Sense check please on a mild lameness plan?

[Michen]

I'll try and keep this as brief as poss- I'll probably end up missing out some key points! I have a 5 year old youngster whose pretty much just hacked with a bit of schooling and autumn hunting the last year. He's had it very easy. In around feb/march we "lost" a canter lead, he would consistently go on right lead on left rein. It persisted, so instead of working him through it I had him vet checked. He was worked up (not under saddle) and vet found him not moving as well as he could but not overtly lame. He suspected feet (arrived from Ireland with extremely poor farriery) so we x rayed and his hinds in particular weren't great. Reshod, trimmed etc to x rays and he's moving much better and will be re x rayed in another 6 weeks or so.

But we still weren't convinced he was quite right and did a ridden assessment where it was much easier/possible to see an actual right hind lameness albiet very mild. We blocked sacriollac (a likely contender with the foot issues, suspensory, hock and then fetlock which was positive but didn't completely eradicate the lameness- about 50%. But as my vet said, it's very hard to block such a minor lameness entirely as you are then contending with a numb leg type feeling which can make them look a little unlevel anyway. So we were fairly pleased with getting any kind of block. I even had the fronts blocked to ensure it wasn't a bilateral front lameness that was causing a hind issue. Nothing. We scanned and x rayed the fetlock, nothing to see but medicated it anyway.

2 weeks later and he's improved but still not 100%. He's completely sound in a trot up and post flexion, it's only under saddle that you can see it. Had vet and physio there at same time and we agreed a rehab programme and look again in 6 weeks (essentially what we'd been doing anyway, hacking in straight lines but with some in hand poles added in). I then decided yesterday that actually, this all seems a bit nuts and surely it's best just to bung him in the field for 6 weeks and look at him again then.

However I spoke to my vet and he said it's very much up to me what I choose to do but essentially there's 3 options.

1) Turn him away now, look again in 6 weeks. But hard to assess, because we'd have to get straight back on him from the field. I'm sure he'd be fine with this though as he's a chilled chap, but would many 5 year olds pulled in from the field green as grass look particularly good in the school!?
2) Carry on for now, "rehab" him, strengthen him (aka hacking and some in hand poles). Could be the best option if what's wrong is a weakness issue and something that needs work to help him level out.
3) As above, but assuming he's totally sound at 6 weeks then bung him in the field for a baby break (a month or more) anyway. If not sound, then bung him in a field for even longer (3 months).

My vet is in favour of continuing the work for now, and then turning him out at 6 weeks. He thinks the feet will benefit from stimulation and he'd prefer they were in a better place before he goes out. But he said there really is no right answer here, obviously the frustration would be that 6 weeks from now he's no better and I'll feel annoyed that we've lost another couple of months because he will need a proper stint turned away to come right. In the back of my mind I'm also questioning whether if this is some sort of strength thing, him sitting in a field isn't going to help much. But the thought of carrying on for 6 weeks, him still being not right and then having to start a long period where he's in a field is a bit depressing, would be nice to get the "turned away" time over with sooner rather than later, and I genuinely thought that was best for him but now I'm not so sure.

Any thoughts really appreciated as in the last 12 hours I've swung from chucking him out, to questioning that decision . If you've got this far thanks so much

 

[HufflyPuffly]

My question back is without the rehab work will he go back to moving/ holding himself poorly? Bunging in a field is great to give soft tissue injuries time to heal, but for posture related issues the horse will just go back to how they want to hold themselves and potentially not improve.

 

[Barlow]

I’d go with the rehab plan, in hand pole work and backing up getting him to engage his core. I suspect if you do chuck him in a field for six weeks the problem will re-emerge but just further down the line.
ETA HP has said what I wanted to say but better!

 

[Michen]

My question back is without the rehab work will he go back to moving/ holding himself poorly? Bunging in a field is great to give soft tissue injuries time to heal, but for posture related issues the horse will just go back to how they want to hold themselves and potentially not improve.

I guess that's the million dollar question and what we don't know, because we don't have a diagnosis. The only thing is, he has pretty much just hacked in mostly walk for the last 5 weeks already.. and he's still not right. But maybe now the sore fetlock has been medicated he has a chance to actually come right with work?

