Saturday at Aintree

[NinjaPony]

So because we haven’t yet fixed the global plight of horses outside our own country, that means it’s fine to do nothing about horse fatalities in our own sports? No wonder nothing is done. It’s certainly one way of assuaging our guilty consciences.

 

[bonny]

So while there are starving and neglected horses in Egypt and horses transported on the hoof it's OK to keep sending horses to their deaths in the name of sport and entertainment?



Improving the safety, and horse welfare, in the GN would make a difference to those entered in the race. What a ridiculous statement to make.

So we've only to be concerned about horses outside of racing, only their suffering and welfare matters?

So this weekend it’s the Scottish National, last week it was the Irish version, would you like to see those races banned too or is it just the high profile one?

 

[sakura]

I don’t see the point of banning jump racing, it will still go on under the radar with much less animal care, unfortunately that’s what humans will do.

People still commit crimes under the radar, it's what humans do. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strengthen laws and monitor those activities. It means the opposite.

I'm really sorry but not doing anything because "people will still do it" is a lazy argument.

 

[splashgirl45]

So because we haven’t yet fixed the global plight of horses outside our own country, that means it’s fine to do nothing about horse fatalities in our own sports? No wonder nothing is done. It’s certainly one way of assuaging our guilty consciences.

No, we need to get our own country sorted first as there is a hell of a lot of cruelty going on which gets next to no publicity , and I don’t have a guilty conscience about my own behaviour or input …. It just seems odd that the other things are not talked about because they are not high profile

 

[reynold]

First they came for hunting and many cheered
Then they came for racing and again many cheered
Then they came for eventing and quite a few cheered
Then dressage and again some cheered
Then showjumping and some cheered
Then they came for normal riding/hacking horses and then they cried because riding was now illegal

Then they came for the horses which now had no purpose and they were slaughtered or shipped abroad to be turned into salami or sent to other countries to be working horses as the rescue centres here were full

Be in no doubt that the protesters at the GN have the ultimate objective to ban any horse being ridden for any purpose. Be careful what you wish for.....

Kevin Blake had a debate on (I think) TalkTV yesterday with one of the GN protestors and pressed them to state what they'd do with all the redundant horses when racing was banned. After much pressing the protestor stated they could be put in sanctuaries......

The GN isn't perfect but it is vetted by both RSPCA and WHW and afaik all horse fatalities on all racecourses are investigated.

Those non-racing horse owners that want to see racing banned would also do well to remember that many of the advanced veterinary procedures available to our 'normal' horses now came from research funded by racing (e.g. the Animal Health Trust and top Newmarket vets).

Personally I'd like to see the BHS create a reporting system for horse deaths in fields in the similar way they have for road accidents. This would also give some accurate feedback on deaths by Chinese lanterns and fireworks as well. I believe that the statistics would show clearly that far more horses die in fields in a year than die on racecourses. This would be a simple way to counter one of the core arguments of the 'antis'.

Racing isn't perfect but welfare standards in this country are among the highest in the world (Lasix in the USA anyone?). When I was working in racing in the 80s I hated when the owner sold off his failed racehorses to continue their existence racing in places like Malaysia and India where their fate would ultimately be as abused cart horses. I'd rather see them dead here.

As per one of the posts above I also support WHW and am a rehomer for one of their ponies.

 

[Parrotperson]

There are approximately 800,000 horses and ponies in private ownership in the uk.

Gonna need a lot of sanctuaries.

 

[NinjaPony]

And now we have the ‘slippery slope’ argument.

Maybe if horses stopped breaking their necks on tv in the name of entertainment and profit, there would be fewer calls to ban horse sports as a whole?

 

[sakura]

Why, whenever we talk about improving racing/eventing/any equestrian sport, does the straw man argument of "well then all horses will die and they'll cease to exist and we'll never be able to ride them again!!!!" come up?

It's exhausting and not helpful. If you can't run a sport without horses breaking their necks then you shouldn't be running that sport the way you are.

 

[reynold]

The deaths and situation ARE going to be investigated - but by people who know what they are talking about in regard to horse welfare and racing - including, as I said, RSPCA and WHW. Any needed improvements will then be made by the BHA.

As I said, ALL deaths and accidents on British racecourses are investigated.

