Rollkur/Hyperflexion

ShowjumpingPrincess said:
it can be done with a snaffle and we never use draw reins or side reins other than lungine. the only training aids we EVER use while riding is the john whitaker training reins and a market harborough(i prefer these as they are fixed so are controlled by the horse, not the riders hands.)
Click to expand...

Not really wanting to be drawn into this debate, but I have to comment. A market harborough is NOT a soft bit of kit and of course it is the action of the riders hand that draw the horse's head inward and downward. The martingale part clips onto the reins at an adjustable tightness - how can you say the rider doesn't control this?!!
 
Goldenstar said:
I think it will be very difficult to prove rollkur causes KS , many many horses get KS and most of them will never have had any trainning useing this method.
There are older horses with very high mileage doing top level dressage who everyone know are trained using this method.
You do need to question everything that's how you learn and develop the systems you use a few years ago I was a clinic with a high level trainer there where about six of us in the school and I was riding a difficult project who was backed at ten having been driven before hand .
The trainer had me working very LDR and someone asked is that rollkur .
The trainer paused and said not really then asked if I minded if he got me to work the horse into the rollkur postions he took us through the system briefly of course but at no time did it stress the horse it was not forceful and I had normal contact throughout , however bred for driving this horse had conformation that makes it physically very easy to go into that position my OH ID for instance would find it very difficult and unpleasant .
It was a thought provoking session it's easy to get sucked in to the hype on both sides of these debates any form of training system can be unpleasant for the horse if applied unsympathetically .
Click to expand...

we've NEVER had any problems as far as injuries or health problems are concerned.w We warm up our horses first so that their muscles are warm and flexible
 
YasandCrystal said:
Not really wanting to be drawn into this debate, but I have to comment. A market harborough is NOT a soft bit of kit and of course it is the action of the riders hand that draw the horse's head inward and downward. The martingale part clips onto the reins at an adjustable tightness - how can you say the rider doesn't control this?!!
Click to expand...

at least its better than draw reins which can be VERY harsh and worse than a market harborough!
 
Goldenstar said:
On the calmer that's an interesting grey area , using say valerian is cheating as it is a sedative but giving magnesium oxide based products because horses are often short of magnesium in there diets if working and hard and getting most of their food from grazing a lot is a much more difficult one.
Some horses are considerably calmed by mag ox.
Click to expand...

But anything MARKETED as a calmer - vs, say, a nutritional supplement - is TECHNICALLY breaking the rules because it is the INTENT that's the issue, not the result. If you rub something on your horse's legs because you think it will sensitize them it's immaterial whether it works or not.

I am obviously playing devil's advocate a bit but the discussion is valid. Anyone who says, "I want to give my horse x because it gets fizzy at competitions and I can't sort that with work," is looking to change the horse's innate mentality by chemical means. Whether it can be tested for or not, or whether or not there are tests to prove it works, is technically immaterial.

This is why the herbal companies etc do not do tests on their products. (Well, this and the vast expense.) It is not actually in their best interests to prove they work because then they will be banned.
 
Pinkvboots said:
I have a warmblood mare with bony changes in the poll she cannot stand any poll pressure at all she will go nuts, physio thinks this could have been caused by hyperflexion performed at a very young age, when I first got her she would be very sensitive in the school and often get quite distressed, out hacking she is a totally different horse, which makes me think most of her discomfort stems from being in a menage being schooled, she trusts me now but she can be very sensitive and has to be ridden with real care, this horse just screams out that someone has ridden her really harsh and has caused pain and she has not forgotten.

So I for one do not agree with hyperflexion or rollkur, my horses are ridden in a classical way nothing is forced and they are both happy to be ridden in an outline without force or bullying.
Click to expand...

Or it COULD have been caused by having her head tied down, or a very strong leverage bit, or by damage from pulling back (a very common source of neck injuries) or even by a fall. And her tension in the school COULD have been caused by someone trying to make her go "in a frame" after she was already injured and she made that association, whereas out hacking they just let her be. I had one that used to freak in the school because he had melanomas in his throat and when the rider tried to pull his nose in he panicked. Hacked or jumped on a looser rein, he'd go all day.
 
ShowjumpingPrincess said:
at least its better than draw reins which can be VERY harsh and worse than a market harborough!
Click to expand...

That's true, but draw reins used in the correct hands and as a second rein can have a place in ridden rehab training imo. I tried out a pony in a market harborough years ago for my daughter and the owner had actually even knotted the branches from the martingale to make it more severe and then tried to tell me that the pony really didn't need it :eek:

I think the problem with many of these 'gadgets' is that they become items of torture in the hands of the inexperienced or those who just do not understand why they are using them. It's like showing a stunt trick on the the TV - the warning is REALLY do not try this at home - these are professionals!!

I attended a show at the weekend and I witnessed the worst case of abuse riding I have seen in public ever. The horse's mouth was repeatedly sawn at by a strong male rider in the warmup area (this was as a punishment AFTER his test) and with the horse's tongue hanging out of it's mouth and clearly distressed he continued to canter that poor horse into the ground round and round for at least 10 minutes in the heat. I don't know how I bit my tongue, but I registered a complaint today it upset me so much. Some people just don't get it and they shouldn't be near a horse.:(
 
ShowjumpingPrincess said:
Rapping is stupid and it just puts horses off jumping. I would never use it! IT DOESN'T WORK!! anyone that thinks a horse would work better by having a pole painfully rapped against its legs shouldn't be around horses! But hyperflexion does have benefits!
Click to expand...