Or it's soft tissue in which case it won't. Argh!

 

[Michen]

I should add, the chucking in the field for 6 weeks probably wouldn't actually just be 6 weeks. I'd look at him again at the 6 week mark but even if he was 100% sound, i'd probably give it another few weeks, maybe a month, before getting back on. So it would be quite a long stint.

 

[Lipglosspukka]

You are paying for your vets advise. I would follow it.

 

[Michen]

You are paying for your vets advise. I would follow it.

Yes true, but he's really on the fence. He was just giving me an answer when I said "what would you do". But he said it really is completely 50/50, it's just if he had to swing one way or the other (because I pushed for it ) that would be the way he'd go.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

So I would go with the rehab plan, medicating the fetlock and making him work straight and symmetrically now you've eliminated the 'pain' bit will either cure or reveal the actual injury, which you might have to do anyway after the turn away stint so not really saving any time?

There is a difference between just hacking and actively working on core/posture etc with the poles and straight line work, plus if he still had the pain in his fetlock he would still have been compensating.

Skylla's bum tells me when I've been too lax on the 'oh she's straight and engaging I can just hack her for a bit' , she needs actively to do specific core/ posture work or she slips into not using her bum again because its 'easier'.

 

[Boulty]

I would say if you think it's an issue in need of rehab work & that you're expecting to improve with building correct muscle I'd carry on with that. If there's any improvement after 6 weeks even if not 100% then would probably keep going rather than totally turn him away, even if only inhand to prevent losing any progress you've made. If still no improvement would getting someone like Rob Jackson or Tom Beech to have a look be worth an investigate seeing as they both specialise in things like SI issues & if it's something subtle someone who sees that sort of thing day in day out may have a better shot at pinning it down (or being able to say "oh I've seen this before & it was X")

 

[Michen]

I would say if you think it's an issue in need of rehab work & that you're expecting to improve with building correct muscle I'd carry on with that. If there's any improvement after 6 weeks even if not 100% then would probably keep going rather than totally turn him away, even if only inhand to prevent losing any progress you've made. If still no improvement would getting someone like Rob Jackson or Tom Beech to have a look be worth an investigate seeing as they both specialise in things like SI issues & if it's something subtle someone who sees that sort of thing day in day out may have a better shot at pinning it down (or being able to say "oh I've seen this before & it was X")

Thanks. The problem is, I just don't know. At this point we are only guessing really.

 

[TPO]

I know you've xrayed but has there been any scans for soft tissue?

If it was/is soft tissue then I'd turn away to rest and heal.

If there havent been any scans I'd presume because vet didnt see any reason to. Knowing how thorough you both are they would be done if there was any indication that they would help.

Personally I'd do option B and keep him in "rehab" work. It'll either kill him (not literally!!) or cure him. Meaning you and vet either have something more obvious to investigate or that it had just been a weakness that the rehab has successfully rehabbed.

Then I'd do the turn away if you and vet still think its required.

I just dont have the patience to play "wait and see" with turning away an unknown quantity (when it isnt a last resort or for something like resting an injury or damage). As vet is ok with the gentle work plan I'd stick to it and would also keep a detailed diary during it. Use it to note every seemingly inconsequential detail because sometimes looking back that helps to build a picture and spot a pattern.

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

I (touch wood) don't really have much experience with horses going wrong and rehabbing but for what you describe I would probably edge towards the gentle hacking for 6 weeks and maybe some postural improving ground work. My mare looked absolutely awful now I look back at old videos, to the point where if I had the experience I do now I would probably phone a vet, but it was strengthening work out hacking that improved her.

Then if in 6 weeks he's no better or is worse then I'd look to pop in a field. Whereas if you did it the other way round he's lost any muscle/strength he had and that could make him look worse!

Tricky one though!

 

[Roxylola]

I'd consider Tom Beech, or possibly getting in touch with Dan Wain for a video or in person assessment- he's recommended by Tom and has really good knowledge on rehab exercises.
I don't see any harm turning away for a break, but I'm not sure I'd expect him to come back any different without some work

 

[Michen]

I know you've xrayed but has there been any scans for soft tissue?