The proper people to investigate are those mentioned above and not the members of a random protest group who undertake illegal activities (often with little punishment)

These protestors are now talking about targeting the Derby in June. Epsom is almost impossible to fence off, it is open downland with free access to the public. I can't imagine anything worse for horse welfare than having 3 yr old entire colts stuck hanging around on a hot day.

 

[humblepie]

When I saw the protest at the snooker and wondered why then thought the only reason could be that it is sponsored by Cazoo so cars - rushed off to double check they aren’t sponsoring the Derby again this. Thought they weren’t and they aren’t.

 

[sakura]

I can't imagine anything worse for horse welfare than having 3 yr old entire colts stuck hanging around on a hot day.

The other thing bad for them is racing at 3 years old on a hot day.

It's not enough to investigate the deaths. The GN has always been a uniquely brutal race. The previous improvements aren't enough - there needs to be more.

 

[reynold]

Kevin Blake | At The Races

"The Grand National is the front line of a much bigger battle" - Kevin Blake urges racing fans to stand up for their sport.

www.attheraces.com

Kevin Blake today trying to accommodate both sides of the coin in regard to GN protests. Worth a read.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

So this weekend it’s the Scottish National, last week it was the Irish version, would you like to see those races banned too or is it just the high profile one?

The Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Borders, Sussex, Midlands, Munster, Northumberland, Highland etc Nationals are all run over regulation chase fences and range from 3.5-4.5 miles. The Aintree Grand National is the only one run over non-standard fences.

I personally hate the Welsh National. Its always run on a bog and it bottoms out horses. It takes them a year to come back to themselves usually.

 

[Gallop_Away]

First they came for hunting and many cheered
Then they came for racing and again many cheered
Then they came for eventing and quite a few cheered
Then dressage and again some cheered
Then showjumping and some cheered
Then they came for normal riding/hacking horses and then they cried because riding was now illegal

Then they came for the horses which now had no purpose and they were slaughtered or shipped abroad to be turned into salami or sent to other countries to be working horses as the rescue centres here were full

Be in no doubt that the protesters at the GN have the ultimate objective to ban any horse being ridden for any purpose. Be careful what you wish for.....

Kevin Blake had a debate on (I think) TalkTV yesterday with one of the GN protestors and pressed them to state what they'd do with all the redundant horses when racing was banned. After much pressing the protestor stated they could be put in sanctuaries......

The GN isn't perfect but it is vetted by both RSPCA and WHW and afaik all horse fatalities on all racecourses are investigated.

Those non-racing horse owners that want to see racing banned would also do well to remember that many of the advanced veterinary procedures available to our 'normal' horses now came from research funded by racing (e.g. the Animal Health Trust and top Newmarket vets).

Personally I'd like to see the BHS create a reporting system for horse deaths in fields in the similar way they have for road accidents. This would also give some accurate feedback on deaths by Chinese lanterns and fireworks as well. I believe that the statistics would show clearly that far more horses die in fields in a year than die on racecourses. This would be a simple way to counter one of the core arguments of the 'antis'.

Racing isn't perfect but welfare standards in this country are among the highest in the world (Lasix in the USA anyone?). When I was working in racing in the 80s I hated when the owner sold off his failed racehorses to continue their existence racing in places like Malaysia and India where their fate would ultimately be as abused cart horses. I'd rather see them dead here.

As per one of the posts above I also support WHW and am a rehomer for one of their ponies.

I have debated whether to get involved with this discussion, but I agree with this comment. I absolutely support the right to protest. What I do not support are those who feel they have a right to force their views on others via intimidation and violence.

The GN is not perfect. There is much that could be changed. I do think reducing the number of runners and shortening the course would be a good start.

Ultimately whilst we have a duty to put the welfare of our horses at the top of the list of properties across all equestrian sports, sadly there will always be risks unfortunately. Whilst we have a duty to limit the risks as much as possible, they can never be completely eliminated. Every time we ride our horses, we put them at risk, whether it's showjumping, xc, hunting, even just hacking them down a road.

Whilst some of you may feel the GN should be banned, and even NH racing in general, would you feel the same if we were discussing eventing? Showjumping? Dressage? Riding in general? The reality is, whilst you may not care about racing, once one falls to extremists, they will turn their attention elsewhere. It happened with hunting, now racing, where next?

