Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
Very true, neither were they at cheltenham when there were fatalities.
Saturday at Aintree
- Thread starter Gamebird
- Start date
GSD Woman
Well-Known Member
I had promised myself that I would read all 16 pages before commenting but promises are made to be broke.
I can't speak for the main but I care about animals. I also know how most of the food animals in the USA are kept. As one of the vets I used to work for said, "We are very privileged to live in a country where we can worry about how the food we eat is raised."
Having worked 16 hour sifts to care for animals because I was the one person on shift that knew how to set up the ventilator for an open chest surgery, having spent 12 hours sitting on concrete flooring doing intensive care nursing of an injured dog, well, it pisses me off for anyone to claim I don't care for most animals. I've also cared for rats and mice.
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
I think we will all find the droughts, floods and famine if we go above 1.5c warming much more inconvenient than any protest Just Stop Oil has done to date. (Btw, we are currently at 1.1c and projected to reach 1.5c in seven years).
If you have any suggestions of what actions can be taken by the public that will actually be taken seriously and acted on by our government, please do enlighten me. These topics are only making headlines in the UK because of civil disruption. People are protesting because they are scared and desperate.
The real criminals are the richest 1 percent, the huge corporations who are polluting the earth beyond repair, and the governments who are turning a blind eye because they're in their pockets.
If we reach above 1.5 degrees we will see sea levels rise to the point that millions are displaced from their homes, acidification of the oceans from water heating will lead to mass species die off, this will have a knock on effect at every level of the food chain, effecting our own production of food. Especially as 70% of insects have already gone extinct - if our pollinators go, we won't be able to grow food at all. The weather extremes we are already seeing will result in mass crop failure.
And no this is not speculation, this is the trajectory we are hurtling towards if we reach 1.5c. Don't you think this sounds a bit more inconvenient than a group of people blocking a road?
olop
Well-Known Member
I have grown up with racing and I do love the sport, I grew up wanting to ride over the national fences. I did find it a hard watch but in my head the stricken horse revived the very best care he could immediately. My poor boy colicked at the yard last year, I had to wait an hour for an emergency vet to come, it was the hardest hour to watch him in so much pain. Another horse at the yard broke his knee in the field (no idea how) again his poor owner had to wait nearly an hour for a vet to arrive. The way I see it is that HS would have not known much about it and he received the very best care immediately.
My thoughts are that the fences should be bigger and the field reduced to the Topham/Foxhunter sized fields. If you watch the second circuit of the GN there are far less causalities due to them being slower/less horses around. I say the fences should be bigger to slow them down as you can’t jump huge fences flat out.
There was a very interesting interview on at the races earlier this afternoon with Matt Chapman at Windsor I’m not sure if they will put it online but it is well worth a watch if it could be found.
My thoughts are that the fences should be bigger and the field reduced to the Topham/Foxhunter sized fields. If you watch the second circuit of the GN there are far less causalities due to them being slower/less horses around. I say the fences should be bigger to slow them down as you can’t jump huge fences flat out.
There was a very interesting interview on at the races earlier this afternoon with Matt Chapman at Windsor I’m not sure if they will put it online but it is well worth a watch if it could be found.
The Fuzzy Furry
Living in 🦄 🦄 land
A group of people blocking a road? Last one locally was over 4 hours, 4 lanes of stationary traffic, blocking a motorway regularly is really helping pollution.
You can keep on quoting as much as you like, but justifying breaking the law, causing mass civil disobedience, and in doing that alienating many, still doesnt make it right.
Fred66
Well-Known Member
Additionally stationary traffic causes higher pollution than moving traffic, so the direct action protests add to the problem.
The people that missed work and lost pay, some of whom are on the breadline before losing pay, people who missed funerals, couldn’t get to schools to pick their children up potentially putting those children at risk, all of these people will have been alienated.
Direct action by the suffragettes was done in a pre-social media era when this was probably the only way of getting the message to the masses. In this day and age there are better ways of drawing attention to causes without alienating swathes of the population.
Bob notacob
Well-Known Member
I am in a way ,pleased to having been corrected by Elf and Gamebird. It means that the rules of racing are constantly being monitored ,and fine tuned . My run ins with the men in bowler hats (do they still wear them?) only date up to the (OMG ITS THAT LONG AGO, Seems like yesterday . ) late 1980 ,s .
