Saturday at Aintree

[Gallop_Away]

Or expanded, depending on your POV

 

[HS6]

The thing is, when it comes to use of horses in any form (right from the Palio race in Italy to a companion pony sat in the field) there is an inherent risk. Different people have different opinions of where on the spectrum they view their acceptable level of risk to be, so think the narrative needs to shift away from slinging insults like 'you are cruel for supporting this' to 'I find this level of risk unacceptable'.

Ponies are left on spring grass and suffer with laminitis, showjumpers end up with knackered joints, dressage horses are bred for 'springy' pasterns which leaves them with collapsed suspensories and DSLD, happy hackers are killed in road accidents, broodmares die in foaling, event horses have rotational falls, retired horses get fatally kicked in the field, breeding stallions are injured on the dummy, flat racehorses break down and have to euthanized, national hunt horses have fatal falls.

These are all risks associated with having domesticated horses; some people find ALL of these risks unacceptable and do not think horses should be used by humans, some people consider all of these risks inevitable. Most people sit somewhere on the spectrum of what they find acceptable use, but I don't think calling someone abusive or cruel achieves very much when everyone participating in this forum (I assume) uses horses in some form without the animal understanding the risks associated.

 

[tristar]

And now we have the ‘slippery slope’ argument.

Maybe if horses stopped breaking their necks on tv in the name of entertainment and profit, there would be fewer calls to ban horse sports as a whole?

i feel it is possible to show any objectors to riding horses, just how being ridden, and for humans riding, is a wonderful interaction that both benefit from, the breeding nd training of horses who work into their 20`s and give such joy, who positively shine with pride, who come galloping when called for their daily work, who are friends, in fact almost worshipped and radiate that special something that can take a person to a place only a horse can, lift depression, bring a smile to a face, can never be taken away

and anyone who trains horses humanely can show it is not necessary to kill them in the name of sport.

 

[humblepie]

In random momemts I ask my ex racehorse if he preferred being a racehorse when all he had to do was go round with his mates in a group exercise and occasionally be asked to go quite fast, or does he prefer being a dressage horse with someone asking him to go sideways, collect, rein back, stand perfectly straight and that person weighing more than the 9 stone or whatever he used to carry when racing. He only summer flat raced so had all the winter off and had turn out. Slightly tongue in cheek but I do ask him it sometimes.

 

[bonny]

In random momemts I ask my ex racehorse if he preferred being a racehorse when all he had to do was go round with his mates in a group exercise and occasionally be asked to go quite fast, or does he prefer being a dressage horse with someone asking him to go sideways, collect, rein back, stand perfectly straight and that person weighing more than the 9 stone or whatever he used to carry when racing. He only summer flat raced so had all the winter off and had turn out. Slightly tongue in cheek but I do ask him it sometimes.

You need to let us know what he says in answer to your question ?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

In random momemts I ask my ex racehorse if he preferred being a racehorse when all he had to do was go round with his mates in a group exercise and occasionally be asked to go quite fast, or does he prefer being a dressage horse with someone asking him to go sideways, collect, rein back, stand perfectly straight and that person weighing more than the 9 stone or whatever he used to carry when racing. He only summer flat raced so had all the winter off and had turn out. Slightly tongue in cheek but I do ask him it sometimes.

I used to threaten Gray with sending him back to race again when he was being a toad. He liked his food, ponies and glamorous life style of a show horse too much

 

[humblepie]

You need to let us know what he says in answer to your question ?

He probably just says stop rabbiting on. I do tend to talk to him a lot.

 

[Sandstone1]

This poem has been used in so many ways by so many communities that whilst it may feel a bit 'blunt' it really isn't appropriation I don't think. I think it is a good thing that this poem is used commonly as well - far better than the original rarely seeing the light of day in any form but that is a different topic.

Its in pretty poor taste but I do not know why that should surprise me..

 

[Clodagh]

And the whole point of the topic gets diluted and lost

I do think it does, the hunting thread is still about hunting although it’s many, many pages long. It veers and meanders but ultimately returns.