Whilst I think there is much within the racing industry that needs improvement, it is something I have a lot of love for, a huge respect for the commitment of those who work in the industry, and agree we as horse owners owe a great deal of thanks to in terms of medical advances that have been made possible because of racing.

 

[Parrotperson]

And now we have the ‘slippery slope’ argument.

Maybe if horses stopped breaking their necks on tv in the name of entertainment and profit, there would be fewer calls to ban horse sports as a whole?

But there wouldn’t. It would progress from horse sports to just hacking out to keeping them in a field.

That’s how this works. There’s only black and white no greys. No conversation to be had. It’s exactly like the trans arguments at the moment. You either for them or against.

We’ve lost the ability to talk about things sensibly. And it all started in 2016…….

 

[Parrotperson]

The Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Borders, Sussex, Midlands, Munster, Northumberland, Highland etc Nationals are all run over regulation chase fences and range from 3.5-4.5 miles. The Aintree Grand National is the only one run over non-standard fences.

I personally hate the Welsh National. Its always run on a bog and it bottoms out horses. It takes them a year to come back to themselves usually.

The fences are made of plastic hurdles covered in fir branches. The ‘stiff’ part of the fences are considerably smaller than regulation fences. Horses brush through the fir bit.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Anyone who thinks the extremists will simply dissappear if the GN or indeed jump racing in general was banned is extremely naive to say the least.

 

[sakura]

But the activists aren't going anywhere. No matter your opinion of them.

So do you continue to do nothing and give them further proof for their cause, or do you work to improve the safety?

There's two options.

 

[Burnerbee]

First they came for hunting and many cheered
Then they came for racing and again many cheered
Then they came for eventing and quite a few cheered
Then dressage and again some cheered
Then showjumping and some cheered
Then they came for normal riding/hacking horses and then they cried because riding was now illegal

Then they came for the horses which now had no purpose and they were slaughtered or shipped abroad to be turned into salami or sent to other countries to be working horses as the rescue centres here were full

Be in no doubt that the protesters at the GN have the ultimate objective to ban any horse being ridden for any purpose. Be careful what you wish for.....

Kevin Blake had a debate on (I think) TalkTV yesterday with one of the GN protestors and pressed them to state what they'd do with all the redundant horses when racing was banned. After much pressing the protestor stated they could be put in sanctuaries......

The GN isn't perfect but it is vetted by both RSPCA and WHW and afaik all horse fatalities on all racecourses are investigated.

Those non-racing horse owners that want to see racing banned would also do well to remember that many of the advanced veterinary procedures available to our 'normal' horses now came from research funded by racing (e.g. the Animal Health Trust and top Newmarket vets).

Personally I'd like to see the BHS create a reporting system for horse deaths in fields in the similar way they have for road accidents. This would also give some accurate feedback on deaths by Chinese lanterns and fireworks as well. I believe that the statistics would show clearly that far more horses die in fields in a year than die on racecourses. This would be a simple way to counter one of the core arguments of the 'antis'.

Racing isn't perfect but welfare standards in this country are among the highest in the world (Lasix in the USA anyone?). When I was working in racing in the 80s I hated when the owner sold off his failed racehorses to continue their existence racing in places like Malaysia and India where their fate would ultimately be as abused cart horses. I'd rather see them dead here.

As per one of the posts above I also support WHW and am a rehomer for one of their ponies.

Are the admins on here awake? You’ve used a poem that details how mankind allowed the Holocaust to moan that dressage might one day be threatened? Please use other methods. Here’s the original on the Holocaust Memorial Day website https://www.hmd.org.uk/resource/first-they-came-by-pastor-martin-niemoller/

 

[Gallop_Away]

But the activists aren't going anywhere. No matter your opinion of them.

So do you continue to do nothing and give them further proof for their cause, or do you work to improve the safety?

There's two options.

Please refer to my earlier post. I agree improvements need to be made and we should constantly be reviewing and looking at ways to ensure the welfare of horses across ALL equestrian sports. However I don't believe they were holding signs saying "improve the grand national"...

 

[NinjaPony]

So because activists are taking a more extreme position, that means everyone else should just put up with horses dying on racetracks every week because we are afraid of giving into them?

I personally would like horses to stop being killed week in and week out on racecourses. That is my position, and some of that probably overlaps with animal rights activists. It’s not a carte blanche endorsement, it’s my own belief as a horse lover and someone who would prefer not to see horse sports banned.

