Rising 3 year ridden at BEF show.

[Irish gal]

There's tons of research on this - it's multi-generational and it's inside the heads of producers sending horses to the Olympics and producing tomorrow's world champions and stars of track. In other words the proof of the pudding is in the eating!

They don't need long winded university studies to tell them what their fathers and grandfathers have already told them and what they know through experience. This is not something that can be compressed into some dry article in the Journal of Veterinary Medicine, to be then poured over, snapped up and applied by anyone.

Many stallions begin their training at two, the biggest reason for this is because of the horse's mental development. I wouldn't be qualified to work with a horse like that but here's how it was explained to me by a man who has sent horses to the jumping world championships.

He has a future top contender and is working so hard to give the horse every chance at success. This process is more psychological than anything else. The horse was broken at two, because his mind at that age was most malleable so he was most open to learning and especially learning his place in the world. Stallions have a mind of their own, as we know, so it's very important that they learn obedience and their place in the scheme of things.

He's a big beautiful horse about 16.3hh and is ridden for very short times, maybe twice a week, by professional riders who are very light. He has been taken to a show, not to compete but just to walk around and get used to the experience. He's also left off for stretches.

According to his owner none of this is in the least stressful for the horse because it all comes so naturally to him. As a two year-old he was assessed loose jumping to see what his abilities were. The test is for the horse, with no encouragement from the owner, to loose jump a 1.30m spread. To be earmarked as a future top level horse he must do this of his own accord from a trot and display no difficulty of any type what so ever. If there is the least bit of stress for the horse in doing this he will be classed as a future amateur ride. The horses are then turned away until they're four - apart from stallions.

The key here is that all the work the youngster is asked to do is enjoyable for him and non stressful: according to the owner he just works with the horse's own innate abilities so the experience is never difficult but instead it's enjoyable. The tenet he works from is that as long as the work comes naturally and the horse enjoys it then he is not being stressed. That is the whole object of the training: the minute the horse shows any stress, training is not working and must cease for a rethink.

To give you an idea of the innate jumping ability of the horse he was recently turned out in the arena to stretch his legs. A while later one the riders passing nearby noticed that he was jumping a 1.30m fence that happened to be erected and he kept on doing it. As she said he "was schooling himself".

This is not about rushing horses it's about working with each individual. The same man has a very talented six year-old, she can jump the moon but tenses in her head and won't perform at shows. So the minute the mare shows discomfort she's left off for a break. He keeps working with her to see can he encourage her to relax but he admits she may never. He wouldn't dream of forcing her as he knows that would never work and it would be against all his beliefs to do it.

Interestingly this is the same training method used by the best and most progressive race horse trainers. Watch how Aidan O'Brien expounds on the exact same tenet of simply working with the horses innate abilities. "Their minds are the most important thing, making sure they come out of races as if they hadn't had them". So in other words when the horse is doing what comes naturally to him - there is no stress because he's enjoying it.

Aidan O'Brien didn't just dream that up or read it from some research, it comes from the multi generational knowledge acquired by people working all their lives with horses. For instance his father-in-law has worked closely with him. Here's how he's been described: "He's a quiet, little man, a fountain of sense. He can make animals do anything. He had a dog that he would tell to bring in the two-year-olds and the dog would go off and separate them from the rest."

So just imagine the horse knowledge that the next generation of O'Briens have who are all working or planning to work in the industry...

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-leading-the-way-to-the-festival-1473380.html

 

[hollyandivy123]

There's tons of research on this - it's multi-generational and it's inside the heads of producers sending horses to the Olympics and producing tomorrow's world champions and stars of track. In other words the proof of the pudding is in the eating!

They don't need long winded university studies to tell them what their fathers and grandfathers have already told them and what they know through experience. This is not something that can be compressed into some dry article in the Journal of Veterinary Medicine, to be then poured over, snapped up and applied by anyone.


why are so against knowledge and looking at a problem or event from more than one perspective?

Aidan O'Brien didn't just dream that up or read it from some research, it comes from the multi generational knowledge acquired by people working all their lives with horses. For instance his father-in-law has worked closely with him. Here's how he's been described: "He's a quiet, little man, a fountain of sense. He can make animals do anything. He had a dog that he would tell to bring in the two-year-olds and the dog would go off and separate them from the rest."


so he learnt from people with previous knowledge and applied this information to the task.......horse in front of him, this is no different approach from what is applied in scientific research, we see a problem or an event and try and work out why this happens. we need to develop new approaches to antibiotic resistance, we will use the information that has been gathered from our scientific fore fathers/mothers and use this to improve the task in front of us.