"Rapping" in the way you understand it is likely to be painful and cruel, but there are many different ways of skillfully "touching up" a horse - I don't do it myself because I have nowhere near enough knowledge to do so and no need for it, and nor does anyone I am affiliated with - and no need for it for me, I only jump small classes for fun - but it would be very naive to think that no successful show jumping professionals get involved with these practises. And there are many ways that are less cruel and more effective than simply bashing a horses legs with a pole.

Again, a grey area indeed, and very very difficult to categorically state what is and isn't cruel. I think we all agree that bashing a horses legs with a heavy pole or sensitising the skin is cruel - but what about something as simple as building a grid specifically designed to practise something the horse finds difficult - it is likely to hit the fence a few times, and the reason that most jumping horses get their legs out of the way is because it does't feel nice to have poles down!

In short - the best way to never do anything that may be considered cruel is to not participate in any equestrian sports. :D
 
YasandCrystal said:
I think the problem with many of these 'gadgets' is that they become items of torture in the hands of the inexperienced or those who just do not understand why they are using them. It's like showing a stunt trick on the the TV - the warning is REALLY do not try this at home - these are professionals!!
Click to expand...

Absolutely this for a multitude of issues.
 
ShowjumpingPrincess said:
Rapping is stupid and it just puts horses off jumping. I would never use it! IT DOESN'T WORK!! anyone that thinks a horse would work better by having a pole painfully rapped against its legs shouldn't be around horses! But hyperflexion does have benefits!
Click to expand...

Really? George Morris (and others) says it does. USED APPROPRIATELY, not by throwing poles at horse's legs. And I bet he knows a bit more about getting horses jumping well than you do. If you've never used it how do you know it doesn't work? ;) As little flea says, why is that worse than setting something to give a horse a rub?

Again, not advocating it and I've more often seen it done incorrectly and for the wrong reasons than by someone who really knows what they are up to and gets a good result. I don't do it, I've never done it, and it's not for me but then I ride young horses mostly, and jump them over small jumps. But it your response makes me laugh. :) Pot, meet kettle. :D
 
Last edited:
TarrSteps said:
Really? George Morris (and others) says it does. USED APPROPRIATELY And I bet he knows a bit more about getting horses jumping well than you do. If you've never used it how do you know it doesn't work? ;)

Again, not advocating it and I've more often seen it done incorrectly and for the wrong reasons than by someone who really knows what they are up to and gets a good result. But it your response makes me laugh. :) Pot, meet kettle. :D
Click to expand...

Quite...
 
ShowjumpingPrincess said:
we've NEVER had any problems as far as injuries or health problems are concerned.w We warm up our horses first so that their muscles are warm and flexible
Click to expand...

Okay, now I know you're lying. :) Even the very best horsemen, people who have produced many horses that have lasted at the top, have horses that get injured, especially if they are playing at the margins of the game.
 
Last edited:
TarrSteps said:
Really? George Morris (and others) says it does. USED APPROPRIATELY, not by throwing poles at horse's legs. And I bet he knows a bit more about getting horses jumping well than you do. If you've never used it how do you know it doesn't work? ;) As little flea says, why is that worse than setting something to give a horse a rub?

Again, not advocating it and I've more often seen it done incorrectly and for the wrong reasons than by someone who really knows what they are up to and gets a good result. I don't do it, I've never done it, and it's not for me but then I ride young horses mostly, and jump them over small jumps. But it your response makes me laugh. :) Pot, meet kettle. :D
Click to expand...

i had a jumping coach that said it would be beneficial to my old 13.3hh connemara Cloud that used to have a fit when she touched a pole as apparantly rapping would help her 'get used to it' (looking back i cant believe i listened to her advice but i was only nine!) Cloud was so stressed out after five minutes of it that when i took her to the jump she refused, spun round,reared up and almost threw me off, my instructor got on her and started smacking her head with a whip she tried to get her to jump it but she ended up rearing up and falling into the arena fence.this all happened when she was 7 years old and she was a bit of late maturer! it took almost two months to get her to go anywhere near an arena (after that lesson we got a new coach) a further three months to get her to settle in the arena and start schooling and almost a year to get her to jump a small cross pole. She never quite recovered and we decided to breed a foal from her when she was nine (that was two years ago). Thankfully she settled after that and now she competes with my ten year old brother. but she will still never go in the arena where it happened.... horses have the memory of an elephant!
 
