RSPCA originally formed by pro hunt Conservative MP

[JanetGeorge]

The video footage of the incident however clearly shows these antis up and reveals their true colours. Their first words upon killing Morse were not shock, or horror, but a sneering voice which said "Oh look, the stupid **** didn't get out of the way".

And - of course - that wasn't the pilot but the very 'sinister' AR nutter, John Curtin! His presence was NOT disclosed to the jury: if they'd known he was there - and had details of his criminal record - the verdict might have been rather different!

 

[JanetGeorge]

Ha ha. Err, slightly flawed argument, because animals ripping each other apart in the wild is FOR SURVIVAL. Not to provide entertainment for people such as yourself.

See my reply to competitiondiva above! If hunt followers needed 'entertainment' value from the killing of a fox, they'd quickly give up hunting. The killing of foxes was strictly between the huntsman/hounds - and the farmers who allowed us to gallop over their land!

Now that a normal day's hunting doesn't include killing foxes, some farmers don't allow hunting any more. Thankfully, most do - in return for fox control work done by the huntsman, 2 hounds and some shooters!

MOST mounted followers go hunting purely for the ride it provides - over country and jumps they would not normally have access to, with friends. Some enjoy the houndwork too - although it's usually the foot followers who appreciate and see more of the houndwork.

When MOST kills happen, the mounted followers can be half-a-mile away!

 

[Moomin1]

So in that case why do the majority of hunts folk get so bothered by the ban? Drag hunting should be just as enjoyable

 

[competitiondiva]

my parallel may not have been 100% the same, but both are artificial situations created by man using an animals instincts. And I never mentioned stallions??!! Not sure where that one came in!

Anyway, right or wrong, the debate will go on for a long long time, those pro will never change their opinions and neither will those who are against. So where do we go from here. Well we abide by the law. And until the law changes, it is Illegal to hunt using a pack of dogs. So those that hunt legally, continue away, those that don't, don't moan when you get caught and don't then accuse the RSPCA of being political if they take a prosecution against you. And if you don't agree with the law, then lobby your MP for a change. After all who are we to pick and choose with laws are upheld and which aren't???

 

[JanetGeorge]

So in that case why do the majority of hunts folk get so bothered by the ban? Drag hunting should be just as enjoyable

Because we KNOW what was behind it; we KNOW what the alternatives are (for the fox) - and draghunting actually provides a totally different type of riding. Draghunting is faster, jumping is virtually compulsory. You need a much fitter horse, and there's far less time for a good chin-wag!

 

[Hunters]

Trail hunting is what's done now & mostly it works well. The scent tends to make hounds run faster as it's so pungent.

The only problem, is if a fox should be 'put up' that's when it gets tricky for a huntsman.

I don't envy any huntsman's job these days. It must be very hard, even harder with antis thrusting video cameras everywhere.

Hunting has knitted the countryside together for generations, whether it be drag hunting or trail hunting, long may it continue.

 

[SarahColeman]

Dog fights are 'engineered' by breeding aggressive dogs, bringing them up to be aggressive, and putting them in a situation where they can't run away - they fight - or they die! And sick barstewards bet on the outcome and are 'entertained' by the pain they suffer - and the blood that flows!

I know we are heading off topic but fighting dogs are not bred for aggression they are bred for gameness. Being aggressive produces no fighting ability, stamina or guts. Just as in humans.

 

[SarahColeman]

Trail hunting is what's done now & mostly it works well. The scent tends to make hounds run faster as it's so pungent.

The only problem, is if a fox should be 'put up' that's when it gets tricky for a huntsman.

I don't envy any huntsman's job these days. It must be very hard, even harder with antis thrusting video cameras everywhere.

Hunting has knitted the countryside together for generations, whether it be drag hunting or trail hunting, long may it continue.

If you change the scent used and stopped cub hunting their wouldn't be a single accident. The law and the antis are not the problem it is the huntsmen themselves!

 

[Fellewell]

by your arguement then dog fighting should be allowed as they are doing what comes naturally to them??

Dog fights are not used to control numbers and keep them healthy.

Last time I looked dogs were being cruelly destroyed by indiscriminate breeding.

 

[JanetGeorge]

my parallel may not have been 100% the same, but both are artificial situations created by man using an animals instincts. And I never mentioned stallions??!! Not sure where that one came in!

Stallions fighting was just another example of what is 'natural' to animals - and what isn't! Although there are some barstewards in other countries that 'organise' stallion fights for entertainment.

The BIG difference between the blood 'sports' - and foxhunting - is that the blood 'sports' involve animals in close and captive surroundings so that they can't escape when the going gets rough - and so the barstewards who organise these 'sports' can enjoy the carnage and bet on the result!

