Saturday at Aintree

[stangs]

I’m so glad the Suffragettes didn’t share your views on protest.

It was the Suffragists that got us the vote - and they did that without injurying a jockey and running the risk of having killed a horse.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I’m so glad the Suffragettes didn’t share your views on protest.

*sigh*

 

[AmyMay]

It was the Suffragists that got us the vote - and they did that without injurying a jockey and running the risk of having killed a horse.

Emily Davison..…

 

[Tiddlypom]

It was the Suffragists that got us the vote - and they did that without injuring a jockey and running the risk of having killed a horse.

Erm, apart from Emily Davison, that is... Though it will never be known if she deliberately went out in front of the horse.

She died after being hit by King George V's horse Anmer at the 1913 Derby when she walked onto the track during the race.

Emily Davison - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[tristar]

The fact that there were less finishers because horse were pulled up is actually a good thing! It shows jockeys were not continuing when they were on a tired horse or if they knew they had no chance. They were using common sense! You are almost inferring you'd prefer them to finish at any cost.

There is no easy answer to any of this. It probably wasn't the best GN to watch I agree. But there needs to be a balance and racehorses would obviously not exist with no racing. The Animal Rights brigade, especially the extremists, would ban everything to do with animals. Is that what you want? You probably see more deaths at a single Pt to Pt than over the whole GN meeting. Doesn't make it right but it is fact.

I expect to get shot down for this lol

personally, i would say any competition in which the participating horses cannot finish is probably asking too much

after all it is the first over the finishing line that wins, so speed of the winner is ultimately be the deciding factor, and horses pulled up indicates they were never capable of contesting the finish, barring injury.

 

[Ditchjumper2]

personally, i would say any competition in which the participating horses cannot finish is probably asking too much

after all it is the first over the finishing line that wins, so speed of the winner is ultimately be the deciding factor, and horses pulled up indicates they were never capable of contesting the finish, barring injury.

I don't disagree. All I am saying is that pulling up is a good thing. Whether the horse should be entered in the first place is a different story.

 

[sakura]

The Animal Rights brigade, especially the extremists, would ban everything to do with animals. Is that what you want? You probably see more deaths at a single Pt to Pt than over the whole GN meeting. Doesn't make it right but it is fact.

If we can't protect horses from dying in the numbers they currently are, then yes. It would all need to stop - imo.

However, I believe we can make equestrian sports safer and kinder to horses.

 

[sakura]

I agree about the right to peacefully protest. its what happens in the UK

However, I'm very 'anti' those protesters who cause trouble and issues for others.

For example, the Just Stop Oil twits. The ones that invaded the track at Silverstone (and glued themselves to it), gluing themselves to oil refinery entry roads, onto lorries, motorways and major roads, holding up so many others trying to do their job etc. Some who have been arrested didn't even know what they were 'protesting' about!!
This isn't protesting, its causing maximum disturbance and upset to others - and making themselves look like complete *****s to 'most' people.

I both agree and disagree. I think it ultimately comes down to our own personal opinions on the subject being protested again.

 

[toppedoff]

I don't want to ignore the deaths but want to ask, do you think betting puts racing in a bad view? Whether you do bet or not? I am quite interested in people's thoughts on that

 

[fankino04]

I don't want to ignore the deaths but want to ask, do you think betting puts racing in a bad view? Whether you do bet or not? I am quite interested in people's thoughts on that

I think betting has a major influence on racing, both from the tax made on its influence on government to non horse people supporting it and not seeing the animal welfare issues in the same ways some of us do, down to things like jockeys decision making, now I may be totally wrong on the jockey front here but I do worry that when a horse has very suddenly ran out of fuel but is still in a good position ( not been slowly tailed off) and its a fancied horse, how comfortable does the jockey feel pulling that horse up when to anyone watching the horse looks to be going well. In a very short space of time the jockey has to weigh up can he get that horse safely over the next biggish fence or does he pull up when pulling up might have people question race fixing etc and him future rides?

 

[Orangehorse]

If you use horses for sport, any sport, they are going to get injured. So the only way to stop it is to stop using them.

Horses get injured racing, team chasing (2 last Sunday locally), hunting, point to pointing (I don't like to go any more), eventing, endurance, polo. Its rare in show jumping as the pace is not gallop.

The horse that died in the Grand National was a capable animal, had form over the fences and it was the first fence. He was not tailed off, or being hit with a whip, it was simply unfortunate. He could well have been fine and galloped round by himself.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I agree about the right to peacefully protest. its what happens in the UK

However, I'm very 'anti' those protesters who cause trouble and issues for others.

For example, the Just Stop Oil twits. The ones that invaded the track at Silverstone (and glued themselves to it), gluing themselves to oil refinery entry roads, onto lorries, motorways and major roads, holding up so many others trying to do their job etc. Some who have been arrested didn't even know what they were 'protesting' about!!
This isn't protesting, its causing maximum disturbance and upset to others - and making themselves look like complete *****s to 'most' people.

