Sense check please on a mild lameness plan?

[spacefaer]

I've found that young horses can become intermittently lame/sore as they grow and develop. No real cause, just what they used to call growing pains.
I'd keep him in consistent work while he continues to strengthen and develop. I bet he'll fix himself.

 

[Michen]

Sorry to read that Boulty. Hopefully neither of ours will be too frustrating. I could do with both horses giving me a break from drama at the moment!

I managed to get Bear onto a Tom Beech clinic today (I don’t hang around when I’ve decided something ?) so up early to trek him 80 miles north.

I really hope it’s not a waste of circa £300 INC fuel..

 

[SEL]

Sorry to read that Boulty. Hopefully neither of ours will be too frustrating. I could do with both horses giving me a break from drama at the moment!

I managed to get Bear onto a Tom Beech clinic today (I don’t hang around when I’ve decided something ?) so up early to trek him 80 miles north.

I really hope it’s not a waste of circa £300 INC fuel..

Good luck! Won't be a waste of time because he checks things over from a different perspective.

 

[Spottyappy]

Have you spoken to you farrier especially in light of the x rays?
Also, what was the physio‘s point of view, after being there with the vet?

 

[scats]

Good luck today Michen.

 

[Trouper]

Am looking forward to your report from the session with Tom and hope you can find a way forward for Bear. A second hands-on opinion is always useful!!

 

[Goldenstar]

I've found that young horses can become intermittently lame/sore as they grow and develop. No real cause, just what they used to call growing pains.
I'd keep him in consistent work while he continues to strengthen and develop. I bet he'll fix himself.

Theres a lot to said for this .
With regular Physio input changes in muscles can be monitored and if things progress you are straight in it .

 

[Red-1]

I hope your clinic is fantastic, the horse has growing pains, and you feel glad that you had enough of a blip to book onto the clinic as it is a win-win all round.

 

[Michen]

Well that was interesting. We were there about an hour and a half but I think treatment was only around ten mins!

Nothing that I didn’t already know was thrown up (which is ideal). Tightness around the sacro lumbar area and Tom thinks absolutely all LinkedIn from posture, feet, his confirmation not being very helpful and probably his natural way of going.

His treatment plan was exactly what I’d planned anyway, hacking and in hand work. He says he’s confident he will be absolutely fine but then says we’d discuss prognosis in a few months so I’m not sure what to deduce from that.

I was quite surprised he didn’t even want him trotted up though, I was a little taken aback that he didn’t want to see him move and it put me off a bit initially.

So all in all good, glad I went but haven’t learned anything new but think that’s probably a good thing! At the very least he’s now had Osteo, physio and vet (two of you count Tom) input this week so I’ve ticked every box!

 

[Michen]

Have you spoken to you farrier especially in light of the x rays?
Also, what was the physio‘s point of view, after being there with the vet?

Of course I have. Spent an entire afternoon at the vets with him shoeing and trimming to before and after x rays.

Vet and physio both present together this week. Her point of view is lots of change going on, rehab etc. Generally sore and tight over hind end but not surprising given the foot issues we are changing

 

[FlyingCircus]

Well that was interesting. We were there about an hour and a half but I think treatment was only around ten mins!

Nothing that I didn’t already know was thrown up (which is ideal). Tightness around the sacro lumbar area and Tom thinks absolutely all LinkedIn from posture, feet, his confirmation not being very helpful and probably his natural way of going.

His treatment plan was exactly what I’d planned anyway, hacking and in hand work. He says he’s confident he will be absolutely fine but then says we’d discuss prognosis in a few months so I’m not sure what to deduce from that.

I was quite surprised he didn’t even want him trotted up though, I was a little taken aback that he didn’t want to see him move and it put me off a bit initially.

So all in all good, glad I went but haven’t learned anything new but think that’s probably a good thing! At the very least he’s now had Osteo, physio and vet (two of you count Tom) input this week so I’ve ticked every box!

Did you tell him anything of your concerns before he deduced (apparently from looking at him stationary and hands on) that it was the same issues you already know about?