And I’ll be off topic and agree with humblepie (or her horse!) better to gallop and jump than be hauled in on draw reins and trot in circles all day.

I am not a fan of any long distance staying chases. I own tiny shares in several racehorses and would hate any of them to be entered for those races.

 

[littleshetland]

i feel it is possible to show any objectors to riding horses, just how being ridden, and for humans riding, is a wonderful interaction that both benefit from, the breeding nd training of horses who work into their 20`s and give such joy, who positively shine with pride, who come galloping when called for their daily work, who are friends, in fact almost worshipped and radiate that special something that can take a person to a place only a horse can, lift depression, bring a smile to a face, can never be taken away

and anyone who trains horses humanely can show it is not necessary to kill them in the name of sport.

^^^ this 100%.

 

[stangs]

Haven’t read any posts since Sunday , and have to go to work so no time now , just read this on face book , interestingly it says hill sixteen died of a heart attack just before the fence

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10167568954870201&id=781340200

Are you going to take them back to your gardens and shut them in a cube for the rest of their lives?

Agree with her on this. It's not fair to keep a horse in a 'cube' for the majority of its life. Luckily for racehorses, they get all that lovely spacious turnout in Newmarket instead. You would never see a racehorse in a 12x12 cube.

Horses don’t run in the grand national and think about the do good antis and approach the first fence thinking ‘oh I wish the antis had done a better job I hate this’ because they actually bloody love it. They want to take each other on and if they don’t they won’t.

And using the stick repeatedly on a tiring horse is for what, good optics? Cheering their enthusiasm on?

Racehorses are born on this planet to do just that. Stop trying to cotton wool the fact that they want to have this life out in a field doing pony club or rotting eating grass and getting fat.

Poster appears to think that racehorses... just aren't horses? Does she really think a racehorse looks at a field of grass, forgets its 50 million years of evolution as a herbivore and prey animal, and thinks "who needs that green stuff when I can run towards a fence that may or may not result in me breaking my neck?" Even Secretariat - who, from what I've read, did genuinely enjoy his job - seemed quite happy 'rotting eating grass and getting fat'.

 

[littleshetland]

In my 40 odd years of owning / training horses, it's become fairly obvious to me that horses, do in fact, actually like to work (providing they are in knowledgable and compassionate hands..) but not to the point of total exhaustion. Why is it humans have to push, push, push them so bloody hard all the time?

 

[Ditchjumper2]

The thing is, when it comes to use of horses in any form (right from the Palio race in Italy to a companion pony sat in the field) there is an inherent risk. Different people have different opinions of where on the spectrum they view their acceptable level of risk to be, so think the narrative needs to shift away from slinging insults like 'you are cruel for supporting this' to 'I find this level of risk unacceptable'.

Ponies are left on spring grass and suffer with laminitis, showjumpers end up with knackered joints, dressage horses are bred for 'springy' pasterns which leaves them with collapsed suspensories and DSLD, happy hackers are killed in road accidents, broodmares die in foaling, event horses have rotational falls, retired horses get fatally kicked in the field, breeding stallions are injured on the dummy, flat racehorses break down and have to euthanized, national hunt horses have fatal falls.

These are all risks associated with having domesticated horses; some people find ALL of these risks unacceptable and do not think horses should be used by humans, some people consider all of these risks inevitable. Most people sit somewhere on the spectrum of what they find acceptable use, but I don't think calling someone abusive or cruel achieves very much when everyone participating in this forum (I assume) uses horses in some form without the animal understanding the risks associated.

The last part...the animal understanding the risk. They don't and they can't as they are animals. But they do put their trust in us. As you say you will never remove risk all we can do is minimise it, which is what we all do. There is always risk.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Agree with her on this. It's not fair to keep a horse in a 'cube' for the majority of its life. Luckily for racehorses, they get all that lovely spacious turnout in Newmarket instead. You would never see a racehorse in a 12x12 cube.


And using the stick is for what, good optics?