When we are facing societal collapse due to irreversible climate change in the form of famine, droughts, species extinction and mass migration from rising sea levels, maybe they won't look like such huge twits to you. *Maybe* you'll wish that more people listened to them before it was too late.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

When we are facing societal collapse due to irreversible climate change in the form of famine, droughts, species extinction and mass migration from rising sea levels, maybe they won't look like such huge twits to you. *Maybe* you'll wish that more people listened to them before it was too late.

I am (among many many others) astounded and appalled at their ILLEGAL antics. Protest by all means but don't stop people from getting to their work, hospital appointments and the like.

 

[sakura]

If you use horses for sport, any sport, they are going to get injured. So the only way to stop it is to stop using them.

Horses get injured racing, team chasing (2 last Sunday locally), hunting, point to pointing (I don't like to go any more), eventing, endurance, polo. Its rare in show jumping as the pace is not gallop.

The horse that died in the Grand National was a capable animal, had form over the fences and it was the first fence. He was not tailed off, or being hit with a whip, it was simply unfortunate. He could well have been fine and galloped round by himself.

The Grand National is, however, unique in its fatality record.

If it's the pressure of top level sport (whether that be human made, target driven pressure, or literal physical pressure on their bodies) that is killing horses in the numbers we are seeing across all equestrian sports, then yes, I do think we need to stop continuing as we are.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I am (among many many others) astounded and appalled at their ILLEGAL antics. Protest by all means but don't stop people from getting to their work, hospital appointments and the like.

Like I said, get back to me on that when you have no food to eat because of ecosystem collapse It might help you to gain some perspective. And perhaps read the latest IPCC report while you're at it.

 

[NinjaPony]

Sorry but if your sport involves accepting multiple fatalities per week whilst participating in that sport, it means that sport is not fit for purpose. And that applies to all equestrian sports. Horses should not be *regularly* dying whilst performing a sport. Horse deaths should be the exception, a rare and unforeseen tragedy rather than an accepted by-product.

 

[Fred66]

Exactly, and that's ultimately my point. Protestors or not, it's down to the organisers to put the welfare of horses and jockeys before anything else. Their refusal to do so - for whatever reasons - demonstrates many of the problems with racing.

Hence why I believe that protesters taking direct action should be punished severely.
They have a right to protest NOT to actively stop others going about their business.
Presumably you would be happy if Aintree had made the decision to cancel because of the actions of these protesters (they were committing or attempting to commit criminal trespass).
If so then Aintree, the owners/trainers, the bookies etc would have been well within their rights to sue them all jointly and severally for loss of revenue/costs. Additionally the courts should imprison them for the maximum sentence.
Social media, mainstream media etc are very effective at getting messages out there nowadays and generally I think it is becoming more effective than direct action. Direct action seems to get the publics back up, rather than promote their cause

 

[Rowreach]

Sorry but if your sport involves accepting multiple fatalities per week whilst participating in that sport, it means that sport is not fit for purpose. And that applies to all equestrian sports. Horses should not be *regularly* dying whilst performing a sport. Horse deaths should be the exception, a rare and unforeseen tragedy rather than an accepted by-product.

I agree. At the start of every GN you know there's a distinct likelihood that at least one horse will be dead/suffer a life ending injury within the space of a few minutes.

Interesting article in the Irish Times, broadly saying what we've been saying on this thread - that it's now people who know horses, and people within racing, who are horrified at what took place on Saturday, and that that is a real sea change for the sport.

I don't think those in the industry can afford to ignore this (or denigrate the opinions of those who are questioning the ethics of racing as a whole).

 

[sakura]

Hence why I believe that protesters taking direct action should be punished severely.
They have a right to protest NOT to actively stop others going about their business.
Presumably you would be happy if Aintree had made the decision to cancel because of the actions of these protesters (they were committing or attempting to commit criminal trespass).
If so then Aintree, the owners/trainers, the bookies etc would have been well within their rights to sue them all jointly and severally for loss of revenue/costs. Additionally the courts should imprison them for the maximum sentence.
Social media, mainstream media etc are very effective at getting messages out there nowadays and generally I think it is becoming more effective than direct action. Direct action seems to get the publics back up, rather than promote their cause

I'm not going to get into the rights and wrongs of protests with you, but to answer your question, yes, I would have been very happy to see Aintree cancel or postpone the race if they felt the horses were too worked up to safely run at that time.

It would be very refreshing to see them put the safety of horses and jockeys over loss of revenue and costs.

 

[Fred66]

I'm not going to get into the rights and wrongs of protests with you, but to answer your question, yes, I would have been very happy to see Aintree cancel or postpone the race if they felt the horses were too worked up to safely run at that time.

It would be very refreshing to see them put the safety of horses and jockeys over loss of revenue and costs.

