Rollkur/Hyperflexion

TarrSteps said:
YOU didn't hit your pony on the head to make it jump. :)

Also, the situation you describe is not one in which any person who is in favour of rapping would use it, let alone anyone else might see it as justified if unnecessary, so it's really not representative, you see? If I stabbed you with a kitchen knife that wouldn't mean that's what it kitchen knives are for or that they can't be useful in other circumstances.

Ah, you're in Germany. That also explains things a bit. Go ask your coach tomorrow if he/she rides in rollkur. :)
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i'm not sure about my old one (the one that did the rapping) as she only taught me showjumping, but i think that my current coach does, i don't see her ride much, but she once did a bit of schooling on one of my mums dressage horses and i'm pretty sure she meant for it to go as deep as it did, which was quite deep! although i think she uses hyperflexion, my coach is really kind to horses, she often makes me ride bareback or with a head collar instead of a bridle if i'm using my hands to much or not using my legs enough!
 
I think the key word here, OP, is 'opinions'.
You have your opinions, such as rapping and hunting is worst than Rollkur/Hyperflexion...and you expect us to respect your opinion without going in all guns blazing, right? We, meaning most people replying to this thread, also have our own opinions. Yet we accept yours, however peculiar they may seem to us, and are trying to have a mature 'debate' of facts. Rollkur/Hyperflexion is actually an interesting topic, but at the moment we cannot really talk about it seriously because you keep coming in with excuses, saying our opinion is wrong.
I think if you maybe listened, this post would be a lot different.
That is what I've gotten from reading this, anyway. Again, that is my opinion. :)

And please don't use the 'I'm only 13' card. I myself am 14, and still manage to be mature about things.
And even now I've looked back at things I've said and done even last year and thought 'wait what!?' :rolleyes: :D
 
I dont usually comment on things like this, but when someone says a horse is "finished" dressagewise at the age of five, and is no longer a youngster at this age....... Wow, what a frightening perspective!
 
And a child. :) I thought I knew a lot at 13, too! Heck, I wasn't much older when I started to teach! Terrifying thought!

She'll learn, just like everyone else. :)
 
I have to say at thirteen I was busy keeping my eyes and ears open and my mouth shut I would never have been brave enough to post somewhere like this ( if it had existed ) so admire OP for that.
We where all young once cut her some slack.
 
i love watching all these negative comments about this! when i let my horse loose in either the arena or field (bear in the mind this is a retrained racehorse that is now a show hack not a dressage horse nor showjumper anything but has done abit or everything!) she goes straight into trot her neck so curved she is in fact overbent with her chin nearly on her chest and powers through her back...there is no lines on her what so ever so this must be natural as she is never ridden with rollkur etc. my last pony, a Connemara had serious problems coming onto the it we had back teeth everything checked got the softest warmest bit out there and went to our trainer and he suggested use hyperflexion. at no point was she 'held in' that position as it isn't a locking movement. he simply told me to roll my wrist round to the inside which moved the bit got the ponies attention and near as damn it every time she lowered her head(not behind the vertical) and had slight bend to the inside after two or three strides he told me to release. not cruelty nor torture my horse was never unhappy or in discomfort!:o
 
naid pollyanna said:
i love watching all these negative comments about this! when i let my horse loose in either the arena or field (bear in the mind this is a retrained racehorse that is now a show hack not a dressage horse nor showjumper anything but has done abit or everything!) she goes straight into trot her neck so curved she is in fact overbent with her chin nearly on her chest and powers through her back...there is no lines on her what so ever so this must be natural as she is never ridden with rollkur etc. my last pony, a Connemara had serious problems coming onto the it we had back teeth everything checked got the softest warmest bit out there and went to our trainer and he suggested use hyperflexion. at no point was she 'held in' that position as it isn't a locking movement. he simply told me to roll my wrist round to the inside which moved the bit got the ponies attention and near as damn it every time she lowered her head(not behind the vertical) and had slight bend to the inside after two or three strides he told me to release. not cruelty nor torture my horse was never unhappy or in discomfort!:o
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if the pony wasnt BTV, how were you using hyperflexion?!
 
because it was using the same motion and technique. i admit obviously whilst using it there were times she was btv but overall her way of going after the two or three strides of it she wasnt! sorry if i caused confusion! she was only ever in hyerflexion for the most four trot strides then she was straight on the vertical not above or behind, i cant explain things at all! haha.
 
