or the horse might be their only link to a deceased family member and they want to do whatever it takes. The day we start second guessing clients or removing options from the list because we don't think that the client will go for it will be a sad day. So we lay the options out and give as much information as possible, and let the client make the choice. It has to be that way. But we should always include PTS in that list if it is a reasonable option. Whether or not the client picks it depends entirely on where their own personal lines are drawn.
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Thank you for that.
 
I think it's very unfair to expect a vet to provide some kind of emotional support/counselling. Counselling and emotional support training is a unique skill that professionals train for. I think the worst thing a vet could do is to get a client to 'open up', start to engage in an emotional process, and then have to walk off leaving them with no support or follow up. It's not the vets job, it's way too much to expect from them. If that was the case vets could be left having to stay at vet visits for hours until a person was calmed down, or stopped crying. it's not their job, it's asking too much to expect it from them.

I totally agree with milliepops, I use field rest now for injuries. They might run at that start, but if they are out 24/7 with good grass they settle. I've rehabbed tendons etc with no box rest at all. It's a really interesting point about vets/insurance making owners feel like they need to invest a lot of money/time into what are unrecoverable issues. one of the nicest aspects of this site I feel, is that it's a sounding board when people can be reassured that PTS is often the best option for horse and/or owner.
 
It’s probably even harder for them to judge how you’re feeling about different options if it’s only on the phone too.

red lines are all very well but I’m not sure horses just ‘conveniently’ cross them very often, and there’s a lot of grey. I’m well aware that some would have PTS F before now, and others would keep him pootling along longer than I would.
I would also have struggled to justify much box rest in his later years because of the impact on the quality of life when the horse doesn’t comprehend yeah I’m in here to get better but obviously others happily do so.
 
SO1 said:
Thank you.

Obviously this goes against what she would recommend and it is an emotive subject he is a lovely natured pony and a real yard favourite and long term resident. I have said I understand the risks of doing this and if it is soft tissue retirement or turn away may make it worse and lead to PTS. I love him very dearly and it is incredibly hard to make this sort of decision.

You might find that your YO is more realistic and empathic than you rae expecting. She will have seen so many horses recover (or not) from somany issues










[QUOTE="SO1, post: 14877753, member: 51268"
Obviously this goes against what she would recommend and it is an emotive subject he is a lovely natured pony and a real yard favourite and long term resident. I have said I understand the risks of doing this and if it is soft tissue retirement or turn away may make it worse and lead to PTS. I love him very dearly and it is incredibly hard to make this sort of decision.
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You might find that your YO is more realistic than you are anticipating, most equine professionals are pragmatic. I can't think of anyone I know who would feel that any more box-rest would be beneficial for a 20 yr old pony. I hope your vet is sensible today.
 
Are Vets not the highest/one of highest ranking careers for losing people to suicide? It's a very tough role; not only dealing with death, sick and injured animals but also the people.

I wouldn't expect a vet to act as a supportive crutch. Honest and truthful yes, supportive with decision making for the animals benefit/welfare yes, but not a shoulder for a client.

I do think that a lot of people take on animals without fully considering what that actually means. I know so many people who have kept small animals going well beyond what most people would consider ethical because they couldn't bear to lose them... The people that sell/pass on injured/unrideable horses as companions to become someone else's responsibility because they can't take ownership of the situation or people who pass horses onto charities or the blood bank just to remove the "problem" from being their responsibility.

If anything more should be done to support vets and their mental health IMO

Edited to correct autocorrects ?
 
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No she already made it clear she thinks he should do the additional box rest if it is a soft tissue injury.

It is a rehab yard they don't believe in turning horses away or retirement for soft tissue injuries. A lot of their in patients are younger competion horses so it is a bit different.

I think it is different in his situation as he has already done 9 months and he 20. I would feel differently if he had not already done 9 box rest.

It is nice yard and he is happy there so I really hope if it soft tissue that they will accommodate retirement in his normal routine pre box rest but I appreciate culturally it might go against their way of doing things so they might not feel comfortable doing something that they feel is not right ethically.

Pearlsasinger said:
You might find that your YO is more realistic than you are anticipating, most equine professionals are pragmatic. I can't think of anyone I know who would feel that any more box-rest would be beneficial for a 20 yr old pony. I hope your vet is sensible today.
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SO1 said:
No she already made it clear she thinks he should do the additional box rest if it is a soft tissue injury.

It is a rehab yard they don't believe in turning horses away or retirement for soft tissue injuries. A lot of their in patients are younger competion horses so it is a bit different.

I think it is different in his situation as he has already done 9 months and he 20. I would feel differently if he had not already done 9 box rest.

