Returning a horse not fit for purpose

Really nice update. Mares like these often turn into the nicest, sweetest creatures once you've formed a bond and they trust you. I look forward to more updates.
 
So glad it's working out for you both! It took me a while to bond with my haffy mare and I didn't face nearly as many problems as you have with yours. You've done brilliantly and I'm so pleased for you.
 
Cortez said:
I'm afraid you are experiencing a very common result of buying A. a trekking horse, which very likely IS 100% easy and quiet in that environment, but not when asked to perform a totally alien set of behaviours, and B. a Haflinger, which tend to be bargy, opinionated so-and-so's unless handled, fed and worked in a businesslike way. Rather than trying to return the horse, which may very well not be possible, why don't you get some experienced, professional help and learn how to manage the horse? It is possible: she is not a monster, just needs proper handling and management. See it as a challenge and a learning opportunity and you might just end up with a wonderful little horse that you can be proud of.
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Sorry, have not read all posts on here, but this horse/pony sounds EXACTLY like my boy when I first got him - on loan from a trekking centre.

Unfortunately horses that have been in a big herd like this only know one thing that that's to follow the bum ahead....... and when I bought my boy he'd never, to my knowledge, either seen the inside of a school OR gone out anywhere on his own!

So we had a lot of work to do!!!

OP...... I don't know your riding experience, but (forgive me) suspect you maybe are not the most confident rider????

IF you are determined to keep this horse (after all, you bought her because you presumably liked SOMETHING about her??) - then my advice would be to get some professional help ASAP. Its nothing to be ashamed of, and frankly with a situation like this you'll be unlikely to succeed unless you get the moral support of an expert/professional.

My advice (what worked for me) was to get someone who was highly skilled at looking at horse/rider partnership and having an open enough mind to try the thing that worked, i.e. a mixture of disciplines, but she does use a lot of Michael Peace's approach plus Intelligent Horsemanship. So you could have a look at those websites as that might kick off some ideas for you.

You will need to get this horse working on the ground first and foremost, to be polite, considerate and moving its feet where YOU say, and THEN and then only, progress to ridden work. The horse will need to accept you as "herd leader" and the reason she won't hack solo is because she isn't confident in you as herd leader - not yet anyway. She's afraid to go on her own without other horses around, which is a very natural reaction with horses as prey animals.

You need to get her confidence, and get started on the groundwork, but if you don't do groundwork right, i.e. firmly, politely and assertively, you'll only set in motion bad habits for later on. So important to get help NOW.

Please be assured that what you're experiencing is nothing new with horses from trekking centres! Believe me, I've been there, dunnit with my traddie boy. But by golly we've got there, he'll hack solo perfectly happily now without a murmer, whereas when I had him and tried to get him out on his own first he was just like the mare you're describing!!!

So........ get your expert/pro, but choose carefully! And accept that yes you WILL succeed with this horse, because I believe you can and will do so.

PS. You could also have a look at the Horse Agility website too; I went to a workshop Vanessa Bee did and some of the groundwork she was demonstrating with a really bolshy horse, was very valuable.

Good luck!
 