Foxhunting is actually totally natural. Although foxes are a smallish predator - they have always been 'prey' for larger carnivores (wolves/coyotes etc.) You don't need a trained foxhound to have a dog that will chase a fox - my YorkiexJack is constantly after them although he hasn't managed to catch one, and my Springer also used to chase them! The fox chooses 'flight' from ANYTHING that might threaten it - it puts a safe distance between itself and the 'hunter' (last year I watched 2 of my foals 'hunting' a fox around the field!!)

Putting a safe distance between itself - and whatever it perceives as a threat - is totally natural to the fox and it is not particularly frightened. As soon as there's a safe distance, fox goes about his normal business until the 'threat' gets close again.

People go on and on about a hunted fox being 'terrified' - it's not - because it keeps running. Some years ago, an RSPCA PROVED that hunted foxes are not terrified! He'd just released a fox back into the wild - he removed it from its crate and put it on the ground - and it FROZE - for several minutes. RSPCA Inspector explained that he was too scared to run! Funnily enough, I've never seen a hunted fox 'freeze'!

 

[Luci07]

There is a lot of emphasis on the fact that the law must not be broken. Constantly.

I would say if we don't agree, we need to challenge (which we do). Used to be legal to hang a child for stealing a loaf of bread!

 

[Hunters]

I think SarahColeman should run the country, no, change that, run the world. She has an answer to everything & if she is beyond reason, she shouts.

By God, she can perform miracles, she says that 'fox' hounds shouldn't chase fox scent lol!!

She will have them chasing bananas next - or perhaps that will be monitored by the banana police!

Most funniest and stupid post yet

 

[Fellewell]

Ha ha. Err, slightly flawed argument, because animals ripping each other apart in the wild is FOR SURVIVAL. Not to provide entertainment for people such as yourself.

I'm guessing you don't keep chickens.

 

[JanetGeorge]

I know we are heading off topic but fighting dogs are not bred for aggression they are bred for gameness. Being aggressive produces no fighting ability, stamina or guts. Just as in humans.

Mmm - an expert on dog fighting?? The ASPCA would disagree - to quote their fact sheet:

Q. Can All dogs Be Trained to Fight?

No. Much like herding dogs, trailing dogs and other breeds selected for particular roles, fighting dogs are born ready for the training that will prepare them to succeed in the pit, and are bred to have a high degree of dog aggression.

 

[JanetGeorge]

If you change the scent used and stopped cub hunting their wouldn't be a single accident. The law and the antis are not the problem it is the huntsmen themselves!

Oh dear - you're an expert on dog fighting (not!) and now you're an expert on foxhounds! Actually, I know a LOT more about foxhounds than I do about fighting breeds - as I've walked a LOT of foxhound puppies (from 8 weeks to 8-10 months of age.) ALL of them have shown a natural instinct to chase foxes from a young age. Two bitches I had - at 4 months - put up a fox on my farm and hunted it over 3 more farms and onto a pub car park before they lost the scent! Little poppets woud chase most things but it was easy to teach them NOT to chase sheep etc - because they were on hand when needed!

Foxhounds have been bred for their ability to hunt foxes for some 250 years - it is totally natural to them and they don't have to be trained to do it - they just have to be trained to accept commands - such as 'leave it', and 'get back to him' (the huntsman) etc etc etc - and NOT to chase anything else! It would be extremely difficult to train a foxhound to hunt an alternative scent. Bloodhounds, of course, hunt a human scent - something THEY have been bred for for hundreds of years!

Oh - and cubjunting HAS stopped - it is just as illegal as hunting mature foxes!

 

[Alec Swan]

So in that case why do the majority of hunts folk get so bothered by the ban? Drag hunting should be just as enjoyable

It isn't, it's that simple. Hunting, complete with its failed days, provides the chance of an achievable end. Following someone who's laid a trail, is tedious, predictable and boring.

It's all about the word. To HUNT, is to seek out and to hold and to achieve and to posses. It is an entirely natural instinct in some, and a base instinct, which is not understood by others.

The small boy who sets his first mouse trap, and catches his first mouse, is no different from the man who spends hours on The Hill, closing with his prize, a stag. He's no different from the man who encourages his hounds to hunt. He's no different from those who scour auction sites or antique shops looking for bargains. Hunting in its many forms, can be a passion.

OK, so when rummaging around in antique shops, nothing dies, but that isn't the point, it's the attached passion, which matters. You wont understand, I understand, but it's the way that it is with some, and for others to tell me what I should or shouldn't do, and so consider themselves to be my conscience, is irksome. For that very good reason, I pay scant regard to those Laws which I consider unreasonable. I consider my actions to be of a "Testing" nature. Report me, see if I care.

Alec.