It is nice yard and he is happy there so I really hope if it soft tissue that they will accommodate retirement in his normal routine pre box rest but I appreciate culturally it might go against their way of doing things so they might not feel comfortable doing something that they feel is not right ethically.
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Hmm, but I would point out that re-hab is their business, and their bread and butter, so one might say that of course the YO would agree to re-hab as they have experience and practice at doing it, and to 'admit defeat' may be seen to affect their reputation. However rational/neutral they are, they will be giving advice from a completely different view point.

And, I would suggest, that the only person that can make 'ethical' decisions about a horse is the owner.

Sometimes resilience is needed for the guilt one may feel, or guilt that may be put upon one from others about important decision.

In most cases, the 'gut' decision is the right one, and there are always care options if retirement is the decision.

Good luck with your meeting with the vet today.
 
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SO1 said:
Thank you.

Vet coming between 12-1 so hopefully as this is lunch time I will be able to take the call.

I have briefed YO and said I don't want him to do a further 8 months of box rest if it is a soft tissue injury as that would mean 18 months of box rest back to back and I think that is too much for a 20 year old horse and I will retire or let him enjoy a final few months in the field over summer. Obviously this goes against what she would recommend and it is an emotive subject he is a lovely natured pony and a real yard favourite and long term resident. I have said I understand the risks of doing this and if it is soft tissue retirement or turn away may make it worse and lead to PTS. I love him very dearly and it is incredibly hard to make this sort of decision.

I am hoping it is just a bit of age related arthritis.
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I'm wishing you lots of luck with your vet visit today - your horse is obviously loved.
 
ester said:
Interestingly recent conversations with vets (who are mostly new so didn't really know the horses/us) have emphasised (with the oldie) that if in doubt talk to them, don't feel worried to speak to them about PTS etc as they feel like people don't want to bring it up as they think the vet will only want to fix whatever the issue is.
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Totally agree. I sometimes feel I am in a parallel universe as I have never had a vet, small animal or equine, try to push me into treatments I didn't feel were appropriate. Just had a discussion with vet over our elderly cat. She told me she had no worries about the cat's quality of life at the minute but would have no hesitation in telling me when she did.

Also, not trying to hijack the thread, but I wonder if people have rose-tinted glasses about the good old days of horsemanship. My only connection with horses in the 1980s was doing the books for a small riding school. Their costings were based on the assumption that about one third of the horses would be out of work from injury or illness on any one day. They said this was industry standard and they actually had less than one quarter off usually. Horses were generally past a useful working life by the age 17. From memory, given that I knew nothing about horses, they mainly had hairy native types which lived out most of the time when not actually being used in the riding school.
 
Smogul said:
Totally agree. I sometimes feel I am in a parallel universe as I have never had a vet, small animal or equine, try to push me into treatments I didn't feel were appropriate.
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Nor me. this winter I had a vet suggest "gold standard" treatment and i had to say no as we'd run out of funds, equally they were supportive of that decision and we worked out a plan that ensured the horse's welfare in another way.

I'm always keen to know the options and then it's down to me to make the choices about what is appropriate for the individual. Same for my insured ones, I have insurance cover for the vets fees, first and foremost so never feel like i have to do anything in order to get a payout, which i have also seen people complain about.
 
laura_nash said:
Everyone is so different in how they process things, but sympathy and 'emotional support' from a vet would horrify me. Its the last thing I would want. When I had the pony PTS I used the farm vet (who'd never met him before) rather than the equine vet partly to avoid any likelihood of them being overly sympathetic.
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I feel the same - what I look for from professionals is facts, or if facts are not available their professional opinion, upon which I may base my decisions. Same with YO, I buy services from him which I like to be delivered professionally, but I do not expect sympathy if I am having difficulties with a horse. I would not expect them to be 'cold' when discussing difficult issues, but I would certainly not be expecting them to provide emotional support.
 
This is very useful one thing I have learnt is that as horse owners we need to prepare ourselves for difficult situations that may arise and have some idea of what we would do. It makes decision making easier when you are not put on the spot with an injured or ill horse and having to make snap decisions when you are at your most vulnerable.
 
In around the late 70's we had a vet whose answer to leg/lameness type problems was chuck the horse out in the field for 6 months. Whilst I may take a little more care than "just chucking it out" I think his advice was in reality very good.

I would be very hard pressed to box rest a horse for these type of problems. I did once and 3 colics later all at 3am he was chucked out on another vets advice.
 
paddy555 said:
In around the late 70's we had a vet whose answer to leg/lameness type problems was chuck the horse out in the field for 6 months. Whilst I may take a little more care than "just chucking it out" I think his advice was in reality very good.

I would be very hard pressed to box rest a horse for these type of problems. I did once and 3 colics later all at 3am he was chucked out on another vets advice.
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OP and I have the same vet practice and they are 'conservative' when it comes to their advice. I have wondered in the past whether they've had guidance from their own insurers to not go off plan with rehab suggestions. I haven't had one yet that was specific to the horse - which really wasn't helpful when they discharged my PSSM mare a couple of years back with a non PSSM friendly plan.

