Rider too heavy

[LadyGascoyne]

Obviously don’t want to give too much specific info but horse is an overweight 15hh cob and I think has been told heavy cob= weight carrier and yes to a point but she is sitting right on the cantle due to her size, we are having another groundwork session next week and I will discuss in depth then, will let you know.
Thanks for all the thoughts and advice.

This sounds like a different issue to me, factoring in this last post.

In general, a 15hh cob (putting aside the unfortunate fact that it is overweight) should be the sort of thing that would carry weight best. Do you think he’d carry her if he lost the weight and was fit? Or if they found a different saddle so she was sitting correctly?

Considering that larger animals are often weaker and poorer weight-carriers, is there realistically a horse that will carry this person comfortably?

It doesn’t sound like this person is blissfully unaware of their weight and has chosen an unsuitable horse, or that the horse they have is particularly light. It sounds like this person knows they need a weight-carrier, they have found a horse that should - on paper - be able to do the job. And they are still too heavy.

If that is the situation, I would step away as a trainer because it sounds like a weight issue rather than an unsuitable horse issue. To my mind, that would be territory for a different kind of professional.

I really do feel for them as it seems they are aware of the issue and have taken steps to mitigate it in their horse choice.

I think society has done a horribly unfair job for people who are overweight. I totally agree that we should challenge all social limitations for people who are overweight. However, there appears to be a mass delusion that physical limitations fall into the same bucket and, unless we learn to hack gravity, it is simply just not the case.

 

[AWinter]

If they lost weight they would fit the horse fine but I think it would have to be a considerable amount. They have told me they are a very nervous rider so perhaps they will be happy to work on the ground for the foreseeable, not sure how much of it is feeling they should be riding the horse rather than actually wanting to ride the horse at the moment due to pressure from others.

 

[Littlebear]

I know this can be a sensitive subject but there is the possibility that people won't be offended by it, I worry a lot about my weight even though my horse is plenty big enough for me, I am conscious of it.

If my instructor or any other professional said that the horse would benefit from me losing a few lbs I would take it on the chin and if I agreed get on with sorting that out, I think quite a few people I know would be exactly the same and actually I would respect someone very much for being so direct. I do really like the black and white of some people though where I guess some can be sensitive.

What I am saying is there is the consideration that just being direct could work absolutely fine for everyone.

 

[Birker2020]

I know this can be a sensitive subject but there is the possibility that people won't be offended by it, I worry a lot about my weight even though my horse is plenty big enough for me, I am conscious of it.

If my instructor or any other professional said that the horse would benefit from me losing a few lbs I would take it on the chin and if I agreed get on with sorting that out, I think quite a few people I know would be exactly the same and actually I would respect someone very much for being so direct. I do really like the black and white of some people though where I guess some can be sensitive.

What I am saying is there is the consideration that just being direct could work absolutely fine for everyone.

It's very hard to know what to say. I am conscious I'm overweight but I am trying my hardest to lose the weight but know I am fine on my horse. BUt I'd like to be more than fine if I'm being honest. Would I be offended if someone said I was overweight? Yes I probably would but then I know I am far too sensitive for my own good

I know people who are heavier than me. One knows she is heavy and has always admitted she is. Another never says anything about her weight, but she is a super confident person who would never dare self criticise. I wish I could be more like her.

 

[Red-1]

Am I going mad - or did the NHS change the BMI ranges for obesity so that more people fell into that category?
That would mean historical comparisons may not be accurate.

I gad a Google and found this from a non professional, about changing BMI. Couldn't find anything about changes to the upper limits tho...

"
The change to include 18.5 to 20 in the healthy range was made, primarily, to accommodate shorter women and Asian populations.

Considering that the average height for women in parts of Asia including China is 5 ft or less, US/Canada 5ft 4", Europe 5ft 6", Mexico 5ft 2", it is a pretty safe bet to say that someone over 5ft and a bit would probably not fall under the shorter women category.

Based on various bmi revision discussions about people 5ft and under getting an "extra" BMI point, I would suspect the change was primarily aimed to accommodate people who are 5ft or less.

I've also seen pregnancy healthy weight gain guidelines treating sub 20 bmi differently.