Poster appears to think that racehorses... just aren't horses? Does she really think a racehorse looks at a field of grass, forgets its 50 million years of evolution as a herbivore and prey animal, and thinks "who needs that green stuff when I can run towards a fence that may or may not result in me breaking my neck?" Even Secretariat - who, from what I've read, did genuinely enjoy his job - seemed quite happy 'rotting eating grass and getting fat'.

Her post had been received with VERY mixed opinions in the racing world. We do not all share her view. Bits of it maybe but not the majority of it. I would put her in the camp of extremist protesters - she will shout you down and refuse to listen to your side of the argument. Too blinkered.

 

[tristar]

surely it comes back what is point of horses.

gordon elliot is heartbroken after the death of his beloved 6 yr old at aintree, some horses get inside the hardest of skins

and the delay before the GN start allowed the horses to loosen up more before the race, perhaps there would have been more injuries, deaths who knows, and hill sixteen`s death may or may not have anything to do with the delay, individual temperament is a huge factor in how a horse copes with stress

 

[tristar]

In my 40 odd years of owning / training horses, it's become fairly obvious to me that horses, do in fact, actually like to work (providing they are in knowledgable and compassionate hands..) but not to the point of total exhaustion. Why is it humans have to push, push, push them so bloody hard all the time?

well in this case money is big factor, racecourse revenue, owners and trainers wish to win, prize money, betting, it like the actual living animal is a pawn in a huge game

 

[palo1]

Its in pretty poor taste but I do not know why that should surprise me..

I think these sorts of things slightly lose their 'origin story' as they become part of popular culture. People don't always realise or consider the original context but the sentiments about unity do have integrity in my opinion. I hope the poster has not caused offence by using this as I think they didn't intend that.

 

[stangs]

Her post had been received with VERY mixed opinions in the racing world. We do not all share her view. Bits of it maybe but not the majority of it. I would put her in the camp of extremist protesters - she will shout you down and refuse to listen to your side of the argument. Too blinkered.

It's a shame really. I can understand the emotion behind it, but that kind of aggressive (and in some ways ignorant) post won't help racing's case.

Though I do like how she says that we should all go ride a racehorse as part of educating ourselves. I'm sure if I say I just want to learn, my local trainer will happily let me on his horses

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

It's a shame really. I can understand the emotion behind it, but that kind of aggressive (and in some ways ignorant) post won't help racing's case.

Though I do like how she says that we should all go ride a racehorse as part of educating ourselves. I'm sure if I say I just want to learn, my local trainer will happily let me on his horses

With the staff shortages in racing at the moment come on down and hop up on a horse! Even one horse on one lot makes a huge difference to the yards day! You may think your being tongue in cheek but I'm being deadly serious if you can stay on top you'll be grand! The horses know their gallops, they know where to start and stop, you'll be fine

 

[Snowfilly]

With the staff shortages in racing at the moment come on down and hop up on a horse! Even one horse on one lot makes a huge difference to the yards day! You may think your being tongue in cheek but I'm being deadly serious if you can stay on top you'll be grand! The horses know their gallops, they know where to start and stop, you'll be fine

Don’t tempt me Elf! Riding a racehorse was the one thing I always fancied trying and never got to do.

 

[stangs]

With the staff shortages in racing at the moment come on down and hop up on a horse! Even one horse on one lot makes a huge difference to the yards day! You may think your being tongue in cheek but I'm being deadly serious if you can stay on top you'll be grand! The horses know their gallops, they know where to start and stop, you'll be fine

I’m not fit enough! Half way up the gallops, I’d be sat back down in the saddle asking for a time-out.

I did seriously consider getting a part-time gig at a racing yard, just for the sake of doing something new, but my closest trainers (Epsom) never seem to put up ads. I presume that being near London means they're spoilt for choice.

 

[littleshetland]

well in this case money is big factor, racecourse revenue, owners and trainers wish to win, prize money, betting, it like the actual living animal is a pawn in a huge game

It's always about the money. Sometimes I think the only thing we should wish for from these animals is their forgiveness....