I have just chucked the microcob out in the field because stable, pen, 2 x one hour walks each day (which would have to be in hand because she has hurt her back) is not feasible. I planned the turnout to avoid as many galloping antics as possible and will live with the consequences if she makes herself worse. Three days in and there is no more heat in that leg than when she was on box rest.

OP - best of luck today. Dealing with all of this is stressful so remember to look after yourself too.
 
Gamebird said:
Definitely not the case!

I think it's probably worth mentioning that everyone draws the line in different places. And even the same person might draw the line in a different place on two different occasions. In scenarios where some people would PTS without question, others would choose treatment. As vets it is impossible to second guess people, so we always offer options. I have been surprised by clients' choices, and even those of people I knew quite well. Back in the day when I did some small animal work one of my farm clients, a chap that I knew pretty well and was as tough as Yorkshire farmers come, brought me in his working Collie with a fractured (completely smashed) back leg after she'd run under his tractor whilst he'd been feeding cattle. The dog was already at the end of its working life and half blind so in my head there was only one reason he'd brought it to me. Wrong! He wanted everything to be done and I ended up amputating the leg and the dog went on to live out its days as his pet. Similarly I've had what I'd consider to be pretty emotionally attached people, with the time, money and facilities to retire and horse in comfort, or to give it 6 months off in the field, request PTS for horses with minor injuries with a good prognosis for a return to work.

We cannot know what is going on in people's lives or what their attachments or priorities are. There is always a back story. They might have had a horse with this condition previously, and had bad experiences with treatment and have resolved never to go down that route again. Or the horse might be their only link to a deceased family member and they want to do whatever it takes. The day we start second guessing clients or removing options from the list because we don't think that the client will go for it will be a sad day. So we lay the options out and give as much information as possible, and let the client make the choice. It has to be that way. But we should always include PTS in that list if it is a reasonable option. Whether or not the client picks it depends entirely on where their own personal lines are drawn.
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Thank you - this is a really good post from the other side so to speak.
 
I think there's often a 'one size fits all' approach to managing a horse recovering from illness and injury, and it often focuses purely on their physical health.
I know some horses enjoy being in a stable, but for many it's psychological torture to be in a small space alone, separated from their friends, trapped.
For many injuries you get a more robust healing if the horse is moving around in a field.
 
SO1 said:
Thank you.

Vet coming between 12-1 so hopefully as this is lunch time I will be able to take the call.

I have briefed YO and said I don't want him to do a further 8 months of box rest if it is a soft tissue injury as that would mean 18 months of box rest back to back and I think that is too much for a 20 year old horse and I will retire or let him enjoy a final few months in the field over summer. Obviously this goes against what she would recommend and it is an emotive subject he is a lovely natured pony and a real yard favourite and long term resident. I have said I understand the risks of doing this and if it is soft tissue retirement or turn away may make it worse and lead to PTS. I love him very dearly and it is incredibly hard to make this sort of decision.

I am hoping it is just a bit of age related arthritis.
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best of luck and well done.
 
Upthecreek said:
I don’t want to sound harsh or insensitive to anyone dealing with an unwell or injured horse, but advances in diagnostics and treatment options has increased the pressure on horse owners to keep trying different treatments and feel horrendously guilty if they make the call that enough is enough without trying every option. Horse ownership was much simpler 20 plus years ago and the decision to retire or put to sleep was generally made much sooner before going through the many months of stress and anxiety people seem to be regularly going through these days. I can’t say I knew anyone back then that took their horse to an equine hospital for diagnostics, for example.

I have loved all the horses I’ve owned dearly and always tried to do right by them, but you have to protect yourself. If I found myself in the position of not being able to emotionally, physically or financially cope with a horse with long-term issues I would put to sleep if not field sound and happy. I don’t think that makes me, or anyone doing the same, selfish or cold hearted.
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This is me ...
Animals have no concept of the future, so there is no concept of putting up with things because you know it is for a better outcome. I would far rather that they had a good summer grazing and a dignified end, than wait for the moment they cannot get up any more, or the management of their lifestyle to prevent something, e.g. laminitis or severe sweet itch, compromises their quality of life.
 
Good news the vet has been and said nothing to worry about and he looks fine.

He had the farrier on Tuesday so that might be the cause of the problem if he lifted his legs and was a bit stiff from box rest. He did go a little stiff the last time the farrier came.

He has left some inflacam for him for a few days and said give that before riding and see how he goes.

Obviously he doesn't move like a 5 year old but he looks fine for where he is in his program and for age and considering he has been on box rest for so long.