A certain trainer (trying ever so hard against the big guys ) had 3 horses running on the same day .OK But one was in Ayr ,a second in Uttoxeter and one at Leicester . A mix of afternoon and evening racing. He needed flexible transport for the latter two horses. His alternate box supplier (on a limited budget ) took one look at it (racing guy) and said "you need Bob notacob" So I got booked for the day from Hell.
Pick up was easy , nice horses ,travelled well .....Till we hit nightmare traffic jams to Leicester .Motorways at a standstill. so i WENT XC . Got there with just a few minutes to declare .Jockey unfortunately was stuck in a stationary queue on a motorway. Quick conference in horse box. Gotta book a rider , who is here ,who does trainer like ? Picked on Garry B . Booked him . Told stewards (wearing my best dont leave home without it , suit tie and Trainer style hat. ) It took 15 minutes for the sh1t to hit the fan, Trainer (in Ayr) protesting to the stewards about the change of jockey ,and told in no uncertain terms that the horse had been declared , the jockey was a no show and the (rather dubious) assistant trainer had correctly booked a jockey, and if he still had a problem it could be discussed at our leisure in Portman Square!
Horse ran. Saddle slipped on way to start an had to dash out and re saddle. I learned why trainers wear hats . Pull it down hard and don't let the cameras see your face!!!!!!!!! Finished middle of field. Dumped stable lad with horse and set off for Uttoxeter. Evening race over fences . But the men in bowler hats were there in force so I was confined to the horse box park . TILL my horse hit the dirt . Told the guy on the gate ,I am going to my horse ,over your limp dead body if necessary. He got the message . I then had to deal with a horse in serious trauma. Ambulance was there but no vet . Got the poor horse back to the boxes and trainer arrived . Horse was a mess, couldn't travel home .Owner was beside himself , horse was a much loved family pet. Trainer ,poor sod , didnt know what to do for the best until! Someone said to the owner, isnt It a shame that this horse has to travel in pain all the way home . I just happen to know a local yard that will take him in. That sneaky someone had already talked to the stewards and picked a yard ,and they called the trainer to the office and it had already been arranged!. Dropped poor horse off into some amazingly tender care (AT SUCH SHORT NOTICE)Job done! Apart from a lad still at Leicester waiting to be picked up and being stopped and warned for speeding back . Rolled back into Epsom just as first lot was going out.
I am reassured that racing is no longer like this!
A certain trainer (trying ever so hard against the big guys ) had 3 horses running on the same day .OK But one was in Ayr ,a second in Uttoxeter and one at Leicester . A mix of afternoon and evening racing. He needed flexible transport for the latter two horses. His alternate box supplier (on a limited budget ) took one look at it (racing guy) and said "you need Bob notacob" So I got booked for the day from Hell.
Pick up was easy , nice horses ,travelled well .....Till we hit nightmare traffic jams to Leicester .Motorways at a standstill. so i WENT XC . Got there with just a few minutes to declare .Jockey unfortunately was stuck in a stationary queue on a motorway. Quick conference in horse box. Gotta book a rider , who is here ,who does trainer like ? Picked on Garry B . Booked him . Told stewards (wearing my best dont leave home without it , suit tie and Trainer style hat. ) It took 15 minutes for the sh1t to hit the fan, Trainer (in Ayr) protesting to the stewards about the change of jockey ,and told in no uncertain terms that the horse had been declared , the jockey was a no show and the (rather dubious) assistant trainer had correctly booked a jockey, and if he still had a problem it could be discussed at our leisure in Portman Square!
Horse ran. Saddle slipped on way to start an had to dash out and re saddle. I learned why trainers wear hats . Pull it down hard and don't let the cameras see your face!!!!!!!!! Finished middle of field. Dumped stable lad with horse and set off for Uttoxeter. Evening race over fences . But the men in bowler hats were there in force so I was confined to the horse box park . TILL my horse hit the dirt . Told the guy on the gate ,I am going to my horse ,over your limp dead body if necessary. He got the message . I then had to deal with a horse in serious trauma. Ambulance was there but no vet . Got the poor horse back to the boxes and trainer arrived . Horse was a mess, couldn't travel home .Owner was beside himself , horse was a much loved family pet. Trainer ,poor sod , didnt know what to do for the best until! Someone said to the owner, isnt It a shame that this horse has to travel in pain all the way home . I just happen to know a local yard that will take him in. That sneaky someone had already talked to the stewards and picked a yard ,and they called the trainer to the office and it had already been arranged!. Dropped poor horse off into some amazingly tender care (AT SUCH SHORT NOTICE)Job done! Apart from a lad still at Leicester waiting to be picked up and being stopped and warned for speeding back . Rolled back into Epsom just as first lot was going out.