In all, I strongly suspect that few women substantially taller than 5ft do as well in the 18.5 to 20 range as they would at 20 or above. "

......................................................................................

As regards the OP, when I was training, I would say if the weight ratio wasn't correct. But, I would always say that I felt the horse was too small/unfit/ physically compromised, rather than that the rider was faulty.

As to losing a client, TBH I would rather be slated for that than slated for teaching a horse/rider combination that was to the horse's detriment. I "sacked" a few clients, where I had suggested that the horse needed vet investigation if it were to continue to be ridden, and it was then presented for a lesson, still lame, with no investigation done. I would always blame it on myself, as in, "I'm not happy to teach you on this horse while he is unlevel in his gait, as I am concerned he may be in pain," as this is factual as opposed to me diagnosing lameness.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I'm a firm believer that just because a horse "can" cope with carrying a heavier rider, doesn't mean that they should.
I say this as someone who has battled with my own weight issues. I'm 5ft1 and lost over 2 stone previously, and I'm now down to 9.5st. Although my weight occasionally fluctuates by a few lbs, I work very hard to make sure I remain under 10st.
My smallest horse, a 13.2 Welsh pony could comfortably carry more than I weigh. He is a chunky type and is hunting fit, but just because he can doesn't mean he should.
Riding is a privilege and while I don't agree with fat shaming, horses welfare comes above everything else, including our personal feelings. I think we owe it to our horses to make every effort to keep our weight in check.

 

[Littlebear]

It's very hard to know what to say. I am conscious I'm overweight but I am trying my hardest to lose the weight but know I am fine on my horse. BUt I'd like to be more than fine if I'm being honest. Would I be offended if someone said I was overweight? Yes I probably would but then I know I am far too sensitive for my own good

I know people who are heavier than me. One knows she is heavy and has always admitted she is. Another never says anything about her weight, but she is a super confident person who would never dare self criticise. I wish I could be more like her.

But, I guess my wonder (and what the op would need to consider) is if you are sensitive and initially offended .....what happens next?

You start by being a little hurt etc which is understandable, but where does your thought trail then take you? Would you think, ok they have a point lets crack on and improve the situation and be thankful someone had the balls to say something, maybe after the dust settles think yes, the horse would be better off with me a little lighter. Or would it push you another direction?

I also don't buy that anyone is so self confident if they are riding and overweight that they don't ever self criticise, we all do, even if its tucked away in private.

 

[Tarragon]

I think that if you believe that once both the pony and the lady both lost weight and could be a good partnership, then I would work on the angle of using ground-work to help build up the core muscles of the pony and educate the lady into the right mind-set to want to get it right. As a rider of ponies, I am making sure that I get everything right for my new unbacked 6-year old pony so that his back is as strong as it can be before I get on, and I am only doing this because my excellent trainer has given me the knowledge I need to both understand the problem and give me the tools to address it.
If you think it would never work, then I suggest a tactful approach to pointing out that the pony isn't suitable/too small is the only way to go. It may not be the end of your relationship with her as you could end up helping her choose a more suitable mount

 

[Leandy]

If this is so bad that it is a welfare issue then personally I would say something. The horse's welfare is more important than either the rider's sensitivities or the risk that she may seek to harm my reputation. The horse does not have a voice and needs others to speak up for it. I would of course try to be tactful and polite but I would also be clear. The horse and rider are not well suited is a tactful way to put it and when asked why, I don't see a problem with saying the horse and saddle are too small for the rider. You need to be clear and direct to be fair to both horse and rider. Don't be evasive, that is not helpful and is not giving a professional opinion. You are being paid for a professional opinion on the partnership in front of you.

 

[Shilasdair]

I'm a firm believer that just because a horse "can" cope with carrying a heavier rider, doesn't mean that they should.
I say this as someone who has battled with my own weight issues. I'm 5ft1 and lost over 2 stone previously, and I'm now down to 9.5st. Although my weight occasionally fluctuates by a few lbs, I work very hard to make sure I remain under 10st.
My smallest horse, a 13.2 Welsh pony could comfortably carry more than I weigh. He is a chunky type and is hunting fit, but just because he can doesn't mean he should.
Riding is a privilege and while I don't agree with fat shaming, horses welfare comes above everything else, including our personal feelings. I think we owe it to our horses to make every effort to keep our weight in check.

