Rider too heavy

[Melody Grey]

Get the feeling that OP is a trainer. Sorry me derailing it with large rider on too small horse + saddle fitting issue ?

No apology required

in that case.... “I’m sorry, I cannot envisage you being a good fit for Dobbin. I feel he would be much better suited to a smaller/ shorter/ lighter rider.”

I once got round an awkward situation like this where a larger adult was asking about what length stirrup leathers they would require for a pony which was ancient and much, much too small for her. I said that her leathers from a bigger horse were x length but asked what size of child would be riding.

 

[webble]

Can you just say that the horse is too small for the rider rather than the other way around

 

[ycbm]

I am going to drop her a message and say that I don’t think the horse is ready for ridden work yet and suggest the working from the ground plan and see how she takes that, she might say no thank you and problem solved for me. And if she’s going to be like that me telling her she’s too heavy for her horse isn’t going to make any difference. Hopefully she is keen and I can help them both.

I think you've got it spot on here, for her and for your business.

If you are going to mention the 20% rule as people have suggested, then it needs saying that it's the absolute maximum for a fit, healthy, fully mature horse, not an ideal.

 

[TPO]

I don't know of this is relevant to the thread but one thing that jumped out to me is that this person also has an overweight horse.

I don't know what my actual point is (surprise, surprise!) but there's something going on when owners are not aware of the damage that excess weight causes a horse. There appears to be a misunderstanding that if, for example, a should be 500kg horse is 700kg then the 20% is of the 700kg. Rather than acknowledging that the horse is already carrying an extra 200kg.

No idea the weight or extent that the horse in OP is overweight by but the owner appears a bit blinded to the effects of that. Having overweight horses can be a welfare issue and people have been prosecuted for it.

Maybe rose tinted classes but I can't remember overweight riders, horses, dogs, children, etc being as common as it appears to be now.

 

[PapaverFollis]

We've completely normalised people and animals being overweight. It's actually a bit distressing.

I honestly think it is high time we all stopped being polite about it. But actually breaking the increasing taboo and being blunt is incredibly hard.

Maybe try,

"I'm really happy to keep working on the groundwork with you and Neddy, you're both lovely and a fun partnership to work with, but I'm not comfortable giving ridden lessons at the moment as I feel you simply weigh too much for Neddy to carry right now. I am sorry to be a bit blunt and I understand it is hard to lose weight but I have a duty of care to your horse and I don't think you riding him at the current time is fair or healthy for him."

 

[Shilasdair]

I dislike terms like 'too heavy' in riding.
All riders are technically too heavy for their horses - no weight is beneficial to them.
So who decides 'too heavy' - and what is the scientific definition? 15% of horse's weight? 10%? 20%? Does it vary with novice/advanced skill levels?

I don't mean to be unkind here, but I don't think the rider weight is any of your business - nor are you the authority to decide that someone is 'too heavy' or 'too tall' etc. in absolute terms.

In personal terms, however, you may consider her 'too heavy' for YOU to train - and if this is the case, I suggest tactfully becoming fully booked or unavailable etc. Or you can tell her she's fat - and she may be (I am) but it won't do your reputation much good.

 

[HorseyTee]

I know it can be a touchy subject, but if it was me, I wouldn't be offended if someone professional, who I'd asked for help, told me that currently me and my horse weren't a good match due to me being heavier than they could comfortably carry with their current fitness and being too heavy themselves. Especially if I'd already expressed that I was aware I was needing to lose some weight.
If it's said in a kind, supportive way, then it's up to the other person if they want to get all offended.

 

[FFAQ]

I've actually been on the receiving end of the 'you're too heavy' comments. Thankfully I had already drawn that conclusion for myself and was doing a lot of walking in hand and ground work instead. In my case I was 13 stone and my cob was 15.2 but with arthritis in his hocks. If it wasn't for the arthritis I probably would have ridden, but I felt that keeping him moving without extra weight on top was the way to go.
One person told me i was too heavy for her pony - fine, but I hadn't asked to ride it! So that annoyed me a bit.
One person suggested that walking in hand would improve my fitness as well as my horse's. That was quite a nice way of putting it.
The third person was the horse's physio who agreed with me when I told her my thinking.

In my case I was aware that I was overweight and very conscious about the welfare of the horse, so I wasn't particularly hurt by their comments (apart from the first one) because they weren't made with malicious intent, simply agreeing with my own assessment. The first person felt a bit like fat shaming.