Both approaches use the same approach in looking at the previous generation what they did and how that worked. Why are you scared of this method you praise it when it is used in natural horseman perspective but condemn it if it scientifically assessed?

Take cushings without looking into the biochemistry of the blood we would not have an idea of what the changes are, how they occur and how they could potentially be treated, should no dry research be used to treat this disease? looking at the horse/pony you could say in late stage that the equine has the disease, but we now recognise earlier signs for treatment due to understanding it better

So just imagine the horse knowledge that the next generation of O'Briens have who are all working or planning to work in the industry...

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-leading-the-way-to-the-festival-1473380.html

I use to work in Newmarket so appreciate the backup of research in the progression of racing, this goes in hand with the knowledge of the horse by the trainer.

 

[ycbm]

All the old horse men 'knew' that it causes colic to douse a hot horse all over in cold water.

Until some proper research was done when the Olympics were going to run in hot temperatures. And from then on, the recommendation is that all the major muscle groups should be drowned in ICED water, not just cold.

If anything, the trend is to break horses later now than they did 'in the old days'. So the handed down knowledge appears to be being watered down somewhere.

I don't get the argument that experienced people with handed down knowledge don't need research.

.As H&I says, what's to be scared of?



P S I've done more of a search and I can find loads of information about exercise being beneficial to bone strength and cartilage thickness in horses from foal to older horses. But none on length of ridden career based on when the horse first carried a rider.

 

[elliefiz]

Having watched the video of Double Bubble - what a fabulous name ! I would not care how old he is, ridden or not and regardless of his breeding or value, he moves so appallingly I would not consider him as a top class horse in any sphere. The creature would trip you up leading him to the school.

How interesting that you would say this yet Lynne Crowden thinks he is the most exciting horse she has ever bred..... I do wonder who will be left eating their words.

 

[Goldenstar]

All the old horse men 'knew' that it causes colic to douse a hot horse all over in cold water.

Until some proper research was done when the Olympics were going to run in hot temperatures. And from then on, the recommendation is that all the major muscle groups should be drowned in ICED water, not just cold.

If anything, the trend is to break horses later now than they did 'in the old days'. So the handed down knowledge appears to be being watered down somewhere.

I don't get the argument that experienced people with handed down knowledge don't need research.

.As H&I says, what's to be scared of?



P S I've done more of a search and I can find loads of information about exercise being beneficial to bone strength and cartilage thickness in horses from foal to older horses. But none on length of ridden career based on when the horse first carried a rider.

I think you will find there isn't any.
it would be so hard to do because of the difficulty of controlling all the variables .

 

[milliepops]

returning to the videos, not sure whether anyone has seen Lynne Crowden's longer response on the BD forum, was also on FB I think.
The rising 3yos were first sat on beginning of December and she gave a "generous" estimate of max 10 hours under saddle to date, simply to learn to go forward and understand the rider's aids.

It was a calm, balanced and IMO reasoned response and she also remarked that the majority of their horses are started when they are 3.

if you're a BD member it's here http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/forum/category/members_forum/860662?page=6

 

[Irish gal]

I use to work in Newmarket so appreciate the backup of research in the progression of racing, this goes in hand with the knowledge of the horse by the trainer.

A scientific paper has never won a race - and it never will

But the vocational experience of trainers is what wins races every day. The latest scientific research is great as an ancillary resource but it can never take the place of a trainers experience, on which his horsemanship and approach is based.

It's the trainer's knowledge, learned in a vocational manner, combined with his or her innate ability with horses that results in training success. This is not the same as academic knowledge and it simply cannot be learned in the same way. You could let somebody study racing for 100 years from studies and books and you'll find that they still can't win races.

 

[Irish gal]

Why so scared of knowledge - isn't that a real good question!?

I find it interesting that not one poster has commented on the substantive information in my post: the actual training methods used to educate a young stallion by a producer who has sent horses to the world championships.

I can only assume that posters here have horses that have gone on to compete at this level or higher, say the Olympics, making this information superfluous. Are we to assume so that you have international horses standing in your stables...

 

[Beausmate]

"Good" movement for dressage horses is not the same as movement for show horses. In the show ring it's all about how straight a horse moves, for dressage the main thing is the expression and flexion, and more about the hind end than the front.