as an update to this post - I am right back at square one im afraid. I have spent the past 3 months with friends working on gorundwork with Lolli, have done join up with her and have acheived some great results whilst working with her in the small paddock we made.
However the last time I rode her out about a month ago - she jumped out in the middle of the road in front of an oncoming moped, napped and refused to move, bucked and kicked hell out of my friends horse. Refused to move again lots no matter what I did. Then bolted when she saw a tractor, bolted again when she saw a van x2. Spun and kicked hell out of my friends horse again. By this time I dismounted as my nerves where shot from being on her and almost coming off..then she spun and bolted again when a van came down the lane and ripped the leadrope from my hand.
So that put me off riding her - we went back to groundwork in the paddock and leading her out. Took her out one day and she was fine, very nappy to start off with but after 10/15 minutes she was relaxed and walking lovely. Then my friend took her for a lead walk and she once again reverted back to spinning and bolting whenever she saw traffic she didnt like. Took her out again another day and she was fine. More groundwork and trust building in the paddock. I took her out last week for a walk with her field mate which is my friends daughters pony. She was up on her toes, trotting all the way. Did my best to relax her by getting her to stop and back up then rewarding her with grazing which is a little system we have worked out so that she is happy and keeps listening to commands and relaxes. Then we got to the road and she grazed on the verge while waiting for my friend to get her horse ready. We set off following the others as she now has to be at the back as everyone is scared of her bucking in their faces....next thing I know she started spinning and trotting around me, bucking and threatening to rear and tossing her head. It was all i could do to hold her - traffic was stopped everywhere as she was dragging me out into the road. At one point she almost had me on the floor. Eventually (after the scariest 5 minutes of my life) she settled down again and we carried on. Nothing had set her off, there were only cars around so noting scared her.
I just cant cope with her anymore - some days she is fine but other days at any minute she just explodes and im so scared that either myself or one of my friends or even a member of the public is going to get seriously hurt.
On top of that the farmer went in the field the other day and she went up to him and then spun and bucked right in his face and almost caught him. My friend has also said her daughter is now too scared to go in the field to see her pony because lolli has also done this to her as well.
I dont know what else to do anymore.
Im going to phone for more legal advise in the morning from the BHS and see what they suggest as my partner thinks I have ruined any chances of success in the small claims court by leaving it so long but I have explained that I needed to try and I also think I needed to give her more time to adjust to the move and to settle in. However - I am not willing to put myself in such danger any more for a horse that I cant do anything with - let alone all the things I was promised by the seller I would be able to do.
I will keep you updated as if the BHS say theres no point me going to court then I will just have to cut my losses finanically and see if anyone would be willing to take her on as a project or a companion - obvioulsy i would make them fully aware of all the issues.
So sorry its not a more positve update but I thought it might be useful for other people in a similar situation
 
first thing i thought when rrading your post is that animal needs to be shot before it does some real damage sorry op i also dont think there is any point in trying to get your money back.

i feel for you i really do but you need to put yours and other peoples saftey first if a dog was acting this upredictable and down right dangerous it would have been shot weeks ago.

have a hug
 
What do the people who helped you out before say? Are they still involved?

What happens sometimes with problem ponies is that the owner gets good professional help and thinks that the pony is "fixed" they treat it as normal and then after a few weeks/months the pony reverts. With problem ponies especially strong willed types like haflingers you need to keep on top of them every day. You will need to keep up regular sessions with your professional and learn how to remain in charge everytime you handle this pony. You may also need to make sure that others know how to deal with her or avoid them having to handle her.
 
I do feel for you. You've tried so hard and put in so much work, no one can say that you haven't done your best because you have.

I bought a nightmare after a long time from horses too. It's cost a lot, in my time, in heartache and pain, but we made it. I look back and can't believe how far we have come. I'm so proud of her and that's considering that if someone had put a gun in my hand at the start I would of gladly shot her and I'm not joking!

I'm stubborn and she's beautiful and that's what saved us I think. Time, reading her, learning to trust and persistence did it and we've both learnt so much from each other in that time. You've either got to dig in your heels OP and keep banging
away or throw in the towel now because its a long hard road you'll be embarking
on, although the rewards are priceless.

As for returning her i really dont know how you would stand now?
Good luck OP
in whatever you decide.
 
Every day you keep a horse like this costs you money .
Cut your loses quickly.
Take a break put it behind you and be more careful next time .
 
What a shame as it sounded like you were getting somewhere with her.

Firstly you need to come up with a plan to make sure that everyone is safe until you decide what you are going to do with her. I would try and section her off in her own paddock so that other people can come and go safely without risk that they will get kicked.

Secondly I think you need to have a bit of a break. She'll be fine without being ridden/schooled for a bit. You need to be calm and clear headed when you try and tackle her problems not at breaking point. It will also give you a chance to think about whether you do want to continue to work out her issues or PTS. Either option is understandable in this situation and you shouldn't feel bad if you do decide to PTS. I wouldn't sell her on, even as a companion. She is dangerous and you are asking to be manipulated by an unscrupulous person that will pretend to want her as a companion and then sell on for profit and put someone else's life at risk..

If you do decide to continue working with her then I think you need to get a professional in rather than get friends to help. I'm sure plenty of people will be able to advise of someone suitable in your area. This professional should work on both you and the horse so that you acquire the skills necessary to cope with her behaviour.

Good luck. Horrible situation for you to be in.
 