 

[AWinter]

Thank you for all the replies this is really useful. I’ve slept on it and I’m going to have a good chat with her about how to move forward, if she doesn’t like what I have to say then I’m sure she’ll just do what other people do when I tell them their horses are lame and need a vet, nod along then I never hear from them again hahaha.

 

[nagblagger]

If she is aware of her weight problem, and responds positively to your suggestions, could you offer to work with her while training the horse and record both their weight loss, it might be the motivation and support she needs, in a postive way, with an end goal of fitter horse and healthy rider.

 

[J&S]

If she is aware of her weight problem, and responds positively to your suggestions, could you offer to work with her while training the horse and record both their weight loss, it might be the motivation and support she needs, in a postive way, with an end goal of fitter horse and healthy rider.

I was thinking very much along these lines, suggesting fittening them both, to be a better fit. Your rider will feel so much better in the end and the horse will beneifit from loss of his/her weight and loss of rider's weight. WinWin.

 

[TPO]

I was thinking very much along these lines, suggesting fittening them both, to be a better fit. Your rider will feel so much better in the end and the horse will beneifit from loss of his/her weight and loss of rider's weight. WinWin.

This

Plus the more the horse loses the more his capacity to comfortably carry weight increases. So there's motivation to keep up his fitness programme and increase both their steps etc

 

[Surbie]

Yeh I feel like I need to make it clear now.... I don’t want her to feel embarrassed. It just is what it is.

It’s the typical scenario I think of overweight rider on an overweight cob so they think the horse is fine carrying them because they look “stocky”.

I would never ever fat shame anyone, you do you, everyone deserves love and respect but if you want to ride on the back of an animal then you need to ensure it can comfortably carry you..

Thank you for all the replies this is really useful. I’ve slept on it and I’m going to have a good chat with her about how to move forward, if she doesn’t like what I have to say then I’m sure she’ll just do what other people do when I tell them their horses are lame and need a vet, nod along then I never hear from them again hahaha.

I think, if you choose to say something, how you choose to say it might be the difference between having an ongoing relationship with them and creating the best solution for horse & rider or never hearing from them again & achieving nothing.

Your relationship with your client is so new I assume you don't know what is behind their current weight, how much they are aware of it, what they might be doing to address it. if anything. Personally I don't feel being blunt and all gung-ho about it has much chance of working when you don't know them at all.

Fittening and strengthening both sounds like a very easy, open approach to the subject.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Even if she doesn't respond well immediately, telling the truth in a straightforward but kind way may well plant the seed that is the catalyst to a healthier, happier life for her. You could be doing her a favour.

I was getting really heavy until we had a physio out to the horses and although she didn't say anything directly she dropped enough of a hint (that I wouldn't want to be that much bigger basically) that I was motivated to take action. I started running again and shifted half a stone in about 9 months and that has progressed into completely changing what I eat and shifting almost another two stone in about 6 weeks ?. The physio didn't need to be direct with me because I wasn't actually too heavy for the horse but I was heading that way and she drew my attention to it. I wasn't in any way offended. Fat is just fat, factual, not a moral judgement. We live in an environment and have food available that makes it extremely difficult NOT to get a bit podgy at some point in our lives! It just happens and we need to get over it and be able to be honest about it. AND we need the knowledge and tools to do something about it.

 

[maya2008]

I have seen this done well, where the trainer managed to convince the owner they needed a different horse (for a lot of reasons - weight wasn’t mentioned) and then steered the owner towards larger equines when they went looking. Owner and horse ended up happy with better suited partners.

 

[AWinter]

I think, if you choose to say something, how you choose to say it might be the difference between having an ongoing relationship with them and creating the best solution for horse & rider or never hearing from them again & achieving nothing.

Your relationship with your client is so new I assume you don't know what is behind their current weight, how much they are aware of it, what they might be doing to address it. if anything. Personally I don't feel being blunt and all gung-ho about it has much chance of working when you don't know them at all.

Fittening and strengthening both sounds like a very easy, open approach to the subject.

No of course, I didn’t mean I would be blunt about it, but I do need to address it, was definitely planning to use the phrase “fitter” and emphasise the horse’s weaknesses and how it will help.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Heavy people know they are heavy, you don’t buy large size clothes and not notice. I don’t think we are unable to react to size rationally at either end of the scale tbh. And there’s a lot of bs about people riding lightly-you cannot physically ride lighter than you weigh, you can only ride heavier. You pointing this out to her might be the catalyst she needs to do something about it.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I would say “at the moment, I think this particular horse isn’t able to carry you properly and I’d be concerned about long term soundness if we kept up ridden work. I’m very happy to help you shop for something which is more suitable but if you want to keep this horse, we can work on groundwork to strengthen the horse and I can also recommend some exercise plans for you, if that’s something you’re interested in.”