 

[Chianti]

First they came for hunting and many cheered
Then they came for racing and again many cheered
Then they came for eventing and quite a few cheered
Then dressage and again some cheered
Then showjumping and some cheered
Then they came for normal riding/hacking horses and then they cried because riding was now illegal

Then they came for the horses which now had no purpose and they were slaughtered or shipped abroad to be turned into salami or sent to other countries to be working horses as the rescue centres here were full

Be in no doubt that the protesters at the GN have the ultimate objective to ban any horse being ridden for any purpose. Be careful what you wish for.....

Kevin Blake had a debate on (I think) TalkTV yesterday with one of the GN protestors and pressed them to state what they'd do with all the redundant horses when racing was banned. After much pressing the protestor stated they could be put in sanctuaries......

The GN isn't perfect but it is vetted by both RSPCA and WHW and afaik all horse fatalities on all racecourses are investigated.

Those non-racing horse owners that want to see racing banned would also do well to remember that many of the advanced veterinary procedures available to our 'normal' horses now came from research funded by racing (e.g. the Animal Health Trust and top Newmarket vets).

Personally I'd like to see the BHS create a reporting system for horse deaths in fields in the similar way they have for road accidents. This would also give some accurate feedback on deaths by Chinese lanterns and fireworks as well. I believe that the statistics would show clearly that far more horses die in fields in a year than die on racecourses. This would be a simple way to counter one of the core arguments of the 'antis'.

Racing isn't perfect but welfare standards in this country are among the highest in the world (Lasix in the USA anyone?). When I was working in racing in the 80s I hated when the owner sold off his failed racehorses to continue their existence racing in places like Malaysia and India where their fate would ultimately be as abused cart horses. I'd rather see them dead here.

As per one of the posts above I also support WHW and am a rehomer for one of their ponies.

We put horses in fields because that's where they can live as full and natural life as we can provide in this country. Many now put them onto a track system because they feel that is an even closer match to the life of a wild horse. Our understanding of how to keep horses as happy and healthy as possible has developed considerably over the last few years and we know they need to be able to move about, to have access to forage and to be with their mates. We also know that taking a horse out of a stable and putting it in a field carries some risk. They may charge about - which how my last one pullled a tendon. They may fight and injure each other. They may eat something poisonous. We know this and we worry about it - but- we still do it. We do it because we know the alternative - stuck in a box with no turn out - is no life for a horse. So we think they have to go into some form of field. What they don't have to do - to have the best life is go racing and be made to jump over hedges.

 

[SadKen]

I think these sorts of things slightly lose their 'origin story' as they become part of popular culture. People don't always realise or consider the original context but the sentiments about unity do have integrity in my opinion. I hope the poster has not caused offence by using this as I think they didn't intend that.

Just as an aside and not aimed at the above poster, offence can’t be given, only taken. If someone is offended as they appeared to be upthread, telling teacher that their feelings are hurt and cloaking it as piety when it’s actually an insidious attempt at social control and dictatorship, so what? It’s their problem. See Stephen Fry for details.

It would be excellent if we stopped trying to police speech (beyond what is in law and even then, the ‘hate speech’ aspect is entirely a matter of opinion). It’s pathetic seeing attempts to shut something PERFECTLY
LEGAL down because someone is OFfenDeD. Grow up.

 

[fetlock]

With the staff shortages in racing at the moment come on down and hop up on a horse! Even one horse on one lot makes a huge difference to the yards day! You may think your being tongue in cheek but I'm being deadly serious if you can stay on top you'll be grand! The horses know their gallops, they know where to start and stop, you'll be fine

Friend’s sister in second year of MRCVS cannot find any trainer yet to take her on for a two week “mucking out” placement in late July. Unfortunately she doesn’t ride but thought they’d be keen to have free dogsbodies.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Friend’s sister in second year of MRCVS cannot find any trainer yet to take her on for a two week “mucking out” placement in late July. Unfortunately she doesn’t ride but thought they’d be keen to have free dogsbodies.