I hope you don't mind - but your post is a perfect example of the problem - where every rider thinks 'I'm fine - but any heavier than me is TOO heavy'.

There is no weight that is beneficial for your horse to carry - so if we are going to have a meaningful discussion about rider weight and horse welfare, then we need to come up with more scientific measures than 'I'm fine but taller/heavier people are not'.

Personally, I think a ratio of total weight of rider/tack against equine body weight is a good starting point.
There are also other factors at work though, I've seen a lot of fairly light riders whose novice skills mean they land very heavily on the horse, usually behind the movement. And I've seen heavier more skilled riders who were much more in balance.

It's not simple.

 

[Peglo]

I hope you don't mind - but your post is a perfect example of the problem - where every rider thinks 'I'm fine - but any heavier than me is TOO heavy'.

There is no weight that is beneficial for your horse to carry - so if we are going to have a meaningful discussion about rider weight and horse welfare, then we need to come up with more scientific measures than 'I'm fine but taller/heavier people are not'.

Personally, I think a ratio of total weight of rider/tack against equine body weight is a good starting point.
There are also other factors at work though, I've seen a lot of fairly light riders whose novice skills mean they land very heavily on the horse, usually behind the movement. And I've seen heavier more skilled riders who were much more in balance.

It's not simple.

I must admit I agree fully with GA. But when I think of my horse and horses health I do get to decide what’s too heavy for her. I choose to keep fit and lean so when I ride her I’m more comfortable for her. I have a weight limit in mind I wouldn’t be happy to be on her and as she’s mine I get to make that choice. It’s not fat shaming or judging anyone but putting my pony first which I think I have a duty to do. What I gather from GA’s post is they were also speaking of their own ponies and not standard riders.

 

[Birker2020]

I also don't buy that anyone is so self confident if they are riding and overweight that they don't ever self criticise, we all do, even if its tucked away in private.

I didn't say that either of my two examples rode as neither do.

I sleep poor as well which is another factor for weight gain, I'm lucky to get five hours a night, more often 4.5 hours. Its a bit of a vicious circle as my prescription meds cause weight gain, two out of the three I take do.

On the plus side I'm going to the gym four times a week, twice a week do spin and four times a week swim.
Also because my work is desk bound so I don't move around much although I think I will be going on a 20 min walk on my break everyday at work when the weather is better.

I am trying and I rarely eat fattening food, for example I'll eat a skinny whip instead of a chocolate bar, or eat a couple of spoons of low fat yoghurt rather than a magnum. I've cut right back on cheese now as I used to love toasted cheese sandwiches.

Yesterday I didn't have apple pie and custard for pudding when we had roast dinner. I had a small low fat tiramisu and didn't have seconds of the roast lamb (my favourite). Had a light tea of egg on toast. Swapped skimmed for semi skimmed milk, swapped options hot chocolate at bed time for the creamier full fat version.

Its all about making small changes. Its portion size I need to work on now.

 

[Shilasdair]

I must admit I agree fully with GA. But when I think of my horse and horses health I do get to decide what’s too heavy for her. I choose to keep fit and lean so when I ride her I’m more comfortable for her. I have a weight limit in mind I wouldn’t be happy to be on her and as she’s mine I get to make that choice. It’s not fat shaming or judging anyone but putting my pony first which I think I have a duty to do. What I gather from GA’s post is they were also speaking of their own ponies and not standard riders.

Do you though? And should you?
Because the rider that AWinter is referring to in her OP apparently doesn't get to decide what's too heavy for her horse.

So if I'm 30 stones and decide to ride my Shetland, that's fine - because I get to decide*? And I can let other 30 stone riders take her eventing?

We need more robust objective and scientific evidence on the impact of rider weight on equine welfare - or in the future, this may be decided for us.


* I have yet to achieve 30 stones (although it is creme egg season) and I own no Shetland.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I hope you don't mind - but your post is a perfect example of the problem - where every rider thinks 'I'm fine - but any heavier than me is TOO heavy'.