 

[Sandstone1]

Can you explain the 20% equation to her and say about allowing for tack etc, and then say something like " so that means he can carry so and so stones. Maybe that will make her think.

 

[criso]

I would say “at the moment, I think this particular horse isn’t able to carry you properly and I’d be concerned about long term soundness if we kept up ridden work. I’m very happy to help you shop for something which is more suitable but if you want to keep this horse, we can work on groundwork to strengthen the horse and I can also recommend some exercise plans for you, if that’s something you’re interested in.”

I was thinking something similar emphasising saying at the moment I would want to limit the weight this horse can carry at its current physical condition. Add we can work on groundwork to strengthen the horse and introduce the idea that a lighter rider would be helpful but I'd want to do that face to face. Both horse and rider have a plan and something to work towards.

The problem with being too blunt is she may just go elsewhere and find an instructor who will just take the money and not say anything which won't help the horse long term.

 

[AWinter]

All really helpful thanks guys.

I was thinking something similar emphasising saying at the moment I would want to limit the weight this horse can carry at its current physical condition. Add we can work on groundwork to strengthen the horse and introduce the idea that a lighter rider would be helpful but I'd want to do that face to face. Both horse and rider have a plan and something to work towards.

The problem with being too blunt is she may just go elsewhere and find an instructor who will just take the money and not say anything which won't help the horse long term.

This is great phrasing thank you.

I have found through my work that with some people they will always go elsewhere if you don’t give them an answer they like and it doesn’t really matter how gently and kindly you explain it. Usually it’s me explaining to them the horse needs investigating for pain/lameness which is a sensitive enough topic alone, especially when people have come from other trainers who have never mentioned they think anything is wrong. I’ve lost several clients through this but I won’t work through pain, so if that’s what they want they need to go elsewhere, all I can do is offer my opinion and after that it’s unfortunately out of my hands. I think we all know for many people it’s a case of why go with a professional who’s telling me I need to have these investigations and back off riding when I can just pay another professional who will tell me how great I am and how naughty my horse is and I can absolutely keep jumping and doing what I want and he’s just taking the piss. I still think about these horses often and it upsets me to see them carry on but that’s a whole different topic but I guess it’s in a similar vein.

 

[Melody Grey]

I was thinking very much along these lines, suggesting fittening them both, to be a better fit. Your rider will feel so much better in the end and the horse will beneifit from loss of his/her weight and loss of rider's weight. WinWin.

This is a really good suggestion providing that a match of horse and rider lie within the realms of possibility. The case I mentioned above was regarding a 15 stone (being conservative) lady and an out of condition, twenty odd year old 12hh pony with unmanaged cushings.....an unviable combination under any circumstances!

 

[Melody Grey]

All really helpful thanks guys.


This is great phrasing thank you.

I have found through my work that with some people they will always go elsewhere if you don’t give them an answer they like and it doesn’t really matter how gently and kindly you explain it. Usually it’s me explaining to them the horse needs investigating for pain/lameness which is a sensitive enough topic alone, especially when people have come from other trainers who have never mentioned they think anything is wrong. I’ve lost several clients through this but I won’t work through pain, so if that’s what they want they need to go elsewhere, all I can do is offer my opinion and after that it’s unfortunately out of my hands. I think we all know for many people it’s a case of why go with a professional who’s telling me I need to have these investigations and back off riding when I can just pay another professional who will tell me how great I am and how naughty my horse is and I can absolutely keep jumping and doing what I want and he’s just taking the piss. I still think about these horses often and it upsets me to see them carry on but that’s a whole different topic but I guess it’s in a similar vein.

Re: professionals that work with lame horses, my last yard had a visiting instructor who never mentioned anything untoward. Of the five horses she worked with there, all (to my eye) looked lame in some way and the school surface was awful and possibly responsible....but she just kept on taking the money and even sold one rider a new horse when theirs broke down ?‍

 

[AWinter]

Re: professionals that work with lame horses, my last yard had a visiting instructor who never mentioned anything untoward. Of the five horses she worked with there, all (to my eye) looked lame in some way and the school surface was awful and possibly responsible....but she just kept on taking the money and even sold one rider a new horse when theirs broke down ?‍

oh it’s so terrible, there’s one very large DIY livery yard I go to and I would say most of the horses are lame, but from the riding and teaching that goes on in the arena when I’m there I’m not surprised. Very sad, a lot of screeching and kicking and yanking, absolutely no eye or explanation to riders of what healthy movement is or what they’re looking to achieve beyond get him forward and get his head in. It’s very sad.