I am reassured that racing is no longer like this!
SO1
Well-Known Member
If 49 people had died due to racing instead of 49 horses then I expect there would soon be an inquiry as to how to make racing safer for participants. However as these are considered just horses I expect nothing will happen. How many have to die in the name of sport before notice is taken to reduce risks.
HS6
Member
I get both sides of the argument regarding the national, and having had a few days to mull it over and hear all people's opinions I have a few thoughts on the matter.
What does strike me is that I think a lot of the British public has a huge cognitive dissonance when it comes to use animals. A work friend I shared a box of McDonald's chicken nuggets with last week and who I know uses cosmetics from brands with a history of testing on animals didn't hesitate how cruel she felt the Grand National is...
I understand people wanting to reduce the field size, reduce the size of the fences and make the requirements to get into the race tougher, but Hill Sixteen has jumped round the National fences twice (and both times looked to take to the obstacles well) and had never fallen in his 26 starts. He was a solid jumper and for such a horse to fall so dramatically at the very first fence does unfortunately seem like one of those unfortunate accidents. I haven't seen such carnage on the first lap since before they made the major changes in 2013 and rhe first few fences more resembled the Nationals of the 70s/80s than a modern day running- surely the protest must have had an effect on horses boiling over and making so many mistakes?
Dozens of horses are killed annually on roads, but I'm sure plenty of those that speed past horses and fail to give riders adequate room are up in arms every April when the Grand National comes around...
I don't think the comparison to Formula 1 is as far fetched as people are making out. Yes, humans can understand risk more than animals, but there are 17 year olds driving in Formula 2 this year (which sadly claimed a fatality as recently as 2019) and in the past there have been drivers as young as 15. One could argue that a 17 year old cannot understand risk and consequences as greatly as an adult. Does that make their participation in dangerous sports immoral?
It also seems that a narrative is being perpetuated around the treatment of racehorses on yards. From my experience the 'intensive' system that people often associate with racing yards is predominantly found in flat racing, where the use of high value, very young horses and entire colts makes anything but a 24/7 stabled system impractical. Most national hunt yards I have experienced give their horses far more freedom and variation in their lives as well as holidays in the off season.
I have seen far more intensive, inhumane 'management systems' on high level sport horse yards than I have ever seen on a racing yard... I've seen dressage stallions who have spent 15+ years of their life without a minute loose in a field and who's entire life involves sitting in an isolated stable, an hour being drilled in the arena and jumping on the dummy mare.
What does strike me is that I think a lot of the British public has a huge cognitive dissonance when it comes to use animals. A work friend I shared a box of McDonald's chicken nuggets with last week and who I know uses cosmetics from brands with a history of testing on animals didn't hesitate how cruel she felt the Grand National is...
I understand people wanting to reduce the field size, reduce the size of the fences and make the requirements to get into the race tougher, but Hill Sixteen has jumped round the National fences twice (and both times looked to take to the obstacles well) and had never fallen in his 26 starts. He was a solid jumper and for such a horse to fall so dramatically at the very first fence does unfortunately seem like one of those unfortunate accidents. I haven't seen such carnage on the first lap since before they made the major changes in 2013 and rhe first few fences more resembled the Nationals of the 70s/80s than a modern day running- surely the protest must have had an effect on horses boiling over and making so many mistakes?
Dozens of horses are killed annually on roads, but I'm sure plenty of those that speed past horses and fail to give riders adequate room are up in arms every April when the Grand National comes around...
I don't think the comparison to Formula 1 is as far fetched as people are making out. Yes, humans can understand risk more than animals, but there are 17 year olds driving in Formula 2 this year (which sadly claimed a fatality as recently as 2019) and in the past there have been drivers as young as 15. One could argue that a 17 year old cannot understand risk and consequences as greatly as an adult. Does that make their participation in dangerous sports immoral?
It also seems that a narrative is being perpetuated around the treatment of racehorses on yards. From my experience the 'intensive' system that people often associate with racing yards is predominantly found in flat racing, where the use of high value, very young horses and entire colts makes anything but a 24/7 stabled system impractical. Most national hunt yards I have experienced give their horses far more freedom and variation in their lives as well as holidays in the off season.