So what's going on with modern dressage judging? There are so many horses that are all front end flash in the test with the hindlegs still in the warmup, gaining high marks. And a lot of them couldn't show a correct piaffe if their lives depended on it.

Are modern dressage horses being bred to be too uphill?

 

[Goldenstar]

So what's going on with modern dressage judging? There are so many horses that are all front end flash in the test with the hindlegs still in the warmup, gaining high marks. And a lot of them couldn't show a correct piaffe if their lives depended on it.

Are modern dressage horses being bred to be too uphill?

I have to confess the first time I saw a field of super swanky dressage yearlings my gut thought was they looked deformed .
I was used to Irish bred part breeds and TBs youngsters I really was not prepared by how up hill they were bred to be .

 

[Cortez]

So what's going on with modern dressage judging? There are so many horses that are all front end flash in the test with the hindlegs still in the warmup, gaining high marks. And a lot of them couldn't show a correct piaffe if their lives depended on it.

Are modern dressage horses being bred to be too uphill?

No, not too uphill, it's the training methods used I think, and the judges rewarding flashy movement over real collection. Horses bred 20 - 40 years ago were better trained, but couldn't compete with todays movers. Fault is in the judging, yes, but also with the modern desire for flash and the spectacular. If Totilas hadn't been around I think Fuego would have been/should be the superstar.

Modern dressage breeding has created a superb, but also freaky, purpose-built horse.

 

[ycbm]

A scientific paper has never won a race - and it never will

But the vocational experience of trainers is what wins races every day. The latest scientific research is great as an ancillary resource but it can never take the place of a trainers experience, on which his horsemanship and approach is based.

It's the trainer's knowledge, learned in a vocational manner, combined with his or her innate ability with horses that results in training success. This is not the same as academic knowledge and it simply cannot be learned in the same way. You could let somebody study racing for 100 years from studies and books and you'll find that they still can't win races.

Have you heard of a trainer called Martin Pipe, IG? A number of years ago he threw away the book of received wisdom about racehorse training, went for the science of training, and won everything in sight.

The racing industry is the one which does have a TON of research on training.

If we had the same for the other disciplines and for career longevity, it would be very interesting.

 

[hollyandivy123]

Why so scared of knowledge - isn't that a real good question!?

I find it interesting that not one poster has commented on the substantive information in my post: the actual training methods used to educate a young stallion by a producer who has sent horses to the world championships.

I can only assume that posters here have horses that have gone on to compete at this level or higher, say the Olympics, making this information superfluous. Are we to assume so that you have international horses standing in your stables...

what i was trying to demonstrate that there are two ways of looking at an issue, that both require the access to a large amount of pre knowledge and to apply this to improve performance/research/disease etc. you seem to have trouble with the concept that there is "vocational and academic" experience in both the trainer and a scientist working in the research which enables the progression of things. A trainer can look at a horse with the knowledge they have gained from the past this is no different to research, just different ways of describing the same process, we utilise past knowledge from people.

To slightly dispute your statement that know one can learn to win a race, then why have the form book? but to be fair we had better odds predicting the winner if we went with the groom my friend fancied walking the horses in the paddock rather than the book

there really was no need to snipe at the posters on this thread, it is good to develop a conversation in a thread in which any one can participate, query, either agree or disagree are you saying that only Olympic riders may have a point of view? you can only learn by seeing things from more than one perspective

 

[tristar]

i think fuego is and always will be the superstar! the point of reference of what dressage could be, of course he is a real dressage horse that`s why he is the best.

on irish gal`s discription of the young stallion`s initiation, why is he jumping 1m 30 at 2 years old? and at a trot!, two things i would not do personally, what exactly does that prove? apart from the fact he evidently did not break his neck.

 

[AdorableAlice]

How interesting that you would say this yet Lynne Crowden thinks he is the most exciting horse she has ever bred..... I do wonder who will be left eating their words.

I sincerely hope Double Bubble is a world beating dressage horse, and achieves a big profit for his British breeder Lynne Crowden, we need to support British Breeders. I hope he becomes a British rather than overseas's team horse. It is not a case of eating ones words. Successful or not the horse moves badly which is a pity.

 

[Cortez]

I sincerely hope Double Bubble is a world beating dressage horse, and achieves a big profit for his British breeder Lynne Crowden, we need to support British Breeders. I hope he becomes a British rather than overseas's team horse. It is not a case of eating ones words. Successful or not the horse moves badly which is a pity.