I’ve had a few instances at this particular yard where I’ve been riding one horse then been approached by someone else because they like what they see, I’ve then got on their horse to give my opinion, one particular gelding is still in my head who was just the most gentle thing but absolutely screaming in pain tbh, not sound at all behind, felt like he was about to explode, couldn’t let go of the contact or even wrap your leg around without him jogging, (told me he’d decked her twice onto concrete on mounting after I’d already got on thanks for that). I have learnt how to tentatively broach these subjects and I find myself saying “do you want me to be honest?” a lot. This gelding had been under their instructor weekly for years and called pig-headed and all sorts, stronger bit, hammered round, had them out “competing” elementary dressage even though he couldn’t trot a circle on a long rein without rushing off.

When nobody has ever mentioned to these people that something might be off with their horse, it’s difficult for me to then go in and say I think there are several issues here and I think your horse is in pain, it’s hard for people to hear. They did have the horse scoped and treated for ulcers but none of the lameness was ever addressed, they sent him to a trainer who rode him through hard for a few weeks, said how thrilled they were with him, he then decked them twice at home again and is now retired. It’s very sad and it didn’t need to be that way, this is the really difficult side of working in the industry, but it’s hard to change when there are so many professionals out there who teach this way.

Totally off on a tangent there but hey it’s a discussion forum.

 

[Regandal]

Good luck. I know of one person who is too heavy for any horse. All the pro’s they employ seem to have taken a vow of silence and keep on taking the money. Body worker, saddle fitter, instructor, vet……….. Poor horse.

 

[SO1]

How about something like.

I enjoyed working with you and I think both of you are great. However as you are paying for my professional opinion it would be remiss of me not to mention that I don't think as a ridden combination this horse is going to work for you at moment as it is not correct size for you. I am happy to continue to help with ground work but I feel it would not be in your best interests for me to teach you as a ridden combination.

Unfortunately there are a lot of professionals who will take her money who cannot afford to upset clients.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Heavy people know they are heavy, you don’t buy large size clothes and not notice.

I'm not so sure. 63% of the UK population is now overweight or obese. Being fat has become normalised.

As a rider, I'd appreciate a frank conversation about whether I was too heavy for my horse.

As it happens, I take my riding weight and fitness seriously. I've embarked on a fitness program and have shifted 3 stone to get down to the lightest I've been in nearly 30 years (just over 11 stone @ 5'10") in order to get back on my wonky mare after her pelvic injury.

If fully fit she'd carry a lot more than 11 stone as she's a weight carrying IDx, but I'm doing my best to help her.

 

[Shilasdair]

Am I going mad - or did the NHS change the BMI ranges for obesity so that more people fell into that category?
That would mean historical comparisons may not be accurate.

 

[hollyandivy123]

on the working together scenario

" as a trainer i like to work with both the horse and rider to improve and harmonise, because dobbin has a lot of coverage, i rather than put un necessary stress on his back and joints (bring in saddle pressure points and various joints) think for that dobbin needs to start with a lot of ground work, long reining both in walk and trot. we need to increase dobbins core and flexibility"

if one of your other clients goes to exercise class x you might be also to include that we saw an improvement with dobbin 2, when the rider gained more balance have you looked at doing something like this Pilates yoga ladies rugby............ once this rider had improved their core balance then dobbin improved something or other"

i think your client knows and sometimes like everyone needs a nudge

but i am not the most subtle person in the world, judging at a show once i ended up getting the show secretary because a rider was very very over weight for the her 13.2 fine show pony, you could say i was before my time!

 

[The Bouncing Bog Trotter]

It's a potential minefield.

Interesting that a couple of cases of being overly physically robust with a horse that is saying no results in huge discussion and formal action against the rider, leader or trainer, but the long term riding of horse by a rider that is too heavy and causing sustained physical harm to a horse (not saying that this is the case in this post) causes discussion about not wanting to upset the rider.

Where is the line to be drawn on what abuse is 'allowed' because we can't hurt a human's feelings?