If it was/is soft tissue then I'd turn away to rest and heal.

If there havent been any scans I'd presume because vet didnt see any reason to. Knowing how thorough you both are they would be done if there was any indication that they would help.

Personally I'd do option B and keep him in "rehab" work. It'll either kill him (not literally!!) or cure him. Meaning you and vet either have something more obvious to investigate or that it had just been a weakness that the rehab has successfully rehabbed.

Then I'd do the turn away if you and vet still think its required.

I just dont have the patience to play "wait and see" with turning away and unknown quantity (when it isnt a last resort or for something like resting an injury or damage). As vet is ok with the gentle work plan I'd stick to it and would also keep a detailed diary during it. Using it to note every seemingly inconsequential details because sometimes looking back that helps to build a picture and spot a pattern.

Yes, I mentioned in the post- we scanned too. Both legs actually. Everywhere Nothing.

I sound like a nutter eh, my vet was tickled when I insisted we block the front feet too lol!

Yes that sounds quite sensible actually with the kill or cure bit. I just want to do whatever is best for Bear, he doesn't *need* to be in work other than if it's genuinely for his own benefit. It's sad for my friend and I as we have great fun hacking and playing ponies with the two of them together but ultimately whatever is right for him is what will be done.

I guess the trouble is, I'm rubbish at spotting anything. I don't think i'd see an improvement, or a decline, it takes the vet to watch him ridden to see anything. Argh, wish I was more competent!

 

[Michen]

I'd consider Tom Beech, or possibly getting in touch with Dan Wain for a video or in person assessment- he's recommended by Tom and has really good knowledge on rehab exercises.
I don't see any harm turning away for a break, but I'm not sure I'd expect him to come back any different without some work

Yep I think I will defo take him to Tom, there's a clinic on the 10th of May he can go to. I'm not sure what Tom will see though as he doesn't do ridden assessments does he? And the horse looks fine in a straight line/flexion etc. But maybe he will see something my vet hasn't.

 

[Squeak]

I've got this with one of mine at the moment. Only very minutely wrong, chiro has helped but we're looking at feet as there's no inflammation or anything on him and going to try re-balancing a front foot.

Prior to this he was feeling better than he ever had, stronger and more supple, a completely different horse to last year.

I half wonder if it's something going on with the fields going from really soft to really hard and excessive sugar in grass or something like that. I'm going for the gentle rehab option while we give the re-balancing a chance otherwise I'll have to keep digging.

Any chance of ulcers? Hind gut ones can make them look wrong on their off hind and can be a bit hard to find.

ETA mine is also sound in a straight line and flexions - I've heard of a couple recently like this which is why I wondered if it was related to the ground/ grass or something but maybe I've just noticed them more because of mine.

 

[Michen]

I've got this with one of mine at the moment. Only very minutely wrong, chiro has helped but we're looking at feet as there's no inflammation or anything on him and going to try re-balancing a front foot.

Prior to this he was feeling better than he ever had, stronger and more supple, a completely different horse to last year.

I half wonder if it's something going on with the fields going from really soft to really hard and excessive sugar in grass or something like that. I'm going for the gentle rehab option while we give the re-balancing a chance otherwise I'll have to keep digging.

Any chance of ulcers? Hind gut ones can make them look wrong on their off hind and can be a bit hard to find.

I think it would be highly unlikely, but he does/has had a liver problem which is fine now (enzymes back to normal levels). We never found the cause other than assuming it was a mild hepatitis.

He's the least ulcery horse ever, he's basically horizontal and not remotely girthy, sensitive, stressy. Just a super happy cheeky little chap that basically goes around smiling!

 

[Roxylola]

Yep I think I will defo take him to Tom, there's a clinic on the 10th of May he can go to. I'm not sure what Tom will see though as he doesn't do ridden assessments does he? And the horse looks fine in a straight line/flexion etc. But maybe he will see something my vet hasn't.

He just treats the horse in front of him, but from a holistic stance, so he will assess him for tight areas etc - with it only showing under saddle I think what he does manipulation wise would be really productive. He did look at ridden video of Charlie- because I showed him not because he asked, but he won't dismiss it if you think it's helpful.