I know lots of people rave about him...but I would not be impressed at anyone in his position not seeing the horse moving. I'm always highly suspicious of people that do this, and often times find owner has already told them about their suspected issues, which the person being paid then just largely repeats back at them.

 

[Michen]

Did you tell him anything of your concerns before he deduced (apparently from looking at him stationary and hands on) that it was the same issues you already know about?

I know lots of people rave about him...but I would not be impressed at anyone in his position not seeing the horse moving. I'm always highly suspicious of people that do this, and often times find owner has already told them about their suspected issues, which the person being paid then just largely repeats back at them.

I explained the entire story to him. Bear looks like a scalped pin cushion so can’t hide it! Also I wasn’t going to him for a diagnosis so didn’t think it was an issue for him to know.

Yes I was really put off by that. I won’t really know if what he did was effective as I won’t be riding Bear in a way that it would show.

Still, it may have helped and that’s what counts.

 

[Tiddlypom]

He didn't even see him trot up?!! Hardly professional. He can't have got the full picture without seeing the horse move.

Whilst I hope that the session was useful for you and Bear, that is scandalous .

My chiro vet always watches them in walk and trot in a straight line, plus walk, trot, canter on the lunge (assuming they are not too crocked), then takes it from there.

 

[Michen]

Ha. I didn’t want to be too harsh as I know he’s really rated on here but yes. I did say he was a bit slippy on pure concrete (shoes due) but there was a huge gravelled area that would have been fine.

Odd. Maybe as I presented a full picture from my own vet he didn’t feel the need.

 

[scats]

That’s interesting. I’ve heard a couple of not so great things about Tom from people I know, but I will reserve judgement as I’ve never used him.

 

[Michen]

I think in summary unless Bear doesn’t improve I probably wouldn’t take him back to him for another few hundred quid. Despite not learning anything particularly new (which I don’t think is Tom’s fault btw, I was coming to him with a very investigated picture!!), if the body work was successful then it’s worth the money. Just won’t be able to prove that like you would with an established horse in full work as nothing I do with him for a while will be anything other than rehabbing anyway!

Would I take another horse with a tricky to diagnose issue as a last resort type thing? Probably.

 

[Marigold4]

Well that was interesting. We were there about an hour and a half but I think treatment was only around ten mins!

Nothing that I didn’t already know was thrown up (which is ideal). Tightness around the sacro lumbar area and Tom thinks absolutely all LinkedIn from posture, feet, his confirmation not being very helpful and probably his natural way of going.

His treatment plan was exactly what I’d planned anyway, hacking and in hand work. He says he’s confident he will be absolutely fine but then says we’d discuss prognosis in a few months so I’m not sure what to deduce from that.

I was quite surprised he didn’t even want him trotted up though, I was a little taken aback that he didn’t want to see him move and it put me off a bit initially.

So all in all good, glad I went but haven’t learned anything new but think that’s probably a good thing! At the very least he’s now had Osteo, physio and vet (two of you count Tom) input this week so I’ve ticked every box!

I have had Tom out to one of mine and I agree, it's very strange that he doesn't want to see them move. Even inhand, I think would be useful.

 

[Michen]

I have had Tom out to one of mine and I agree, it's very strange that he doesn't want to see them move. Even inhand, I think would be useful.

Oh wow so not just me. I assumed maybe it was just my horse only and that normally they were trotted up. What was your general experience?

Tbh I was expecting walk and trot up, expecting him to look at how the hoof lands, maybe how the horse crosses over with back legs.. maybe even a gag popped on the horse to check teeth.

These are all the things my vet would do, and bar the teeth, what my physio does

But that said I did present a fully worked up horse and it was clear I had addressed things like feet, knew how he landed etc but it would have been nice to have another set of eyes.

 

[FlyingCircus]

Oh wow so not just me. I assumed maybe it was just my horse only and that normally they were trotted up. What was your general experience?