Equally I’m not going to get into whether the race should have gone ahead or not.
The safety was compromised by the protesters, but no one can prove either way whether that fatality was directly caused by the protesters. The point is that without the direct action by those protesters then one of two things would have happened:
a) the horse would not have fallen
b) it would have fallen and the protesters could have evidenced their claim without being tainted by the claim they caused it
Their direct action has tainted their cause

 

[sakura]

Equally I’m not going to get into whether the race should have gone ahead or not.
The safety was compromised by the protesters, but no one can prove either way whether that fatality was directly caused by the protesters. The point is that without the direct action by those protesters then one of two things would have happened:
a) the horse would not have fallen
b) it would have fallen and the protesters could have evidenced their claim without being tainted by the claim they caused it
Their direct action has tainted their cause

Outside of the racing community, there's been a lot of support for the protestors. Have a look on social media or in the comment sections on news articles about it. Some may not outright agree with their behaviour, but do agree that they "have a point".

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the protestors were not present at the other two fatalities at Aintree this year, nor the previous years, were they?

 

[Gloi]

I’m so glad the Suffragettes didn’t share your views on protest.

It's also a matter of life and death for the just stop oil protestors. If you don't think the world will be inhabitable in a generation or twos time what does being arrested matter against that. Fortunately I'll be dead by then

 

[Chianti]

Woah, there's a lot to unpack there.

Everyone has the right to protest. Peacefully protesting at the gate to inform people who have paid to be there would achieve precisely nothing. Peaceful protests have, in the past, achieved very little direct action. They're useful in many situations, this was not one of them. People only tend to be against direct action protests when it's protesting something they enjoy. Criminalising protests is a slippery slope towards dictatorship.

The protestors did not cause any direct harm to the horses. Please provide evidence if I'm wrong. They are not responsible for the three fatalities that happened at Aintree this year.

I very much doubt women would have got the vote when they did if the suffragettes had stood outside shops, handing out leaflets.

 

[teapot]

Some on here really need to go and read up the difference between the suffragists and suffragettes

 

[estela]

Exactly. Many of us horse owners are questioning racing, so imagine what non-horsey people think. The racing industry (grand national in particular) is causing a bit diservice to other equestrian sport, 49 horses have been killed racing so far this year just in the UK. Thats a crazy amount, do other horse people here really find that justified and acceptable? Personally I feel it is fueled by money and welfare is not a main priority by any means. I know the owner of the GN winner is on here and I do not mean to offend, but I personally cannot support an industry with so many deaths and broken horses. The GN is an extreme race, most of the field didnt finish. 3 horses died at Aintree. I hate that other horse people label protestors (or anyone who goes against racing) bunny huggers or ignorant. The statistics speak for themselves. I used to event to a fairly decent level for an amateur, would I do that again now? No, I wouldnt. I'll stick at the lower levels as I feel courses at the upper level have got too technical and I feel the risk to my horse is too high. Eventing has its fair share of injuries and very sadly deaths - are the deaths acceptable, no they're not. But I can be certain that if 49 eventing horses had been killed this year in the UK then we'd all be massively questioning it too and rightly so.

I have no issues with protestors as long as its peaceful and they dont risk harming animals at all. Just because something is "traditional" and been done for years does not mean we should keep running it. Those protestors are doing good in that they are raising the questions and making us have these discussions which are worth it if they do contribute to even one horse not being killed. Sadly there are so many blinkered people still in the horse world, one comment on facebook really annoyed me - "but they must enjoy it as the horses kept jumping after their jockeys fell off" and "you cant force a horse to jump if it doesnt want to", anyone who actually has experience with horses knows thats rubbish. The horses in the races are trained to do their job, do some people really think they are choosing to carry on over those massive fences as they're having such a fantastic time? And Im pretty sure we all know some people whose horses dont look like they ever enjoy showjumping but their riders simply whip them enough times when they stop, so obviously they want to avoid that and jumping is the lesser of the evils for them. IMO you can force most horses to do something if you really really wanted to. Horses are trusting, often to their detriment.

Really agree with all your comments. All equine sports seem to have become so commercialised over the years. Horses are being asked more and more difficult questions. The more money involved the less they are allowed to be horses as well and kept stabled for such long periods of time and only individual turnout etc. I don't believe many top competition horses have a nice life whatever sphere they compete in. Its very sad.

 

[toppedoff]

Deleted, moving to new thread as it isn't exactly the GN sorry

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I didn’t bet on him but chose him as my winner, just looked it up it was 1987. It didn’t put me off racing in general , just the national ,

.deleted wrong reply

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I remember Dark Ivy. That was the last time I ever bet on the Grand national. I was a teenager and all of us in the family used to bet on the national. Dark Ivy was beautiful and I had my each way bet on him. Sadly he was killed and that put me off the National and racing in general really.

Dark IVY was horrid one he was given best turned out prize then fell at Beachers and you knew he was dead as his head and neck swaying side to side.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Like I said, get back to me on that when you have no food to eat because of ecosystem collapse It might help you to gain some perspective. And perhaps read the latest IPCC report while you're at it.

You're happy for the general public, companies and the like to be mildly and also extensively inconvenienced by persons breaking the law, I'm not.
Please don't push with telling me about getting perspectives.

 

[sakura]

I very much doubt women would have got the vote when they did if the suffragettes had stood outside shops, handing out leaflets.

Exactly.