 

[SarahColeman]

Mmm - an expert on dog fighting?? The ASPCA would disagree - to quote their fact sheet:

I certainly do not need to read ASPCA fact sheet propaganda and quote it to make a point about a subject but your frankly smarmy comment regarding "expert", is duly noted. I fully disagree that pit fighting dogs were either bred to be dog aggressive or need to be bred aggressive/encouraged to be aggressive to fight. The one thing that those attempting to combat dog fighting could or more likely would not accept is pit dogs for two hundred years have been bred to simply enjoy fighting. Let them get on with it and they will very quietly try to take each other apart whilst wagging their tails!

 

[SarahColeman]

Oh dear - you're an expert on dog fighting (not!) and now you're an expert on foxhounds! Actually, I know a LOT more about foxhounds than I do about fighting breeds - as I've walked a LOT of foxhound puppies (from 8 weeks to 8-10 months of age.) ALL of them have shown a natural instinct to chase foxes from a young age. Two bitches I had - at 4 months - put up a fox on my farm and hunted it over 3 more farms and onto a pub car park before they lost the scent! Little poppets woud chase most things but it was easy to teach them NOT to chase sheep etc - because they were on hand when needed!

Foxhounds have been bred for their ability to hunt foxes for some 250 years - it is totally natural to them and they don't have to be trained to do it - they just have to be trained to accept commands - such as 'leave it', and 'get back to him' (the huntsman) etc etc etc - and NOT to chase anything else! It would be extremely difficult to train a foxhound to hunt an alternative scent. Bloodhounds, of course, hunt a human scent - something THEY have been bred for for hundreds of years!

Oh - and cubjunting HAS stopped - it is just as illegal as hunting mature foxes!

How wonderful for you Superwoman! The simple truth is if you can train a foxhound not to chase sheep and other animals you can train it NOT to chase foxes. You claim it would be difficult to train a foxhound to follow an alternative scent, why???? And no cub hunting has not stopped but given the RSPCA's new funding system it will be very soon.

 

[competitiondiva]

I find it rather alarming, or maybe I'm naive that so many of you have such disregard for the laws of this country. Whether you like it or not, it is the law. You might not agree with it, similarly dog fighters don't agree with the law making their sport illegal. If we all only follow the law we want to abide by where would the country be? Bearing in mind everyone is different and holds different values in life. Should the person who believes they can speed through the school zone be allowed to? If so many of you are willing to flaunt the law is there any wonder when prosecutions are brought. What you do with your life is up to you, but if you break the law it also becomes the interest of the public. And if you are held accountable for your actions don't stomp your feet like a petulant child. You are all adults responsible for your own actions.

 

[SarahColeman]

I could not agree more competitiondiva but suspect one of the more vocal 'anarchists', is actually posting from his room in the nursing home, wishing he wasn't so frail and miffed that he is daily forced to do exactly what he is told to.

 

[JanetGeorge]

The simple truth is if you can train a foxhound not to chase sheep and other animals you can train it NOT to chase foxes. You claim it would be difficult to train a foxhound to follow an alternative scent, why???? And no cub hunting has not stopped but given the RSPCA's new funding system it will be very soon.

WRONG! Unless you caught up live foxes and enclosed them so you could 'introduce' them to foxhounds in a VERY confined space! Do you have ANY idea how foxhounds are trained NOT to chase sheep (and they haven't been bred to chase sheep for 250 years!!) They are NOT easy dogs to train.

And - what scent would you use?? And how would you train them to follow it? I'd really like to hear what ideas you have. They actually aren't very good at finding chocolate biscuits - although they WILL find raw or cooked meat quickly. But there'd be an obvious problem in laying a beef scent!

Cubhunting IS illegal and most hunts ARE following the law!! In Autumn, criss-cross trails are laid in a covert to help teach the young hounds to get their heads dow and follow a scent - rather than chasing the first thing they see.

I don't think the RSPCA's 'new funding system' will have any effect other than perhaps to teach hunts who are a bit careless to cover themselves rather more carefully!

 

[Hunters]

My jack Russell catches & kills rats, I neither showed her how to do it, nor would I be able to stop her.

The retriever, when the terrier has finished playing with the rat, retrieves it. The clue is in how the animal is bred.

Hardly rocket science lol.

 

[SarahColeman]

WRONG! Unless you caught up live foxes and enclosed them so you could 'introduce' them to foxhounds in a VERY confined space! Do you have ANY idea how foxhounds are trained NOT to chase sheep (and they haven't been bred to chase sheep for 250 years!!) They are NOT easy dogs to train.

And - what scent would you use?? And how would you train them to follow it? I'd really like to hear what ideas you have. They actually aren't very good at finding chocolate biscuits - although they WILL find raw or cooked meat quickly. But there'd be an obvious problem in laying a beef scent!

