SACKED

sbloom said:
If you take that to its furthest extent then it means she must at all times only ever act in a way that is a good example to her pupils. Where would that stop? Could she go out and get massively drunk and make a fool of herself? Could she use foul language in public? I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of things we all might do at times which are far from a great example to set to a child but which would not impact in any way our ability to teach them. Surely?
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I'm a teacher (at an independent school) and if the school became aware that I'd been shit faced out in town on a Saturday night, especially if local to the school, then I would expect a formal written warning. If a video had been circulated on social media, then I think I'd probably be out on my ear. Not because of safeguarding but because of bringing the school into disrepute.

(in fact, I'm a bit scared to be on a public forum at all, even blandly and anonymously - my gut feeling is that it would probably be frowned upon!)
 
Birker2020 said:
there may be more to it

Any everyone is speculating that that one single incident has led to her losing her job. That's speculation. But I suppose that's ok.

Obviously the rules don't apply to me and I am not allowed to speculate but everyone else is.
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Everyone but you is trying to discuss the known facts.

Just for one moment, assume the known facts (the video, her summary dismissal) are all there is. Was it fair for her to lose her job?
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ycbm said:
There you go speculating again.

All anyone is saying on this thread is that the behaviour which was recorded does not warrant summary dismissal from her job.

The fact that you keep justifying it by saying there must be more to it says to me that you believe that it would be unfair too.
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If someone is on a warning for behaviour already then any additional issues will be weighed up and I am saying that that could be a reason. I have done no more speculating than anyone else but you don't have issue with those people.
 
ycbm said:
Everyone but you is trying to discuss the known facts.

Just for one moment, assume the known facts (the video, her summary dismissal) are all there is. Was it fair for her to lose her job?
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Yes she is in a position of trust. As I explained painstakingly throughout this thread, many, many times. Just because you don't agree with what I say doesn't make it any less valid I'm afraid.

In the same way if you are a doctor you can't carry out free tummy tucks on your friends, if you are a police man you can't take part in a violent demonstration, etc, etc. Really rubbish examples given quickly as I'm going home in a minute.
 
Birker2020 said:
Yes she is in a position of trust. As I explained painstakingly throughout this thread, many, many times. Just because you don't agree with what I say doesn't make it any less valid I'm afraid.
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That is actually the first time on the thread that you have stated that she should be sacked for that single incident in isolation.

Thank you for replying. I'm happy to disagree with you.
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MagicMelon said:
Why on earth is it acceptable for you to smack a horse because you werent careful where you put your foot?! If my horse stands on mine, Ill swear to myself about how stupid I was and push the horse back, I dont punish it because of my error. Goodness me, so much wrong with the horse world :(
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????? thanks for the laugh MM I needed it on this thread ???
 
Not_so_brave_anymore said:
I'm a teacher (at an independent school) and if the school became aware that I'd been shit faced out in town on a Saturday night, especially if local to the school, then I would expect a formal written warning. If a video had been circulated on social media, then I think I'd probably be out on my ear. Not because of safeguarding but because of bringing the school into disrepute.

(in fact, I'm a bit scared to be on a public forum at all, even blandly and anonymously - my gut feeling is that it would probably be frowned upon!)
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I think there are degrees, and what if it was a house party and not "in public"? And a written formal warning...we're discussing this on the basis of one incident, I would agree that a written warning would be appropriate as would probably the vast majority on this thread.

She lost her job!
 
ycbm said:
That is actually the first time on the thread that you have stated that she should be sacked for that single incident in isolation.


.
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You are putting words into my mouth in only the way you can.

You did not ask me 'should she be sacked?' you asked me 'was it fair for her to lose her job?'. Bit different.
How can I know if she should be sacked or not?? I do not know the circumstances in full which led to her dismissal I do not know if there were any other reasons behind the decision that was made, i.e. if she had done similar things in the past. This isn't speculation, this is fact that is taken into account during the process.