Some ate funny about work experience, especially veterinary, as they just assume they are all clueless around horses and are more hassle than they are worth. They rarely even read your experience. We love taking in vet students or kids wanting to go down that route.

 

[SO1]

I think things about racehorse welfare that a lot of people dislike are no turnout and being backed so young before they are really mature and mass production breeding with a really high turnover of failed racehorses at a very young age needing to be rehomed or PTS. It is not just about deaths and injury.

The turnout issue is probably not unique to race horses as I expect other expensive competition horse get no turnout for the same reasons because it is felt that turnout is dangerous due to risk of getting injured. A lot of horses will get field injuries or laminitis but we will never ban turnout as most people despite the risks associated with herd turnout believe that is in the best interests of the horse especially for their mental health even though there are risks associated with it.

I think competition is an issue with regard to equine welfare and not just racehorses. For professionals whose livelihood is based on results there is pressure to get the results for owners who may not always be around to see how their horses are being trained and prepared for competition. Our obsession with competition means the preparation is starting earlier with more young horse competitions. Even at amateur levels it does not bring out the best of people. If competition was banned how many people would still have horses or replace horses that had passed away or were retired. Would we all be out there doing sponsored rides, pole clincs, drill rides etc or would people just loose interest. Even at the Riding School we have competitions so I think it is quite a big part of riding culture.

 

[fetlock]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1648411422248906752

 

[EMSPony]

I personally hate the Welsh National. Its always run on a bog and it bottoms out horses. It takes them a year to come back to themselves usually.

With absolutely no argument whatsoever with EOAS this is the stand out comment for me from this whole thread.

Wow. Just wow. I don't believe we have any right to put horses into this situation, that the effects of a single race, even if they survive it, can have repercussions up to a year later for that horse. How on earth can a sporting body which claims horse welfare is at the heart of all they do allow this kind of event to take place? What fools they must take us for as they sit in their own entitled bubble, mocking and belittling people who express concern for the horses that are being physically and mentally ruined by this industry. And what for? Owners to strut around and brag to their friends they have a runner in a National? The monied to have a day's entertainment and a 'flutter'. And the mugs to gamble their money away and drink themselves stupid. Racing will never be banned, there's way too much money in it - but by God I wish it would be.

As for those worrying about what will happen to the 'happy hackers' if riding is made illegal - I think we are probably the last or last-but-one-generation where 'ordinary' people will ever have the privilege of having our own horse for leisure or pleasure. Horses and riding will be for the elite, with more focus than ever on competitive activities above all else. The costs are becoming prohibitive, and most people today are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads and food on the table than being able to take on buying and caring for a horse.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

With absolutely no argument whatsoever with EOAS this is the stand out comment for me from this whole thread.

Wow. Just wow. I don't believe we have any right to put horses into this situation, that the effects of a single race, even if they survive it, can have repercussions up to a year later for that horse. How on earth can a sporting body which claims horse welfare is at the heart of all they do allow this kind of event to take place? What fools they must take us for as they sit in their own entitled bubble, mocking and belittling people who express concern for the horses that are being physically and mentally ruined by this industry. And what for? Owners to strut around and brag to their friends they have a runner in a National? The monied to have a day's entertainment and a 'flutter'. And the mugs to gamble their money away and drink themselves stupid. Racing will never be banned, there's way too much money in it - but by God I wish it would be.

As for those worrying about what will happen to the 'happy hackers' if riding is made illegal - I think we are probably the last or last-but-one-generation where 'ordinary' people will ever have the privilege of having our own horse for leisure or pleasure. Horses and riding will be for the elite, with more focus than ever on competitive activities above all else. The costs are becoming prohibitive, and most people today are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads and food on the table than being able to take on buying and caring for a horse.

They have changed the Welsh National quite a lot over the last few years. But being run between Xmas and New year means the ground will always be soft/heavy. I find the Grand National takes less out of a horse because the ground is better. Some horses are mud larks and love it deep. Some hate it.