Sorry, must dispute with you here: the horse does not move badly, he is a superb mover FOR DRESSAGE.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Sorry, must dispute with you here: the horse does not move badly, he is a superb mover FOR DRESSAGE.

We must agree to disagree then. Any horse of any breed doing any job will be better able to perform its job if it is correctly conformed and able to move straight, which in turn allows the skeletal structure of the horse to work at maximum effort with minimum stress to joints. Plus if you run on a shoe string like I do, a set of shoes wear out in a uniform way because the horse moves correctly - every little helps !!

 

[Cortez]

Moving straight is always desireable, essential if the horse has to perform at speed (i.e racehorses, hunters, eventers), but it is more important for the horse to move in the vertical plane for any activity that requires high collection, here flexion and engagement is paramount. If I wanted to hunt or race I would not buy this horse!!

 

[Irish gal]

Have you heard of a trainer called Martin Pipe, IG? A number of years ago he threw away the book of received wisdom about racehorse training, went for the science of training, and won everything in sight.

The racing industry is the one which does have a TON of research on training.

If we had the same for the other disciplines and for career longevity, it would be very interesting.

We've all well aware who he is and what he did Ycbm and what he did is what I have been talking about: he used scientific research as an ancillary, he combined it with his knowledge as a horseman and developed a winning formula.

There's isn't a snowballs chance in hell that he could have done the same thing, without his already incredible knowledge of horses gleaned over years. In much the same way that no matter how many hand outs are given to kids studying equine science, that alone will not result in them training a winner. Just like we can all read the Racing Post and every scientific study that comes out and still not be able to train one.

What sets Aidan O'Brien apart as a trainer? He's well versed in all the latest scientific knowledge but that's not what's giving him the advantage - as let's face it so is everybody else. It's his accepted ability to get inside a horse's head and bring out that horse's natural talent in the most stress free way possible. That's what put him out in front, and that has nothing to do with science - it's all psychology and if you were to analyse it, you would have to say it's a gift coupled with all he has learned from incredible horse men that he has worked with and continues to work with. Of course he studies the form and everything else - that goes without saying

That's why if you listen carefully to O'Brien you will see that what he speaks about is the horse's temperament. For instance he loves and has had great success with horses by Galileo. And what has he got to say about them: "Galilelo puts mental toughness into them - they want to win." So what he has identified as the stand out traits of Galileos are psychological traits. He then works with those traits and allows them to come out on the home straits of the world's premier tracks. That's pure horsemanship.

 

[Goldenstar]

Moving straight is always desireable, essential if the horse has to perform at speed (i.e racehorses, hunters, eventers), but it is more important for the horse to move in the vertical plane for any activity that requires high collection, here flexion and engagement is paramount. If I wanted to hunt or race I would not buy this horse!!

Exactly this , with the proviso I have not seen the horse in question .

 

[MargotC]

I can barely watch videos on Facebook for experiencing lag but the chestnut looked not quite right behind to me. Does this show when the video is viewed without lag?

From what I could see they are extremely green but sympathetically ridden at least. I expect the time under saddle estimate given by the breeder is accurate. That said, the ridden practice and race to grade does not sit right with me personally.

 

[tristar]

well i don`t know which one i looked at, it was rising three, it looked like a wobbly gelderlander or some driving horse i saw once.

i think we are allowed to say what we see, its legs went all over the shop, it looks very fragile to me, a fragile and vulnerable baby

i don`t think we need to sacrifice our integrity at the alter of the industrial production of `dressage horses` this is not setting a good example and so what if it wins and wins, we will remember all the ones that are destroyed by this system and what it costs to get there.

 

[JJS]

I can only assume that posters here have horses that have gone on to compete at this level or higher, say the Olympics, making this information superfluous. Are we to assume so that you have international horses standing in your stables...

Surely the more important question is whether they have sound horses standing in their stables. I'm not for one moment suggesting that the producer in question doesn't, only that this seems to be the truly divisive factor in the debate concerning whether it's fair to break horses at rising three: their long-term health and soundness. After all, success and compassion don't always go hand in hand, do they?

 

[Irish gal]

what i was trying to demonstrate that there are two ways of looking at an issue, that both require the access to a large amount of pre knowledge and to apply this to improve performance/research/disease etc. you seem to have trouble with the concept that there is "vocational and academic" experience in both the trainer and a scientist working in the research which enables the progression of things. A trainer can look at a horse with the knowledge they have gained from the past this is no different to research, just different ways of describing the same process, we utilise past knowledge from people.