 

[TPO]

Yes, I mentioned in the post- we scanned too. Both legs actually. Everywhere Nothing.

I sound like a nutter eh, my vet was tickled when I insisted we block the front feet too lol!

Yes that sounds quite sensible actually with the kill or cure bit. I just want to do whatever is best for Bear, he doesn't *need* to be in work other than if it's genuinely for his own benefit. It's sad for my friend and I as we have great fun hacking and playing ponies with the two of them together but ultimately whatever is right for him is what will be done.

I guess the trouble is, I'm rubbish at spotting anything. I don't think i'd see an improvement, or a decline, it takes the vet to watch him ridden to see anything. Argh, wish I was more competent!

Sorry, blind as a bat and totally skimmed over the scan part ??‍

If you dont feel confident in seeing changes/improvements (I can't in my own because I stare so hard it all morphs and distorts until they look crippled all round ?) then could you take weekly videos?

Walk and trot up in hand and walk/trot/canter(?) on each rein under saddle? Slo mo mode helps massively too.

A tad overkill but...if you were still worried about not seeing things you could buy packs of sticky dots from a stationary shop. Stick them on boney points like point of shoulder, knee, fetlock, hock, point of hip, buttock & loins (to save me typing out the long names!) on both side and then its *much* easier to see unlevelness and any differences in Range of Movement etc

 

[Tiddlypom]

I'd echo the chiro or osteo vet check at this time, they can pick up on the tiniest of niggles and address them.

Maybe just walk in hand over ground poles til then, that should keep his core strength ticking over but not aggravate anything.

My IDx with the wonky pelvis and other issues benefits hugely from 20 mins most days walking in hand round the perimeter of my arena over ground poles, it keeps her in pretty good order in between chiro vet visits.

 

[FlyingCircus]

To not read and run...I really sympathise! I'm in the exact same position with my mare. There is low level intermittent lameness in her near hind that most people just can't see (including a vet.. ).

She's not right but she's not properly broken, and I too have no idea whether turning away would be for the best or trying to rehab her and get her working properly. It's difficult! I'm swaying towards sending her to a rehab yard, if her visit to horsepital in a weeks time doesn't show any clear indicators and change our direction.

Very frustrating!

 

[Michen]

Thanks everyone you have definitely helped me come to a conclusion, and I just spoke to my vet (again) to discuss some of the points made here.

So the plan is to rehab (in the mean time I will hunt down Tom Beech, he's doing a clinic in Cheshire where I'm heading on the 3rd May. Was going to just take Bog but might just bring Bear too and he can go to the clinic which is really close to where I'm staying, if not there's others). If he's improved in 6 weeks then great, we know the work is key. If still not improved then it's easier to bung him in the field and not wonder if that's the right thing to do or not.

He did re iterate that he's being very picky, it really is very mild but it's obviously not something we want to ignore in a young horse as we'd be kicking ourselves for doing so in a years time if we had a proper issue. And he also said we aren't keeping him in work to "crack on", we are keeping him in rehab type work to try and help him- and that those are two very different scenarios.

Thanks again everyone, power of HHO strikes again

 

[palo1]

FWIW and I don't have huge experience of very minor/highly irritating lamenesses, as he is so young and your vet is happy enough I would gently rehab/work him according to advice. Strengthening up in the right way won't hurt him and if he gets worse you will be able to see/vet can see and that gives you more to go on. There is a danger in chucking a horse out that when you assess, you are actually assessing an unfit/soft horse when the problem is actually one related to work so not especially helpful in my view.

Years ago a young horse of mine regularly scuffed his hinds; he was, according to vets sound but it really, really bothered me especially as one was worse than the other. I was convinced that there was something pretty serious amiss but my very good vet advised gentle but consistent work. Hind scuffing went on for quite a while with me gritting my teeth in frustration but lo and behold, plenty of the right kind of work and vet support and weakness went away. That horse has actually been incredibly sound (touch wood) for years. Young horses can be tricky in that sense so for me, gentle work would be the way forward.

 

[ihatework]

I would 100% continue with the rehabbing at this stage.