There is no weight that is beneficial for your horse to carry - so if we are going to have a meaningful discussion about rider weight and horse welfare, then we need to come up with more scientific measures than 'I'm fine but taller/heavier people are not'.

Personally, I think a ratio of total weight of rider/tack against equine body weight is a good starting point.
There are also other factors at work thoug, I've seen a lot of fairly light riders whose novice skills mean they land very heavily on the horse, usually behind the movement. And I've seen heavier more skilled riders who were much more in balance.

It's not simple.

Don't get me wrong I know its not that simple but I think we do need to be realistic about what our horses can safely carry and there has to be a limit somewhere? Although I think to an extent we all have to make our own judgements where that limit is set, but also be prepared to listen to professional opinions and trust that advice also.
I know it isn't exactly proven but I personally use the 20% rule as a guide to the maximum weight a horse could potentially carry. Not saying its right but its where I personally start.
Then there's the horse's build and fitness to take into account also, and a hefty dose of common sense.
I don't so much look at it as "my weight is ok but that weight isn't". Rather I look at my horses, their type, build and fitness level, using the 20% as a guide and then assess what I would feel comfortable with them carrying. My pony would carry me at a stone heavier but I would prefer he didn't have to.

 

[I'm Dun]

And yet here we have someone who has no idea what either horse or rider weighs who has decided the rider is too heavy in her opinion. But we have no decently researched guidelines to use. So who says shes right? She might be, but she might be wrong. There is no professional training in assessing weight to horse ratio.The research also shows that people get it really wrong when they guess other people's weight, so even if shes right in theory, she could be wrong if shes basing it on guessing.

If you look at the states they use 30% in a lot of cases and their horses arent dropping dead from the strain. Is that too much? Who knows because the limited amount of research done wasnt good enough

 

[Peglo]

Do you though? And should you?
Because the rider that AWinter is referring to in her OP apparently doesn't get to decide what's too heavy for her horse.

So if I'm 30 stones and decide to ride my Shetland, that's fine - because I get to decide*? And I can let other 30 stone riders take her eventing?

We need more robust objective and scientific evidence on the impact of rider weight on equine welfare - or in the future, this may be decided for us.


* I have yet to achieve 30 stones (although it is creme egg season) and I own no Shetland.

Fair point and I agree that scientific evidence would be great if it would help horse welfare but as I’m not carrying extra weight (9 1/2 stone) I stand by my post. If I put on weight (or maybe at this weight) I’m more than happy for someone to tell me I’m too heavy for my horses.

also going to need to watch out for those pesky Easter eggs!

 

[Birker2020]

Edited to say I've taken the photos off now.

I know I was overweight when these images were taken. I had stopped riding my precious horse 6 months previously as she kept coming up lame but she was a big horse and easily took my weight at just under 17.1hh.

Had I been schooling or jumping her then, I accept that would have been wrong, but all we were doing at that stage before she kept going lame was pottering around the lanes once or twice a week for 20 mins. I'd stopped schooling her probably two or three years previously. Her lameness and my weight were not associated with each other, she was lame due to coffin joint arthritis.

I've since lost at least a stone and a half and look quite different on my legs and waist line but still have a way to go and my new boy is a much lighter frame and only 16.2hh. I should be around 12 1/2 stone for my height but I'm currently a lot more than that. Work in progress.

I accept that I have an issue but I know that I need to do something about it and I am trying to.

 

[criso]

If we use the 20% rule then my old tb, not overweight but not racing condition either, in theory could take 18 stone 12 pounds. Same with a friend's chunky 15 hand cob. ROR use 17% which would still be just over 16 stone.

I know that's a maximum, needs to include tack and assumes horse is in optimal health but I wonder how many of the people considered to be too heavy actually weigh that much.

 

[ycbm]

If we use the 20% rule then my old tb, not overweight but not racing condition either, in theory could take 18 stone 12 pounds. Same with a friend's chunky 15 hand cob. ROR use 17% which would still be just over 16 stone.

I know that's a maximum, needs to include tack and assumes horse is in optimal health but I wonder how many of the people considered to be too heavy actually weigh that much.

I use 15% and that's only for a mature fit horse with a good standard of rider. Younger horse, worse rider, much older horse, very unfit horse, .... all reduce it.
.