To slightly dispute your statement that know one can learn to win a race, then why have the form book? but to be fair we had better odds predicting the winner if we went with the groom my friend fancied walking the horses in the paddock rather than the book

there really was no need to snipe at the posters on this thread, it is good to develop a conversation in a thread in which any one can participate, query, either agree or disagree are you saying that only Olympic riders may have a point of view? you can only learn by seeing things from more than one perspective

I have no trouble with the concept of vocational and academic training. I have an MA and understand very well what academic study entails. My point is that primacy in terms of winning races must be given to the trainer's vocational knowledge and that academic research is just an ancillary (I have already said this several times, so strange to be repeating it again).

The form book is all good and well and it will certainly help you to buy a horse that could be a winner but it won't help you train him. That's horsemanship pure and simple. As previously stated of course it's informed by findings from science but these are not the main element, merely a resource or tool to call upon.

Let's take a look for a moment at one of the greatest racehorses the world has ever known - Seabiscuit. A complete waste of space as a competitor until he met a trainer who could get inside his head. The trainer drawing upon his knowledge as a horseman understood that Seabiscuit was temperamental and would need a very special jockey. He was willing to overlook the horse's poor form after seeing in his eye a look of supreme confidence, more than he had ever seen in any horse. His job was to unlock that, which he did. That can't be taught in university. He found an equally unsuccessful jockey but one that the horse liked and the rest is history.

Everyone has a point of view and we are all on a learning continuum but to bring up a point you raised about academic experience being essentially just like horsemen learning from one another. To use your example, would you in an academic sense give more weight to the opinion of an inexperienced person in a subject or to the one with a PHD in that topic?

That's how I look at horses. And yes Nick Skelton's opinion of a horse or a training method carries more weight than a leisure riders. That is no doubt why you would have people queuing out the door for a Nick Skelton clinic, whereas a leisure rider's just wouldn't have the same appeal. This is not just my opinion, but the general consensus.

So let's say we were for the craic awarding honorary PHDs tonight - would you say that Nick Skelton deserves one in horsemanship. I would and this is my point. The knowledge and ability he has just can't be taught willy nilly. That's why I'm all ears when he and others like him - proven horsemen and women - have training tips to impart.

One day no doubt the scientific literature will catch up with him but in the meantime I am more than happy to learn from him and people like him. It's not about sniping at people on here, it's about valuing the incredible knowledge these people have which the average leisure rider simply doesn't possess. That's not a value judgement on them, they simply, through no fault of their own, do not have the same level of expertise.

 

[Irish gal]

i think fuego is and always will be the superstar! the point of reference of what dressage could be, of course he is a real dressage horse that`s why he is the best.

on irish gal`s discription of the young stallion`s initiation, why is he jumping 1m 30 at 2 years old? and at a trot!, two things i would not do personally, what exactly does that prove? apart from the fact he evidently did not break his neck.

You have slightly missed the point tristar. This is all about the horse being given the opportunity in a zero stress environment to show what his own preferences and likes are.

To produce a 1.60m international horse the animal himself must enjoy it and want to do it - otherwise it won't happen. This is not about forcing it's all about ability.

To determine if that's the case he is put in arena with a 1.30m jump to see if he himself chooses to jump it from a trot. If he does it means he has the ability to go to to the top. Many other factors are involved like temperament etc but the main thing is that the horse himself wants to do it. I said previously that the horse I was referring to can be found in the arena - alone - jumping a big fence that happened to be up. Nobody asked him to do it - he simply loves jumping.

In the same way I have seen NH pinhookers bring youngsters into an arena with racing fences. They trot around and the ones who choose to jump are those that are singled out as future winners.

This is not about money, it's not about forcing anything, it's about finding out the horse's own talents. If he doesn't want to do it he'll never be worth more than the price of a nice amateur mount and that's okay, that's who he is. you can't make someone into something they are not.

I'm no expert on dressage but in the same way, as that seems to be your background, you might put a youngster in an arena and just watch how he moves. He's not going to need an audience or any incentive to see how he moves - he'll just do it and then you will know what you have on your hands. You will know the natural physical ability he has, obviously how trainable he is and wanting to learn will then be big factors along with that.

 

[ester]

The overall impression I get as a bendy person is of someone that is hypermobile who hasn't yet developed the muscle to hold any of that hypermobility together.

 

[popsdosh]

Have you heard of a trainer called Martin Pipe, IG? A number of years ago he threw away the book of received wisdom about racehorse training, went for the science of training, and won everything in sight.