Why are we still putting up with regular horse fatalities on racecourses in 2023?

 

[Gallop_Away]

So because activists are taking a more extreme position, that means everyone else should just put up with horses dying on racetracks every week because we are afraid of giving into them?

I personally would like horses to stop being killed week in and week out on racecourses. That is my position, and some of that probably overlaps with animal rights activists. It’s not a carte blanche endorsement, it’s my own belief as a horse lover and someone who would prefer not to see horse sports banned.

Why are we still putting up with regular horse fatalities on racecourses in 2023?

Not at all! As I said we should be looking at ways to constantly improve safety for horses, not just in racing, but across all equestrian sports. The welfare of our horses should be the utmost priority.
However we also need to accept that regardless of how hard we try to eliminate the risk, we can never truly eliminate it completely. There will always be risks unfortunately, and not just with racing but across all equestrian sports. If we ban racing because it is simply too high risk, then should we therefore ban other equestrian sports that carry a high risk also? Where do you draw a line?

 

[sakura]

However we also need to accept that regardless of how hard we try to eliminate the risk, we can never truly eliminate it completely. There will always be risks unfortunately, and not just with racing but across all equestrian sports. If we ban racing because it is simply too high risk, then should we therefore ban other equestrian sports that carry a high risk also? Where do you draw a line?

And there in lies the problem. To some, the risk will always be justified and to others, it never will be.

I've said it before a lot on eventing threads, but it will be public opinion that ultimately decides the future of equestrian sports. That's why it's so important for the governing bodies to listen to what the protestors are saying.

 

[palo1]

Are the admins on here awake? You’ve used a poem that details how mankind allowed the Holocaust to moan that dressage might one day be threatened? Please use other methods. Here’s the original on the Holocaust Memorial Day website https://www.hmd.org.uk/resource/first-they-came-by-pastor-martin-niemoller/

This poem has been used in so many ways by so many communities that whilst it may feel a bit 'blunt' it really isn't appropriation I don't think. I think it is a good thing that this poem is used commonly as well - far better than the original rarely seeing the light of day in any form but that is a different topic.

 

[ester]

Also the forum is not actively moderated so bit unfair on admin … if you don’t like something you need to report it and they will have a look.

 

[Gallop_Away]

And there in lies the problem. To some, the risk will always be justified and to others, it never will be.

I've said it before a lot on eventing threads, but it will be public opinion that ultimately decides the future of equestrian sports. That's why it's so important for the governing bodies to listen to what the protestors are saying.

The fact is that many horses would not be alive today if it wasn't for equestrian sports. It is a sad truth that there will always be risks each and every time we ride our horses. Whether it's racing, showjumping or even hacking down the road.

 

[TPO]

So this weekend it’s the Scottish National, last week it was the Irish version, would you like to see those races banned too or is it just the high profile one?

All of them, I'd happily see all racing banned. I don't believe that there is a single element of horse racing that is in the best interests of any individual horse. I also believe that it is immoral to purposely risk the life of any horse in the name of sport / entertainment.

That encompasses a lot more than just horse racing but this is a thread about horse racing. Anyone wanting discuss animal welfare world wide, in other sports, in the leisure industry etc should probably start a thread either about their specific topic or to encompass all aspects of welfare so as not to dilute this topic further.

 

[sakura]

Some risks are greater than others, and I think it sits particularly badly with the public when the reason such a great risk is taken is for monetary gain.

 

[Gallop_Away]

All of them, I'd happily see all racing banned. I don't believe that there is a single element of horse racing that is in the best interests of any individual horse. I also believe that it is immoral to purposely risk the life of any horse in the name of sport / entertainment.

That encompasses a lot more than just horse racing but this is a thread about horse racing. Anyone wanting discuss animal welfare world wide, in other sports, in the leisure industry etc should probably start a thread either about their specific topic or to encompass all aspects of welfare so as not to dilute this topic further.

Or we can keep discussing it, as it forms part of a wider discussion, and threads on here tend to evolve and cover wider topics, and you can just ignore any comments you don't feel are relevant.

 

[TPO]

Or we can keep discussing it, as it forms part of a wider discussion, and threads on here tend to evolve and cover wider topics, and you can just ignore any comments you don't feel are relevant.

And the whole point of the topic gets diluted and lost