 

[Gallop_Away]

If we use the 20% rule then my old tb, not overweight but not racing condition either, in theory could take 18 stone 12 pounds. Same with a friend's chunky 15 hand cob. ROR use 17% which would still be just over 16 stone.

I know that's a maximum, needs to include tack and assumes horse is in optimal health but I wonder how many of the people considered to be too heavy actually weigh that much.

That's why I think you also need a hefty dose common sense. I think the 20% rule is a useful guide, but that's it. Going on that the average shire should carry 28st!!!!

 

[Tiddlypom]

I hope you don't mind - but your post is a perfect example of the problem - where every rider thinks 'I'm fine - but any heavier than me is TOO heavy'.

I don't think that this true.

Many riders will do their best to keep their weight below an acceptable upper limit for their horse.

I work to the 15% rule, but that includes all tack, rider clothing and equipment. I'm a little over the mid point of a healthy weight for my height, but due to my sturdy build this means my ribs and vertebrae are now very prominent. My osteo was rather concerned that I'd overdone the weight loss.

It puts me at about 13.5% for my mare (16.1hh ID x cob) inc tack etc, and is as low a weight as I can reasonably do.

A 7 stone rider would be even better for her, of course, but that rider couldn't be me!

I agree that educated balanced riders are less of a burden to a horse than unbalanced riders of the same weight.

 

[sbloom]

But, I guess my wonder (and what the op would need to consider) is if you are sensitive and initially offended .....what happens next?

You go home feeling terrible and reach for the chocolate biscuits, then wake up in the morning feeling terrible for having eaten them....

I hope you don't mind - but your post is a perfect example of the problem - where every rider thinks 'I'm fine - but any heavier than me is TOO heavy'.

There is no weight that is beneficial for your horse to carry - so if we are going to have a meaningful discussion about rider weight and horse welfare, then we need to come up with more scientific measures than 'I'm fine but taller/heavier people are not'.

Personally, I think a ratio of total weight of rider/tack against equine body weight is a good starting point.
There are also other factors at work though, I've seen a lot of fairly light riders whose novice skills mean they land very heavily on the horse, usually behind the movement. And I've seen heavier more skilled riders who were much more in balance.

It's not simple.

Saddle fitting is nothing more than mitigating the damage we do by riding them. Clearly we CAN "improve" them with the work we do with them, but only on our terms. They don't need improving.

And yet here we have someone who has no idea what either horse or rider weighs who has decided the rider is too heavy in her opinion. But we have no decently researched guidelines to use. So who says shes right? She might be, but she might be wrong. There is no professional training in assessing weight to horse ratio.The research also shows that people get it really wrong when they guess other people's weight, so even if shes right in theory, she could be wrong if shes basing it on guessing.

If you look at the states they use 30% in a lot of cases and their horses arent dropping dead from the strain. Is that too much? Who knows because the limited amount of research done wasnt good enough

Watching a combo arguably tells you more than ratios - ratios will always be an oversimplifcation, watching how a horse may make compensatory changes in its way of going is likely to be far more informative, as it working with a heavy rider over the months and years and seeing how it can often be impossible to accommodate them correctly with the saddle fit. I have definitely had riders who were on the cusp of being too heavy and I never could get rid of dents in the horse's back under the rear panels.

 

[Michen]

Don't get me wrong I know its not that simple but I think we do need to be realistic about what our horses can safely carry and there has to be a limit somewhere? Although I think to an extent we all have to make our own judgements where that limit is set, but also be prepared to listen to professional opinions and trust that advice also.
I know it isn't exactly proven but I personally use the 20% rule as a guide to the maximum weight a horse could potentially carry. Not saying its right but its where I personally start.
Then there's the horse's build and fitness to take into account also, and a hefty dose of common sense.
I don't so much look at it as "my weight is ok but that weight isn't". Rather I look at my horses, their type, build and fitness level, using the 20% as a guide and then assess what I would feel comfortable with them carrying. My pony would carry me at a stone heavier but I would prefer he didn't have to.