ShowjumpingPrincess said:
i had a jumping coach that said it would be beneficial to my old 13.3hh connemara Cloud that used to have a fit when she touched a pole as apparantly rapping would help her 'get used to it' (looking back i cant believe i listened to her advice but i was only nine!) Cloud was so stressed out after five minutes of it that when i took her to the jump she refused, spun round,reared up and almost threw me off, my instructor got on her and started smacking her head with a whip she tried to get her to jump it but she ended up rearing up and falling into the arena fence.this all happened when she was 7 years old and she was a bit of late maturer! it took almost two months to get her to go anywhere near an arena (after that lesson we got a new coach) a further three months to get her to settle in the arena and start schooling and almost a year to get her to jump a small cross pole. She never quite recovered and we decided to breed a foal from her when she was nine (that was two years ago). Thankfully she settled after that and now she competes with my ten year old brother. but she will still never go in the arena where it happened.... horses have the memory of an elephant!
Click to expand...

Um, that's not rapping, that's REALLY bad riding.
 
The only SJ trainer I have even known who used rapping (very very carefully, in very special cases) had trained with Paul Schockemohle. Have you ever heard of him, OP?
Like most things with horses, it has to be done VERY judiciously with perfect timing.

ShowjumpingPrincess said:
a horse isn't really 'finished' dressage wise (can walk,trot,canter nicely, do flying change and able to collect and lengthen its stride) until it is around five, and this is not what i would class as a 'youngster'. we never would work a horse using this method whether we have bred it ourselves or bought it already started until it is at this age. some horses we buy that were started late don't have this method until they are 7 years old which is definitely not a youngster! it all depends on what stage of training the horse is at but we would never do it to break in a horse.
Click to expand...

A horse is 'finished' dressage wise, and no longer a 'youngster', at 'around five'. *boggles*

Really? Really really? Is that supposed to be a joke?

I think that if you keep riding horses one day you will look back at how much you thought you knew at this age, and how little you actually know, and squirm. A lot.

Do you know anything about a horse building up strength as it is worked, and learns to take more weight behind? This takes years, even in truly expert hands. For instance a, say, 12 yr old GP showjumper's canter would be VERY different to the same horse's canter at, say, 6 years old. Do you see that?

As for the 'none of our horses have ever been injured by our training methods' stance - really? Do you keep track of them into their twenties to see if they are still sound and working? Because that's one way of being pretty sure that your system did not damage THAT particular horse, anyway...
 
OP, haven't we actually established that you don't actually use Rollkur and you just ride them a bit overbent and deep? When shown photos of actual rollkur you said you DIDNT do that and it was more like the photos that were shown which noone has any issue with?

Not sure why you are still defending something which you yourself said you wouldn't do???
 
galaxy said:
OP, haven't we actually established that you don't actually use Rollkur and you just ride them a bit overbent and deep? When shown photos of actual rollkur you said you DIDNT do that and it was more like the photos that were shown which noone has any issue with?

Not sure why you are still defending something which you yourself said you wouldn't do???
Click to expand...

we ride a bit deeper than the photos posted, but not that much. :)
 
galaxy said:
OP, haven't we actually established that you don't actually use Rollkur and you just ride them a bit overbent and deep? When shown photos of actual rollkur you said you DIDNT do that and it was more like the photos that were shown which noone has any issue with?

Not sure why you are still defending something which you yourself said you wouldn't do???
Click to expand...

Because she's bored. :) It's half term.

Anyway, OP, galaxy has a point.
 
OP, at some point, we learn that it's best to listen to, and respect the views of others who are generally older and have seen more of the world than ourselves! I cringe when I both look at videos and pictures of me riding when I was 13 and think about how much I thought I knew at that age! In fact I'm embarrassed when I look at videos of me riding this time last year when I was working on a top event yard training with some of the best people in the country and I thought I was starting to get the hang of this riding business! This isn't because they were bad trainers or it was a bad experience at all, in fact quite the opposite, I learnt LOADS, it's just with horses your always learning something new! And I'm sure the same thing will happen at the end of this season and so on...we are all learning all the time!
 
YOU didn't hit your pony on the head to make it jump. :)

Also, the situation you describe is not one in which any person who is in favour of rapping would use it, let alone anyone else might see it as justified if unnecessary, so it's really not representative, you see? If I stabbed you with a kitchen knife that wouldn't mean that's what it kitchen knives are for or that they can't be useful in other circumstances.

Ah, you're in Germany. That also explains things a bit. Go ask your coach tomorrow if he/she rides in rolkur. :)
 
CaleruxShearer said:
OP, at some point, we learn that it's best to listen to, and respect the views of others who are generally older and have seen more of the world than ourselves! I cringe when I both look at videos and pictures of me riding when I was 13 and think about how much I thought I knew at that age! In fact I'm embarrassed when I look at videos of me riding this time last year when I was working on a top event yard training with some of the best people in the country and I thought I was starting to get the hang of this riding business! This isn't because they were bad trainers or it was a bad experience at all, in fact quite the opposite, I learnt LOADS, it's just with horses your always learning something new! And I'm sure the same thing will happen at the end of this season and so on...we are all learning all the time!
Click to expand...

you have a point:)but my mum has competed at top level in dressage and eventing, and she is the one that teaches me most of the time (my instructor gives me lessons once or twice a week) and my dad has trained top show horses and dressage horses and they are the people that introduced me to the methods. i know what you mean though, i look at videos of me and cloud (the pony that was ruined through rapping) competing and it really makes me cringe at my riding!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top