Just because I find it a struggle to articulate myself sometimes, you take full advantage of the situation, you always have. Talk about putting words into peoples mouths.
 
milliepops said:
agreed.
Last week i was lucky to not get seriously hurt in a horsebox by a horse that got itself in a pickle. i kicked it. i whacked it. i was trying to stop a bad situation from turning into one where one of us died, and my puny body is not strong enough to simply overpower a big horse with no threats of any kind. It is not nice to think back on but in the heat of the moment only brute force was going to stop that from going seriously wrong. there are often mitigating factors so to say you'd never lay a hand on a horse is nuts. if i hadn't been prepared to do that i'd have just signed its death warrant.
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What you did was appropriate in the situation you were in. What she did was not.
 
Upthecreek said:
What you did was appropriate in the situation you were in. What she did was not.
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i'm at peace with what i did, and i agree (as does everyone) that what she did was not OK. My post was in response to several on this thread saying it was *never* acceptable to hit a horse. i don't believe it makes sense to have black and white views like that.
 
palo1 said:
No-one is excusing what was done. Also we are not certain that the horse getting loose (in whatever circumstance) wasn't going to put someone or the horse in danger. You can't assume that at all. The response of the woman was wrong, no doubt. She should just have picked the horse back up and no fuss but she lost it for reasons that are not clear. I don't think she should necessarily have lost her job because of that single incident.
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I never said that she should have lost her job, what concerns me is that some people on here don't seem to think that what she did was abusive.

The RSPCA - "The footage was really upsetting"
The Pony Club - "We wholeheartedly condemn this behaviour".
Some members of the Horse and Hound Forum "this to me wasn’t animal abuse"
 
ycbm said:
I can't help wondering if you've ever watched horses interacting with each other? "Respect" among horses is obtained by threat of violence and backed up with actual violence if the threat is not enough. Horse do actually understand threat as a training tool, and all people have done is use that understanding.
.
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Of course I have, but the dynamic between a herd of horses and a human directing/controlling a horse is completely different. Force can and should be used where appropriate, but there is a big difference between force and abuse.

I find the video particularly disturbing because I used to care for a horse who came from a home where she was hit around the head, as a result she was extremely head shy and scared of people going anywhere near her face. This was extra bad in the sense that she needed ointment applied to her ears on a daily basis for scabs, which was near impossible without getting your hand bitten off. It took me months of gently working with her to get her to trust me enough, to let me do this.

I have seen just how psychologically damaged a horse can be from being hit in the face, and it isn't pretty.
 
Miss_Millie said:
I never said that she should have lost her job, what concerns me is that some people on here don't seem to think that what she did was abusive.

The RSPCA - "The footage was really upsetting"
The Pony Club - "We wholeheartedly condemn this behaviour".
Some members of the Horse and Hound Forum "this to me wasn’t animal abuse"
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Why should it concern you? If you think you can handle horses without recourse to the odd slap, go right ahead. Those of us over here in the real world will continue in the full realisation that occasionally you may have to resort to physical reprimand. The lady in the video was acting irrationally, nobody - not one person - has approved of what she was shown doing, but, along with the RSPCA (who know eff all about horse handling BTW) and the PC, many have stopped short of calling it horse abuse. I have seen real abuse: this wasn't that.
 
Cortez said:
Why should it concern you? If you think you can handle horses without recourse to the odd slap, go right ahead. Those of us over here in the real world will continue in the full realisation that occasionally you may have to resort to physical reprimand. The lady in the video was acting irrationally, nobody - not one person - has approved of what she was shown doing, but, along with the RSPCA (who know eff all about horse handling BTW) and the PC, many have stopped short of calling it horse abuse. I have seen real abuse: this wasn't that.
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Sorry, I'll try not to be concerned about how casual some people are about hitting horses around the face. Read my post above about the horse I worked with who was traumatised by being treated this way by a human and then maybe you will understand why I find this upsetting.