Completely agree. I said no recently to someone a stone and a half heavier (tan me not 20%) riding my horse. Yes he could carry them fine but he's also got hock arthiritis and had a soft tissue injury so why would I put the extra weight on him just so someone else can have a jolly?

Your horse, your rules, your vet bills.

 

[criso]

I use 15% and that's only for a mature fit horse with a good standard of rider. Younger horse, worse rider, much older horse, very unfit horse, .... all reduce it.
.

Which is why I mentioned this as a max, horse is perfect health etc.

But as 20% was mentioned a few times, I wanted to put some real figures against it. The fact we weigh horses in Kg and people in stone, doesn't help.

 

[Gloi]

When people do endurance riding the timed rate of return to the horse's base heartbeat and breathing rate shows how well the horse has coped with the ride.
Anyone can do this at home to see how well their horse is coping with carrying them if they are concerned.

 

[Red-1]

I guess, as OP's issue is stated, it is about whether OP is confident and happy teaching that particular combination. OP doesn't have to get into percentages, it is about what they feel is right to teach.

I know when I got my previous sporty horse, I was too heavy. I was 14 stone. I said I wouldn't ride for long or jump until I was down to 12.5 stone, it took just over a year, but I had incentive and made it.

When I got Rigs, I wouldn't ride him until I was down to 11 stone. I did that, rode and still felt too big. I got down to 9 1/2 stone within a year of owning him, and that is OK (although I still feel too tall).

Of course, I may not have done it, in which case I would have had a choice to make. Keep the horse but not ride, or only do X amount. Or, sell the horse. So, I disagree that the right weight is always the one a bit bigger than the rider, as I limited what I did with my horses until I was the weight I had set. I recognised that I was currently too big.

OP just needs to decide if they are happy or not to teach that combination of horse/rider, as they are, than communicate this as very much that they are not happy that the horse is big enough, rather than saying it as a fact.

PS- I am a little worried as I now have a bigger horse and the incentive to stay at 9 1/2 stone for the horse has gone!

 

[PapaverFollis]

I got my weight steady at 10stone while we had the little ex-racer. I still felt too big and planned to lose another half if we decided he was stopping. It didn't work out, which I found upsetting... then we went and got The Beast and comfort ate a stone on without even blinking. It crept up some more, then Granny horse died and I comfort ate another stone on in a month. 13 stone. Plus. I'd lost a bit before getting MrT and he could carry me fine. But I wanted more than "carry me fine". I wanted "minimal weight on horses back that I can healthily expect of myself". Why would you NOT want that? I was I complete denial about how heavy I had become and the fact of The Beast's size just meant I could ignore it. MrT is smaller and narrower and it was more obvious.

Anyone who wants to lose weight should check out the Micheal Mosley books. I've done a short, sharp option and lost 2 stone in 6 weeks (and 5 inches each off bust, waist and hips since I was that 13 stone). I'm now 10stone8lbs and I can feel that the horse is more comfortable. Why would anyone avoid that?

We have to be honest with ourselves.

I have all the reasons a person puts on weight. My entire family are fat. My mum did a twin study and her blood sugar metabolism is the literal worst score they score. I have those genes. I have had some disordered eating and emotionally eat massively. I can literally binge two days calories in a sitting... at some point in my life I expect I'll fall into that again. BUT the Dr Mosely books are transforming my relationship with food at we speak. I have completely resisted a couple of episodes of wanting to emotionally eat over just the last couple of weeks. It's hard! But you know what, facing those emotions head on is going to be so much better in the long run. And I've significantly improved my own chances of good health AND my horse's chances of long term soundness!

All because my horse physio hinted enough that I might not want to be any fatter and brought me out of the denial...

Sometimes stuff is just bliddy hard. It doesn't mean we should avoid it or tiptoe around it.

 

[Snow Falcon]

I had my mare to back but I knew I was too heavy to do it. I lost 2.75 stone for her. I am guilty of over eating and have a sweet tooth. I need to shift a little weigt now to be honest. Now the nights are drawing out I'll start walking again.

 

[[153312]]

Out of morbid curiosity, for those of you who have had equine professionals tell you you're too heavy for your horse, how how they phrased it?/what did they actually say?

 

[Leam_Carrie]

Hope it goes ok OP. Must be a difficult situation.