Cubhunting IS illegal and most hunts ARE following the law!! In Autumn, criss-cross trails are laid in a covert to help teach the young hounds to get their heads dow and follow a scent - rather than chasing the first thing they see.

I don't think the RSPCA's 'new funding system' will have any effect other than perhaps to teach hunts who are a bit careless to cover themselves rather more carefully!

You can TRY and make it sound as difficult as you wish to retrain the hounds and of course I could start by suggesting the hundreds of foxes in the safe care of the rescue groups could be used. But, what will happen is you will find another excuse and then another because certain people want to retain the hounds so they can keep killing
Of course, you can mock the fine work of the RSPCA and hint at lawbreakers just doing so more cleverly but they will get you, they are coming for your criminals

 

[cptrayes]

Foxhounds have been bred for their ability to hunt foxes for some 250 years - it is totally natural to them and they don't have to be trained to do it - they just have to be trained to accept commands - such as 'leave it', and 'get back to him' (the huntsman) etc etc etc - and NOT to chase anything else! It would be extremely difficult to train a foxhound to hunt an alternative scent.

My bolding. Ummmmmm?

Drag packs use foxhounds and hunt a scent with no problems.

Hunts which are hunting legally have switched their foxhounds to hunt a scent with few problems.

Can't see this is right Janet, sorry

 

[Moomin1]

I could not agree more competitiondiva but suspect one of the more vocal 'anarchists', is actually posting from his room in the nursing home, wishing he wasn't so frail and miffed that he is daily forced to do exactly what he is told to.

Brilliant!

 

[JanetGeorge]

You can TRY and make it sound as difficult as you wish to retrain the hounds and of course I could start by suggesting the hundreds of foxes in the safe care of the rescue groups could be used.

Gee - I bet the rescue groups would LOVE that idea! Captive foxes at risk of being chased by hounds (and killed if the huntsman wasn't quick enough)!

Of course, you can mock the fine work of the RSPCA and hint at lawbreakers just doing so more cleverly but they will get you, they are coming for your criminals

I'm not interested in lawbreakers being 'clever' - what I AM concerned about is hunts that are doing their utmost to hunt within the law ensuring they take care - video their trail laying etc - so that IF they find themselves facing charges because of an accidental riot on fox they'll be able to PROVE without doubt that it WAS an accident!

 

[JanetGeorge]

My bolding. Ummmmmm?

Drag packs use foxhounds and hunt a scent with no problems.

Hunts which are hunting legally have switched their foxhounds to hunt a scent with few problems.

Can't see this is right Janet, sorry

MOST drag hunts use foxhounds who proved poor scenting hounds - the MUCH stronger scent used for draghunting suits them - and because the drags are laid over 'prepared' lines, it's less likely a fox will pop up in their path.

Hunts which ARE hunting legally have plenty of problems, believe me. Hounds will see/scent a fox and they're off! If the huntsman or whipper-in are close enough they can stop them pretty quickly - if they're not (and hunt monitors are at hand) chances are they will be prosecuted!

You really don't know much about hunting, do you!

 

[cptrayes]

MOST drag hunts use foxhounds who proved poor scenting hounds -

That would be why the two packs I hunt with will regularly attempt to follow a fox scent and be called off, would it?

drags are laid over 'prepared' lines, it's less likely a fox will pop up in their path.

I'm sorry Janet but this doesn't make sense. Our hounds often pick up fox and try to follow it and are called off. They did last Satuday. They are hunting in exactly the areas where foxes will have been leaving scent. They get very excited indeed when they scent fox, even I can tell the difference in the way they speak.

Hunts which ARE hunting legally have plenty of problems, believe me. Hounds will see/scent a fox and they're off! If the huntsman or whipper-in are close enough they can stop them pretty quickly - if they're not (and hunt monitors are at hand) chances are they will be prosecuted!

I can see the problem if the hounds are old enough to have been hunting fox, but surely they would now all be too old? So in theory all today's hounds should never have been encouraged/trained/allowed to follow fox scent. And I therefore don't see why there are any more difficult to stop from following fox than our drag hounds.

Unless they are learning to follow the scent of a fox somewhere ?

You really don't know much about hunting, do you!

More than you would like me to, I think

 

[Alec Swan]

I find it rather alarming, or maybe I'm naive that so many of you have such disregard for the laws of this country. Whether you like it or not, it is the law.

.......

Tell me that within your perfect world, that you have never knowingly broken the law.

Alec.

 

[JanetGeorge]

That would be why the two packs I hunt with will regularly attempt to follow a fox scent and be called off, would it?

That's a bit contradictory, isn't it? A couple of posts ago you were saying the draghounds hunted a trail with no problems! Now they're regularly attempting to follow a fox scent and have to be called off (let's hope the huntsman didn't stop for a pee!)