Tbh I was expecting walk and trot up, expecting him to look at how the hoof lands, maybe how the horse crosses over with back legs.. maybe even a gag popped on the horse to check teeth.

These are all the things my vet would do, and bar the teeth, what my physio does

But that said I did present a fully worked up horse and it was clear I had addressed things like feet, knew how he landed etc but it would have been nice to have another set of eyes.

In the future, it might be worth not telling them anything to begin with. Any new professional I have, I ask them to access first without the history so I know they are not looking for problems I have told them already exist. I'd always prefer to hear their unbiased opinion first, and I dont think they can be unbiased after telling the full history.

I do explain to them that I'd prefer they tell me what they think first, then I'm happy to share all known history and concerns. I've never met any professionals who aren't OK with this - as most appreciate you don't get an unbiased second opinion if they know so and so said xyz, etc.

 

[ITPersonnage]

I suspect that you and your vet are so thorough that Tom Beech was scratching his head thinking "so why are you here ?". IME most vets & owners are much more slap-dash about "slight off-ness", I mean this in the nicest possible way to you as you know I am a big Bear & Bog fan and I love the way you cross all t's and dot all i's, you are an inspiration to the rest of us (apologies if this is too gushing )

 

[Michen]

In the future, it might be worth not telling them anything to begin with. Any new professional I have, I ask them to access first without the history so I know they are not looking for problems I have told them already exist. I'd always prefer to hear their unbiased opinion first, and I dont think they can be unbiased after telling the full history.

I do explain to them that I'd prefer they tell me what they think first, then I'm happy to share all known history and concerns. I've never met any professionals who aren't OK with this - as most appreciate you don't get an unbiased second opinion if they know so and so said xyz, etc.

I totally get what you mean but I didn’t really see it as necessary in this situation. On the basis of reputation, I trust that Tom would repeat as he finds and I know he was comfortable that I wasn’t expecting some miraculous answer from him... and I respect that he didn’t start finding loads of other things which I think some professionals are in danger of making up because they feel they have to add value, in the sense of additional diagnosis.

It would have been interesting to perhaps have said nothing but you can tell from shaved bits the horse has had blocks or jabs or scans to the sacroiliac, right hind fetlock, both hinds below hock etc so it doesn’t take a genius to work out a right hind issue may have been identified

 

[Michen]

I suspect that you and your vet are so thorough that Tom Beech was scratching his head thinking "so why are you here ?". IME most vets & owners are much more slap-dash about "slight off-ness", I mean this in the nicest possible way to you as you know I am a big Bear & Bog fan and I love the way you cross all t's and dot all i's, you are an inspiration to the rest of us (apologies if this is too gushing )

Yes indeed, I think it raises an eyebrow when you can detail how every hoof lands as well and whether that’s continuous or intermittent as to “this girl is completely cray cray and probably knows how many hairs are in the horses mane ?”.

 

[Marigold4]

Oh wow so not just me. I assumed maybe it was just my horse only and that normally they were trotted up. What was your general experience?

Tbh I was expecting walk and trot up, expecting him to look at how the hoof lands, maybe how the horse crosses over with back legs.. maybe even a gag popped on the horse to check teeth.

These are all the things my vet would do, and bar the teeth, what my physio does

But that said I did present a fully worked up horse and it was clear I had addressed things like feet, knew how he landed etc but it would have been nice to have another set of eyes.

I'm not sure what to make of him. The horse was ever so slightly sore/1/10ths lame in left front. I'd had a lameness work up with vet checked out

Oh wow so not just me. I assumed maybe it was just my horse only and that normally they were trotted up. What was your general experience?

Tbh I was expecting walk and trot up, expecting him to look at how the hoof lands, maybe how the horse crosses over with back legs.. maybe even a gag popped on the horse to check teeth.

These are all the things my vet would do, and bar the teeth, what my physio does

But that said I did present a fully worked up horse and it was clear I had addressed things like feet, knew how he landed etc but it would have been nice to have another set of eyes.