I have seen far more intensive, inhumane 'management systems' on high level sport horse yards than I have ever seen on a racing yard... I've seen dressage stallions who have spent 15+ years of their life without a minute loose in a field and who's entire life involves sitting in an isolated stable, an hour being drilled in the arena and jumping on the dummy mare.
HS6
Member
And I will also add that whilst I find every death in the national deeply upsetting and something that needs to be investigated- where do we draw the line on animal deaths? Humans kill animals by the billions for food, pest control, sport, hunting, medical research, clothing, pet trade...
GSD Woman
Well-Known Member
An opinionated piece to say the least.
Why did we protest at the Grand National? To finally make Britain talk about our treatment of animals | Alex Lockwood
Society is wedded to a belief it is OK to control animals for profit. We hoped this would make people stop and think, says Alex Lockwood of Animal Risingwww.theguardian.com
Wow, that was some opinion piece! Many farmers are looking for alternative ways to recycle animal waste. there is a company that dries out the yuck in the bottom of manure lagoons and sells it for compost. They do the same with chicken waste. I've used both products for building up the soil in my raised beds.
I worry about climate change. I agree that something has to be done but as long as China ignores the problem it is most likely not to happen.
I haven't watched the GN yet so I decided to derail this thread too. ;-)
Elf On A Shelf
...
It can still be a bit manic yes! I've done 2 meetings in a day. I've done plenty of meetings where I stop in at one course to run one then carry on to another for the night to run the next day. We do have far better and quicker veterinary services now though that are with the horse before you are as they follow the horses round the course with the human ambulances. I've got back to the yard plenty of times in the wee small hours which would make it pointless going home to bed as you would be up again in a few hours - like Friday, got off the yard at 1.30am by the time I got to sleep it was 2.20am-ish, alarm was set for 5am to go to Newcastle.
lannerch
Well-Known Member
Haven’t read any posts since Sunday , and have to go to work so no time now , just read this on face book , interestingly it says hill sixteen died of a heart attack just before the fence
Elf On A Shelf
...
He didn't. I have it on very good authority from an official working at the first fence that he fell and broke his neck.
I actually find her very rude and condescending. I would never call a protester stupid or uneducated. They are standing up for what they believe in. There is no point arguing with them as they are the ones who will still shout loudest. What we do need to do as an industry is prove them wrong. And to be honest we do do that quite a lot. Racing is incredibly transparent because we have to be.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
The start was rushed and frantic, it was most unpleasant to watch. The memo was clearly 'Get 'em off quick before the protestors come back'.
It was not done in the horses' best interests, it was done to "FGS just get the race underway, we're late, don't you know that the world's cameras are on us". Some horses coped better than others with the melee. The race was a horrid watch from well before the flag was raised.
And I'm someone who grew up hunting and watching the National annually. My first memory is when Harvey Smith rode round the course beforehand.
It was not done in the horses' best interests, it was done to "FGS just get the race underway, we're late, don't you know that the world's cameras are on us". Some horses coped better than others with the melee. The race was a horrid watch from well before the flag was raised.
And I'm someone who grew up hunting and watching the National annually. My first memory is when Harvey Smith rode round the course beforehand.
Peglo
Well-Known Member
Emm…… not the best post.
Racehorses, where are they now? Well in my case she was laying about in a ‘small’ box not getting particularly fat. Which at one point in the post was the worst case scenario… until she needed to prove how great a life they have after racing. I think Flo seemed pretty happy to me playing with her friends being a horse, not an athlete. But she had her racing career so I guess that would work in with her theory.
belittling people for getting professionals to bit their horse instead of chucking anything in their mouths doesn’t make for good reading.
“He had a heart attack by the looks of things” soooooo that’s your opinion like other people ‘think’ he broke his neck “by the looks of things.”
the author of this post comes across as superior and obnoxious. I don’t know much about the cosmetics industry but I certainly don’t and won’t condone animal testing just because I don’t work in the field.
Racehorses, where are they now? Well in my case she was laying about in a ‘small’ box not getting particularly fat. Which at one point in the post was the worst case scenario… until she needed to prove how great a life they have after racing. I think Flo seemed pretty happy to me playing with her friends being a horse, not an athlete. But she had her racing career so I guess that would work in with her theory.
belittling people for getting professionals to bit their horse instead of chucking anything in their mouths doesn’t make for good reading.