The racing industry is the one which does have a TON of research on training.

If we had the same for the other disciplines and for career longevity, it would be very interesting.

OMG you are opening up a totally different can of worms there . Yes the science of numbers do you actually know what science he went for at the time. As some of the facts would make this thread look very tame. I cant say more but please it was no holiday camp like Butlins just up the road from him. Yes he got results but at what cost.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Can a horse grow out of dishing as it strengthens? Double Bubble throws his legs out like a mad thing, it would be very distracting from the overall impression no matter how elevated and wonderful he may be in other respects.

 

[HashRouge]

You have slightly missed the point tristar. This is all about the horse being given the opportunity in a zero stress environment to show what his own preferences and likes are.

To produce a 1.60m international horse the animal himself must enjoy it and want to do it - otherwise it won't happen. This is not about forcing it's all about ability.

To determine if that's the case he is put in arena with a 1.30m jump to see if he himself chooses to jump it from a trot. If he does it means he has the ability to go to to the top. Many other factors are involved like temperament etc but the main thing is that the horse himself wants to do it. I said previously that the horse I was referring to can be found in the arena - alone - jumping a big fence that happened to be up. Nobody asked him to do it - he simply loves jumping.

In the same way I have seen NH pinhookers bring youngsters into an arena with racing fences. They trot around and the ones who choose to jump are those that are singled out as future winners.

This is not about money, it's not about forcing anything, it's about finding out the horse's own talents. If he doesn't want to do it he'll never be worth more than the price of a nice amateur mount and that's okay, that's who he is. you can't make someone into something they are not.

I'm no expert on dressage but in the same way, as that seems to be your background, you might put a youngster in an arena and just watch how he moves. He's not going to need an audience or any incentive to see how he moves - he'll just do it and then you will know what you have on your hands. You will know the natural physical ability he has, obviously how trainable he is and wanting to learn will then be big factors along with that.

I'm finding aspects of your argument somewhat bizarre. Firstly, I don't see that it has a huge amount to do with the overall thread, which is not about whether or not the experts know what they are doing in order to succeed (which you seem to be most concerned with), but whether they are doing what is best for the horse's welfare. I'm sure we can all agree, whichever side of the fence we sit on, that success and equine welfare do not always go hand in hand. Yes the dressage trainer in question may know far more than anyone on this thread in terms of how to breed and produce a successful dressage horse, but that doesn't mean that what she is doing is necessarily the best thing for the welfare of the horses she produces. That is surely the key point here. And I don't particularly want to get drawn into the argument, so I'm not going to say what I personally think on the matter.

Secondly, I feel you are focusing too much on loose jumping and what horses do when left to their own devices. A lot of horses that go on to become superb show jumpers do not produce the perfect loose jump the first time they do it, nor do they jump fences for fun when loose in the paddock. They may not seem to like jumping or understand what it's all about. And I used to work with SJ horses, so I am speaking from experience. It is the training that is really important here, and the best trainers are the ones who can see past the messy first attempts at jumping to the talent underneath. Horses with the natural ability don't necessarily know how to use that ability without training, so there is no point reading too much into the loose jumping of an unbacked youngster unless it is truly shocking (though that is more to do with the natural ability not being there).

The idea that a two year old can be dismissed as an amateur ride because it found jumping a 1.30m spread stressful or whatever it is you said your friend does, is utterly bizarre to me. Goodness knows, my former boss is currently riding a superb six year old that he bred himself and I can tell you now that his early attempts at loose jumping produced some unfortunate results! Yet this is a horse that, currently, looks like he will be jumping 1.60m in the future. I really do find the idea of judging a two year old on how it jumps a 1.30m spread really strange. Don't forget that at two a lot of horses are legs all over the shop, and jumping a 1.30m spread is far harder than a little trot round the arena. I'm not saying no two year old could do it, but I suspect a lot of very talented ones wouldn't make a great job of it.

 

[milliepops]

Can a horse grow out of dishing as it strengthens? Double Bubble throws his legs out like a mad thing, it would be very distracting from the overall impression no matter how elevated and wonderful he may be in other respects.

With my case study of 1, yes.. my sec d was totally let down and very weak when I got her. She moved in a fairly unattractive way. With work and strength she's improved dramatically. So assuming that the legs are basically put on to the body correctly, which I assume they are for him to be a stallion prospect, I'd imagine it will settle over time at least a bit