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naid pollyanna said:
because it was using the same motion and technique. i admit maybe at some points she might of been. but my instructor taught me proprly how to perform hyperflexion and the aids i needed to use/give na dit never once set her too deep even though asking for it. you can give the aids without it being taken to far as my instructor said numerous times to me, he was a dutch dressage rider!
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Are you sure you aren't talking about flexion rather than hyperflexion? Flexion is a technique all riders probably use, whereas hyperflexion is the act of putting a horses nose on it's chest and riding with it there.
 
galaxy said:
Are you sure you aren't talking about flexion rather than hyperflexion? Flexion is a technique all riders probably use, whereas hyperflexion is the act of putting a horses nose on it's chest and riding with it there.
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no when we first got her we used flexion but she was so set on the bit and unwilling we used hyperflexion. i watched my instructor ride numerous times using it on his horses and yes there were behind the vertical and very deep but not nose on chest, not at all just flexion.
 
naid pollyanna said:
he simply told me to roll my wrist round to the inside which moved the bit got the ponies attention and near as damn it every time she lowered her head(not behind the vertical) and had slight bend to the inside after two or three strides he told me to release.
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this just doesn't sound like hyperflexion to me it sounds like flexion. You bent your pony to the inside for a few strides and then released.....
 
daffy44 said:
I don't usually comment on things like this, but when someone says a horse is "finished" dressage wise at the age of five, and is no longer a youngster at this age....... Wow, what a frightening perspective!
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i meant that a horse is ready to compete and is no longer a 'baby'. if you hadn't noticed, i put in brackets that i meant that most horses have their walk, trot and canter sorted out, can lengthen and shorten their stride and can do flying changes. and i also said that horses can be a lot older when they are at this stage, but this is the stage that we usually start working them 'deep and round' and it at this stage we start schooling them in a double bridle (or rugby pelham) and start competing them
 
kerilli said:
ditto, I raised exactly this point on the previous page. Unfortunately the OP chose to ignore it completely.
Incredibly ignorant.
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i dont know what time you posted this, but i didn't ignore you! last night i had to go and rug up my horses and then i went to bed and i didn't even have enough time for breakfast this morning as i had to get up at 5.45am to get ready for competing today! i've only just got back!

how am i ignorant?
 
ShowjumpingPrincess said:
i meant that a horse is ready to compete and is no longer a 'baby'. if you hadn't noticed, i put in brackets that i meant that most horses have their walk, trot and canter sorted out, can lengthen and shorten their stride and can do flying changes. and i also said that horses can be a lot older when they are at this stage, but this is the stage that we usually start working them 'deep and round' and it at this stage we start schooling them in a double bridle (or rugby pelham) and start competing them
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Your 5yos can do flying changes?!? Ours still have to come back to trot!
Did anyone else see in Horse and Hound, either last week or the week before, the article on Jock Paget - he said that even at 15 he thought Clifton Promise was still maturing :D
 
I don't think OP is talking about 5-year olds doing one time tempis - but 5-year old SJ age classes are 1.20m plus so you really want them to be able to change canter lead if required to jump round a track like that.
 
little_flea said:
I don't think OP is talking about 5-year olds doing one time tempis - but 5-year old SJ age classes are 1.20m plus so you really want them to be able to change canter lead if required to jump round a track like that.
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exactly!

and most dressage horses will have at least started single changes. TBH i think its quite *behind* if a 5yo hasnt started changes,even if still green and not on the aid.

CS started changes at the end of his 4yo year.
 
This is why i dont usually post on these sort of threads! The word the OP used in respect to 5yr olds was "finished" if a dressage horse is finished it has had an awful lot more training as far as i'm concerned. I also believe a 5yr old is still young, especially if it is a warmblood, quite apart from scientific evidence of growth plate development etc, there is a reason the FEI put mimium ages on specific classes, to prevent horses being damaged by a level of competing inappropiate to their age. Young horse classes in all disciplines are for 4, 5 and 6yr old horses, so 5 is definately still young in my opinion. I dont have a problem with a 5yr old dressage horse having done a little work on changes if that horse is ready, but i dont think it should be trained automatically at that age, it depends very much on the individual horses strength, balance, etc. Show jumping changes are very different to a dressage horses changes, if a young show jumper changes a little late behind, or if it is swung about a bit to achieve the change it doesnt matter, the same can not be said for the change of a dressage horse.
My current 5yr old has a clean, easy change on my aid and has had from the first time of asking, but my current Small Tour horse didnt start changes til she was at the end of her 6yr old year, all horses progress at different rates, and in my opinion, if you want to get the best from a horse, you have to respect each horses individual time frame.
 
perhaps people could have asked for a cleared explanation of what she meant by finished rather than jumping down her throat?

for me a 5yo is on the brink of when baby work becomes slightly more grown up in the way of going and the questions asked and perhaps that is what OP meant?

agree re treating each horse as an individual but generally most dressage riders aim to have a change mostly established as a 5yo. My PSG horse started them as a 4yo and if done in a fun, easy, happy way i dont think they pressure them at all.

from the way the OP has spoken, it sounds like she has a yard of nice/quality horses, so probably the *sort* to be able to do a change at 4/5yo without it being an issue.

this reads like an absolute witch hunt, you use hyperflexion-we shall strike you down, oh no actually you dont but you DO do changes on youngsters-we will strike you down anyway!
 
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