He does not think it is worth investigating for arthritis at this stage. He is fully insured for arthritis if need be. I would be surprised if no arthritis at age 20 but there you go I do understand though that it is better to evaluate that when he is not on rehab and is back to his normal lifestyle and turnout.

I will get his saddle checked as well.

Phew what a relief.

I have been very lucky this time.
 
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SO1 said:
Good news the vet has been and said nothing to worry about and he looks fine.

He had the farrier on Tuesday so that might be the cause of the problem if he lifted his legs and was a bit stiff from box rest. He did go a little stiff the last time the farrier came.

He has left some inflacam for him for a few days and said give that before riding and see how he goes.

Obviously he doesn't move like a 5 year old but he looks fine for where he is in his program and for age and considering he has been on box rest for so long.

He does not think it is worth investigating for arthritis at this stage. He is fully insured for arthritis if need be. I would be surprised if no arthritis at age 20 but there you go I do understand though that it is better to evaluate that when he is not on rehab and is back to his normal lifestyle and turnout.

I will get his saddle checked as well.

Phew what a relief.

I have been very lucky this time.
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Excellent news. What’s the timescale for him being allowed back in the field?
 
I'm sorry to hear about your struggles OP - you are definitely not alone! My vet came out yesterday to assess my connie's stifles (routine visit to make sure we're on track) and after the visit he said he was absolutely dreading his next call which was causing him a lot of anxiety. He said the pony (a 5yo connie) has EMS and despite him telling the owner the pony's weight had to be managed very carefully the pony is now obese and suffering acute laminitis. Apparently the owner had previously lost another pony to laminitis so knew the score. This man clearly cares deeply about the equines he sees and I truly hope when it my connie's time to leave this world he is the vet who attends.
 
TotalMadgeness said:
. He said the pony (a 5yo connie) has EMS and despite him telling the owner the pony's weight had to be managed very carefully the pony is now obese and suffering acute laminitis. Apparently the owner had previously lost another pony to laminitis so knew the score.
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Why do people do this? I know someone whose had a string of laminitic ponies. None laminitic before arriving. Surely you learn after first one, barring odd accident.
 
bouncing_ball said:
Why do people do this? I know someone whose had a string of laminitic ponies. None laminitic before arriving. Surely you learn after first one, barring odd accident.
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I know - I'm baffled. So was the vet! One of my horses suffered mild laminitis a few years ago and I was horrified. Guess what? He hasn't suffered from it since - I've made damn sure of it! The vet also talked about the effect excess weight has on joints - which is another good point. Both of mine have joint problems and even with a slight increase in weight their movement becomes noticeably affected.
 
Upthecreek said:
I don’t want to sound harsh or insensitive to anyone dealing with an unwell or injured horse, but advances in diagnostics and treatment options has increased the pressure on horse owners to keep trying different treatments and feel horrendously guilty if they make the call that enough is enough without trying every option. Horse ownership was much simpler 20 plus years ago and the decision to retire or put to sleep was generally made much sooner before going through the many months of stress and anxiety people seem to be regularly going through these days. I can’t say I knew anyone back then that took their horse to an equine hospital for diagnostics, for example.

I have loved all the horses I’ve owned dearly and always tried to do right by them, but you have to protect yourself. If I found myself in the position of not being able to emotionally, physically or financially cope with a horse with long-term issues I would put to sleep if not field sound and happy. I don’t think that makes me, or anyone doing the same, selfish or cold hearted.
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Agree with you 100%. I will certainly not be doing long term rehab with mine if I am unable to ride. Been there done it, for years and years.
 
TotalMadgeness said:
I know - I'm baffled. So was the vet! One of my horses suffered mild laminitis a few years ago and I was horrified. Guess what? He hasn't suffered from it since - I've made damn sure of it! The vet also talked about the effect excess weight has on joints - which is another good point. Both of mine have joint problems and even with a slight increase in weight their movement becomes noticeably affected.
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There are many causes of laminitis other than weight.
 
I have only had one pony with laminitis, can it came back off loan with it. It was a 100kg, that not a mistake, over its normal weight tape body weight. Lovely family, sent with the instructions, if you think she is hungry let her eat straw, and she was in work for the summer doing PC. I could not believe it.
I think once their body has been stressed they are always going to be susceptible, and it takes less to tip them over. The same family had her the following year, and they managed to do it again, but she wasn't as bad and I only had to keep her on strict box rest for a week.
I like my ponies to be perhaps leaner than most people like, we never win in showing if the judge liked fat ponies. My youngster is growing and is a string bean, I see that as normal, some people would be piling the food in.
I have an old pony with EMS, which seams to have been fattened and starved, at some point has had laminitis, and again I try and keep him a bit lean. He lives out with others in summer on modified strip grazing, with the water trough at one end so they have to walk the whole length to drink.
 
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