 

[sherry90]

I’d do the rehab. Doesn’t sound to me likes he is what most would call ‘lame’ but rather unlevel which in a 5yo isn’t uncommon. If they can’t find anything on scans/x rays and working him lightly hacking and poles working on straightness cannot do any harm and I think would be better for him than turning away. Obviously if he still isn’t quite right after that turn away and see if that helps but I suspect you’ll be back on in a few weeks and he will feel different. Then he will throw something else your way - ahhh young horses ?

 

[Alibear]

I would 100% continue with the rehabbing at this stage.

Totally this. You'll actually be ahead as if you turn away now for 6 weeks and then bring him in and he's not quite right then your next step would likely be rehab work anyway.
I'm bringing one back into work, last week was fab, this week we're a little off. I think I overdid it last week so I'm going several steps back and starting again. Progress is never a straight line.

 

[maya2008]

My old New Forest never went sound from field rest, you had to ride her sound. This was because she'd be an idiot in the field from boredom the second she started feeling better, and injure herself again. Current New Forests are similar....I tried field rest last winter when their incessant playing in mud kept causing them to injure different muscles - again and again. Then I ran out of patience with that route and started hacking them out in walk (at which they were sound). A few weeks of nice tiring walk hacks and they were much perkier and feeling better. So I cautiously tried trot, and that was fine too. Upped the trot gently and eventually all was good. I have now done away with the extra day off I always give youngsters, and upped the work. I need them tired so they don't fool around and hurt themselves!

My usual plan goes - a couple of weeks off to rest the worst of it away, then get on and go gently as soon as they're ready. If the riding makes it worse, stop - but to date the only time it did was when old girl's arthritis finally got to the point where she needed injections.

If yours will rest beautifully in the field and not play, field rest is great. If he'll play and muck around, ride him. You want him just a little too tired to be an idiot, or nothing will ever heal! Equally, if it's something minor and old then if you can strengthen the muscles around it, the unlevelness will go away.

 

[Michen]

My old New Forest never went sound from field rest, you had to ride her sound. This was because she'd be an idiot in the field from boredom the second she started feeling better, and injure herself again. Current New Forests are similar....I tried field rest last winter when their incessant playing in mud kept causing them to injure different muscles - again and again. Then I ran out of patience with that route and started hacking them out in walk (at which they were sound). A few weeks of nice tiring walk hacks and they were much perkier and feeling better. So I cautiously tried trot, and that was fine too. Upped the trot gently and eventually all was good. I have now done away with the extra day off I always give youngsters, and upped the work. I need them tired so they don't fool around and hurt themselves!

My usual plan goes - a couple of weeks off to rest the worst of it away, then get on and go gently as soon as they're ready. If the riding makes it worse, stop - but to date the only time it did was when old girl's arthritis finally got to the point where she needed injections.

If yours will rest beautifully in the field and not play, field rest is great. If he'll play and muck around, ride him. You want him just a little too tired to be an idiot, or nothing will ever heal! Equally, if it's something minor and old then if you can strengthen the muscles around it, the unlevelness will go away.

Sigh, no. He's extremely playful. These are regular moves for him. He actually fell over on his side the other day (after all this started), which I'm sure doesn't help matters.

 

[Lamehorses]

Another vote for rehab route.
Long story short, mine had mild performance issues, slight right hind lameness. 18 months of battling various problems, remedial farriery etc.
She is now recovering / rehabbing from kissing spine surgery. No sign of any lameness.
If you turn away you'll not get any answer on what the issue is. Rehabbing route can help with all sorts of issues & should instantly notice any deterioration so unlikely to make things worse unless you go mad.
Walk your horse sound is a phrase my old yo used & it makes sense

 

[Boulty]

Sounds like a plan... Toying with idea of seeing if I can get to one of his clinics with the STILL unbacked fuzzball... He's just not moving correctly in front & seems a bit stiff / tight holding his back feet up to be picked out & (I'm going to seem certifiable mentioning this) he used to roll right over & I've noticed he doesn't seem to be atm. Have also finally started doing stuff with an instructor (just on the ground atm) which should help with his posture as well.