OP so sorry for you - horrid situation. All I can say is please ensure you are wearing a hat and gloves when you handle your mare. I would also only ever handle her in a pressure headcollar or rope halter. I would get a natural horsemanship trainer out to make an assessment for you and help you decide your next step. Good luck.
 
havent read entire thread but do remember the original post-if she genuinely is ok as a trekking pony would the original trekking centre(or another) take her back for free rather than PTS? at least that way the pony leads a useful life?
 
Its probably been great at the follow along job, never on its own but bored out of its brain, but if its been good why were they getting rid of it ? Did you try the pony doing the job you wanted it to do,hack out on your own before you bought the pony ?
I do think the sold as seen might be a stumbling block for you but if youre a BHS gold member get advice now. Did you vet pony before buying, speak to the vet before you pay money out for checks ? Its very difficult to say what to do without seeing the pony.
If youre a novice you may not want to ride through the behaviour but if its not physical, and you wont know unless checked, that sounds like what it might need. Get yourself a good instructor or rider who is good with horses with problems to help you with the pony.My experience with halflingers is that they can be very stubborn, yes i know we shouldnt type a breed but its been my experience of them. bolshy, bargy and rude if they can get away with it. If you dont want to jump on, and you have the skills, lunge and long line pushing through the behaviour issues then get a sticky bum rider to ride it through, and hack out a good few times for you. A friend had one just as you describe dragged us off our feet when initially off loaded and would happily run over you to get to what she wanted and with some ground work and rider perseverance she turned into a nice pony ridden by complete novices.
Sorry if this isnt helpful as i didnt have time to read all posts, skimmed and seen youve had more issues, hope you get resolution soon whatever you decide
 
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After reading today's update , it sounds as if there is something seriously wrong with this horse. I have only known horses behave like yours through head pain. One was caused by food intolerance, one by back issues and another by a brain tumour. If not already done, I'd cut out all foods, including supplements/treats, except grass/hay and get a really good vet/chiro to check the back/neck/poll. If nothing is found then I would sadly pts. There are some things that just can't be fixed, sadly.
 
Thank you for the update. You have really tried with this pony, take BHS advice, and go from there.

Your options are limited as others have said, a pony who is likely to cause harm to people entering its field is a real worry, and not suitable as a companion pony.

If you pass her on you risk someone coming back at you claiming she is worse than you said, one solution is pts and this would not be wrong given what has already happened. The second option is to find a professional who can work with the pony and sort its problems out, probably an expensive option.

You have been put in a really difficult situation but remember owning a pony is ment to be fun and a pleasure, there are lots of lovely young native ponies in rehoming rescue centres who would be properly assessed and much easier to manage.
 
You've tried long and hard to make things work with this mare and I'm full of admiration for you. However, I think you should call it a day now. Making the decision to stop is the hard part but can be a relief.

I've never seen your mare but I'm wondering whether she would settle in a riding school. The reason is, that she may find the routine and predictability of RS life reassuring and similar in some respects to the trekking centre.
A good RS owner is experienced with an ability to read a horse, and the amount of work she gets, could be a saving grace for her.
No disrespect to you, you've been marvellous, but an asbo horse sometimes just needs to find a home that she understands.
 
I thought the reason she was sold was that she wasn't particularly great for use in the RS/trekking. (OP finding this out after purchase)
 
If it were me I would have her PTS to be honest. If the horse is dangerous to the point that it is kicking out at head level at humans and they are scared to go in a field with it let alone trying to do anything more and you have given time and attention in trying to rectify the issues and got nowhere then in my mind PTS is best. There are plenty of decent horses out there desperate for a good home in this rubbish market and personally I don't see the point in persevering to the point of injury or worse with a horse that may well have a brain tumour. You could pursue with the vendor as I understand money is an issue but perhaps it is better to cut losses now rather than going through further stress/money for keep until you do or don't get somewhere with vendor. I would be wary of rehoming if the horse is dangerous; how many truly 'expert' homes are there out there really? I really feel for you; a very difficult decision and it sounds like you have really tried with her.
 