I didn't realise that showing compassion and empathy towards animals made me outside of 'the real world', if that's the case then I'm happy to stay over here.
 
i don't know if there's a problem of comprehension or something else, i won't speak for anyone else but personally i was disappointed to see the way she treated the horse in the video, i thought it looked like rubbish horsemanship, i wouldn't let someone do that to my horses, but equally i feel that the consequences she has faced have been extremely severe

particularly by comparison with other convicted long term horse abusers who effectively just go about their life like normal

for me that is why it's not worth continually weeping over that one horse in the video, we should be concentrating on things that affect a bigger number of horses, or where bad treatment has worse consequences. you know, where you can make a difference.

it doesn't mean you don't give a toss about her horse or that you condone the behaviour, its about a proportionate response.
 
Btw, I don't think that this is a private school, it is a primary school which is part of a multi academy trust comprising of 6 schools, so is that not a state school? Though academies came in after my time as a primary state school governor, so I am not up to date on the finer distinctions.

https://www.mowbrayeducation.org/

When the video was first aired, two possible names/identities were mooted for the woman in the video. The other one (who was not involved in this incident) did teach at a private school.
 
Miss_Millie said:
Sorry, I'll try not to be concerned about how casual some people are about hitting horses around the face. Read my post above about the horse I worked with who was traumatised by being treated this way by a human and then maybe you will understand why I find this upsetting.

I didn't realise that showing compassion and empathy towards animals made me outside of 'the real world', if that's the case then I'm happy to stay over here.
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Cortez said:
Why should it concern you? If you think you can handle horses without recourse to the odd slap, go right ahead. Those of us over here in the real world will continue in the full realisation that occasionally you may have to resort to physical reprimand. The lady in the video was acting irrationally, nobody - not one person - has approved of what she was shown doing, but, along with the RSPCA (who know eff all about horse handling BTW) and the PC, many have stopped short of calling it horse abuse. I have seen real abuse: this wasn't that.
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I think yous are talking past eachother here. Your actual disagreement is whether or not the punishment for the woman involved was proportional which is a perfectly fine thing to have a difference of opinion on! It isn't up to any of us like, it's up to her employers so forum opinions only matter to ourselves here.

I don't think Cortez that "reprimanding" a horse by punching and kicking it when it has calmly walked up to you after having been left loose is within anyone's definition of using necessary physical force during training.
 
I sometimes wonder what happened to the souls of those people who knitted next to the guillotine.

Now I see some of you have been reincarnated, and are actively posting. :D

The irony is that those who shout the loudest about others' misdemeanours, are also those who tend to behave badly on HHO, as they can't control their own tempers.

The quality of mercy is not strained, folks. Or perhaps 'There but for the grace of God go all of us'.
 
smolmaus said:
I don't think Cortez that "reprimanding" a horse by punching and kicking it when it has calmly walked up to you after having been left loose is within anyone's definition of using necessary physical force during training.
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Of course it's not, as I, and every other poster on this thread have repeatedly said. Getting all aerated about the lady being an "abuser" and deserving to get the sack is disproportionate, hysterical and fails to understand that losing your temper and whacking a horse for no reason is not on a par with some of the savage and barbaric things that are done to horses, and that mostly do not result in the perpetrators losing their jobs.
 
stangs said:
Well I avoided this thread because I knew it would upset me. And it has. But more than anything the lovely implication that "if you don't hit horses sometimes, you're not 'in the real world'" is making me feel sick.
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Poor you. I defy you to train a horse to do pretty much anything useful and be handled safely without using the occasional negative reinforcement. Look at mares and their foals, look at any herd dynamic.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Btw, I don't think that this is a private school, it is a primary school which is part of a multi academy trust comprising of 6 schools, so is that not a state school? Though academies came in after my time as a primary state school governor, so I am not up to date on the finer distinctions.

https://www.mowbrayeducation.org/

When the video was first aired, two possible names/identities were mooted for the woman in the video. The other one (who was not involved in this incident) did teach at a private school.
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Academies are state-funded (maintained) although directly from DfE rather than through the LA.
 
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