“He had a heart attack by the looks of things” soooooo that’s your opinion like other people ‘think’ he broke his neck “by the looks of things.”
the author of this post comes across as superior and obnoxious. I don’t know much about the cosmetics industry but I certainly don’t and won’t condone animal testing just because I don’t work in the field.
martyfisch
Well-Known Member
This lady lost all credibility for me when she moaned about people who get bit-fitters out. Why does she not want to work with equestrian professionals who improve the welfare of the horse that she purports to love?
ester
Not slacking multitasking
She seems to have even less of a clue that most people. . . she's definitely not helping any sort of image of racing. By the looks of things indeed, that's basically fact clearly.
TPO
🤠🏴
Think someone should take the shovel off her... Honestly, I don't even know where to start countering that pile of
Is she secretly an anti masquerading as someone in racing to highlight the ignorance and stupidity??
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
I don't like her post at all so very condescending. So she truly believes they'd rather be racing than safely retired doing an easier, safer job?
The fact she believes they will be "rotting" if they aren't racing... Really???
In relation to that I don't view point to point as a retirement, yet several go on to do that. Is it any easier or safer?
The fact she believes they will be "rotting" if they aren't racing... Really???
In relation to that I don't view point to point as a retirement, yet several go on to do that. Is it any easier or safer?
scats
Well-Known Member
Ah yes, all those herds of wild horses forming a starting line and racing for fun. I think you’ll find it’s called fleeing from danger.
The worrying thing is, a lot of my friends have shared that post.
The worrying thing is, a lot of my friends have shared that post.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
I think it’s all very well everyone getting hysterical about racing but no one gives a shit about horses STILL travelling from here for days with no food or water, overcrowded and ignored until they are herded off and killed in humanely …. I love horses and hated watching the GN , and won’t do again, I know 2 wrongs don’t make a right but it makes me sad that so much is being made of the GN but the general public have no idea about the much worse treatment of horses in this country and abroad , all on here who are so incensed about racing please donate to World Horse Welfare to stop this awful trade … and before anyone asks I give £10 a month to both them and the Brooke and have also sent a bit more to WHW for this campaign.. I am on a pension so not well off but I feel very strongly about horse welfare and would like to get the worst things banned first
sakura
Well-Known Member
BIB - Yes.
TPO
🤠🏴
The whatabouttery doesn't help, this is a discussion about racing and specifically the GN. There was a horse death at a Scottish BE a couple of weeks ago so it is very tempting to spiral into what "we" do to horses.
I think it's a very worthwhile discussion. It happens on here occasionally and I'm sure it'll become more frequent.
"No one cares" is a sweeping, and incorrect, statement. I do care and so do members of the public. I know lots of non horsey people who donate to equine charities and sign petitions to ban live export and try to improve equine/all animal welfare.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
I know it’s a thread about the GN and racing and I wanted to try and get more support for WHW and point out that there are far, far worse things happening to horses and we can all do our bit to help stop them... And as for my sweeping statement, there have been many of those on here tarring all racehorse trainers with the same brush..I feel very strongly that more people need to put their money to good causes
bonny
Well-Known Member
The whataboutery i think is very important, lots of things could be changed to improve the lives of a lot of horses, banning the grand national would make zero difference to horse welfare.
TPO
🤠🏴
So while there are starving and neglected horses in Egypt and horses transported on the hoof it's OK to keep sending horses to their deaths in the name of sport and entertainment?
Improving the safety, and horse welfare, in the GN would make a difference to those entered in the race. What a ridiculous statement to make.
So we've only to be concerned about horses outside of racing, only their suffering and welfare matters?
sakura
Well-Known Member
It would make a lot of difference to the horses running in the GN.
The people on this thread taking time out of their day to post are probably the exact same people who do care deeply about equine welfare in general. You have no way of knowing what else posters do or donate to other causes.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
Sorry I won’t change my mind about what is more important whatever is said on here. As I said before I hadn’t watched the GN since 1987 and don’t like the race but I don’t see the point of banning jump racing, it will still go on under the radar with much less animal care, unfortunately that’s what humans will do. IMO we need to start with the horses who are so much more worse off. Ok it’s just my opinion but I get fed up with headlines about racing being terrible and nothing about everything else that is wrong in the horse world