wakijaki said:
sorry im not good on forums for being able to quote and reply properly so will try to add what i can about questions asked / points raised.
She misbehaved at trekking center - bucked children off in the school and was described as grumpy - when i asked what this meant i was told she got fed up with children fussing around her all the time and would put her ears back and move away but never did anything like bite or kick.
She has had 4 homes in 4 years and i managed to get in touch with her owner before the trekking center and she told me she bought her from 2 novices that couldnt do anything with her at all. It took her a while to settle her in but she worked fine, loved hacking but would buck after half hour or more in the school so wasn't suitable for her children. She said before that she was used as a brood mare and before that she was broken to drive first and ride afterwards.
So honestly dont think she has ever really done that much work.
I did 2 years of diplomas in equine studies and work experinece at hunting, racing yards, studs and trekking centers ect when i was younger. I then had a long break due to children and work and last year started helping a friend out on her yard. 3 ponies - 1 i rode all the time hacking out and leading the others from and also a 17.2 tb x ID. I was hacking out and looking after all these on a day to day basis - alone for 8 months before they said they were selling them all to buy two new ones so i thought it was time to get my own.
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It was this post just so you can see what was said rather than taking it from me!
 
thanks to you all for your replies. As i have now left it 3 months since contacting the seller and giving her 14 day notice to collect the horse then I was worried that I would of ruined my chances of winning the case. However I contacted the bhs again and they said that would be fine - i can argue that I was waiting for the seller to do the right thing and also that with it being a horse and not 'goods' I can also argue that I thought maybe she needed more time to settle in.
As advised by the bhs i have given the seller a further 7 days notice to refund and collect before starting court proceedings. However - after seeking more advise and speaking to people who have done this Im really not sure its the way to go. The people that have won thier cases all have different stories - some have had the cost back as well as any incurred costs for keeping the horse and some have even still ended up with the horse as well as the money back because the seller wouldnt take the horse back - so they have then used the money to seek help with the horse or rehomed it as a companion. However there are others that won, the horse went back and then they never got their money back so they were left with no horse and no money.
It does seem to be a minefield out there either way. Also with it coming up to the 6 months then after that expires I would have to prove the horse is behaving in the manner I say she is - whereas If i had followed through with it 3 months ago it would of been up to the seller to prove what a brilliant horse she sold me.
So at the moment I am still not sure what route to go down. I have been advised to get her assessed by an independent behavioural expert however I cant find one in wales so am wondering if a vet would be able to do this so will look into this.
At the moment with her living out she only needs basic daily checks and handling and everyone knows now if they go into the field to take a carrot stick with them to chase her away so as not to give her the chance to spin and buck.
Will keep you all updated as it helps to have someone outside to talk to and to get different views and opinions
 
Good luck with finding a solution with the seller. There are behaviourists in Wales, you could try one of the Kelly Marks Intelligent Horsemeanship associates or perhaps someone on here can recommend a contact. A quick google showed a lady called Jenni Nellist ( Don't know her though,) whose charges are very reasonable and does zone days where no travel costs are incurred.
 
onemoretime said:
Have a read of this. You will see that "sold as seen" does not mean a lot.

http://www.edmondsonhall.com/page/1r6ef/Home/partner.html
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That is a good article but should be read right through to the end, especially that bit about a receipt stating exactly what is expected of the horse and the purpose for which it is bought. Then, that should be signed and dated by both parties, each keeping a copy.

I may be wrong, but if both parties sign a statement saying that a horse is "Sold as seen' that is exactly the condition on which the horse is sold!

For example, a horse owner dies and his executors (who know nothing about horses) sell it "out of the field as seen". Would it really be reasonable for a purchaser to assume it was an excellent riding horse totally free of vice or defect? I think that is assuming too much. But I could be wrong.

Always always always get it in writing, even between good friends.
 
Just to update any one following this threat to the latest developments....as advised by the BHS and various people I today phoned up the Citizens Advice Bureau and they advised me the same as the BHS and said they would pass my details on to Trading Standards.
I wasn't even expecting them to contact me but while I was at work tonight they rang and spoke to my other half and From what I can gather - the seller didn't register my horse to be worked in the trekking center at all. Seems as if each horse gets inspected yearly and has to pass a vet inspection and if used for treks and lessons it has to be named and checked as fit and safe to do so...being that they will come into contact with members of the public, some of whom might of never been around a horse before.
So from what they told my other half - if they can use my help to prove the seller used my horse in the center they will prosecute her as its not the first time they have received complaints about her.
Im also concerned that for someone who regually buys and sells horses the passport she gave me with my horse hasnt been updated since 2009 and is in fact a gypsy cob socitey passport.....surely this is also a strike against her considering she had the horse for well over a year?
Can anyone enlighten me on this as I have to wait til monday til I can speak to the woman from the council myself
 
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