I'm not sure what to make of him, to be honest. I suppose I have some reservations that he can fix everything and anything, which is the impression you get reading what others have to say about him. He is very, very expensive!

My horse was intermittent 1/10 lame; vet work up done; no cause found. Tom said lameness was coming from right lumbar region and worked there. Next day lameness was gone! Happy customer. I also appreciated his emphasis on correct groundwork and polework and keeping eye level with hip. Horse had winter off, but we did two bursts of 5 weeks intensive groundwork as recommended. Horse looks really good now - quite muscular and ready to carry my weight - well, apart from the liver issue (sigh) and saddle issue (another sigh).

However, his follow up visits were very expensive and not worth it in hindsight.

So ... If there is something definite that has a muscular or alignment origin, I think he's excellent, but I think for other less defined things, perhaps not so much. I was lucky in that my horse's issue was muscular so he got fixed.

 

[Red-1]

Well that was interesting. We were there about an hour and a half but I think treatment was only around ten mins!

Nothing that I didn’t already know was thrown up (which is ideal). Tightness around the sacro lumbar area and Tom thinks absolutely all LinkedIn from posture, feet, his confirmation not being very helpful and probably his natural way of going.

His treatment plan was exactly what I’d planned anyway, hacking and in hand work. He says he’s confident he will be absolutely fine but then says we’d discuss prognosis in a few months so I’m not sure what to deduce from that.

I was quite surprised he didn’t even want him trotted up though, I was a little taken aback that he didn’t want to see him move and it put me off a bit initially.

So all in all good, glad I went but haven’t learned anything new but think that’s probably a good thing! At the very least he’s now had Osteo, physio and vet (two of you count Tom) input this week so I’ve ticked every box!

I have never had Tom, or heard of him other than on here, but I am very surprised he didn't want to see him moving, and ridden. I have had various people work on my horses, and they have all wanted to see them move, most ridden too.

 

[Michen]

I am sat here scratching my head as to how my bought to sell project horse has had a brand new saddle and a £300 Osteo visit (neither of which Bog has ever had), more saddle fitter visits in 6 months than Bog has ever had, arguably has had more actually vet visits too and I think potentially even more bills and certainly more expensive shoes.

Wtf ? Bear 1 Bog 0

 

[Michen]

I have never had Tom, or heard of him other than on here, but I am very surprised he didn't want to see him moving, and ridden. I have had various people work on my horses, and they have all wanted to see them move, most ridden too.

Yes particularly with a lameness that’s only showing under saddle. I don’t think he usually does ridden assessments but I assumed a trot up at least would be part of it.

But hey, he obviously gets results from all the reviews, and maybe there’s something to be said for just physically feeling the horse under your hands.

 

[Michen]

I'm not sure what to make of him. The horse was ever so slightly sore/1/10ths lame in left front. I'd had a lameness work up with vet checked out



I'm not sure what to make of him, to be honest. I suppose I have some reservations that he can fix everything and anything, which is the impression you get reading what others have to say about him. He is very, very expensive!

My horse was intermittent 1/10 lame; vet work up done; no cause found. Tom said lameness was coming from right lumbar region and worked there. Next day lameness was gone! Happy customer. I also appreciated his emphasis on correct groundwork and polework and keeping eye level with hip. Horse had winter off, but we did two bursts of 5 weeks intensive groundwork as recommended. Horse looks really good now - quite muscular and ready to carry my weight - well, apart from the liver issue (sigh) and saddle issue (another sigh).

However, his follow up visits were very expensive and not worth it in hindsight.

So ... If there is something definite that has a muscular or alignment origin, I think he's excellent, but I think for other less defined things, perhaps not so much. I was lucky in that my horse's issue was muscular so he got fixed.

Yep cool and he found the same region to work on with mine which I did already know as we knew from Physio the area was sore which isn’t unexpected given everything that’s given on. I won’t know if I have a sound horse under saddle for 6 weeks, which may have been the result of his work or may be the rehab.

Great to hear it made a diff to your horse and anything that helps is worth any money.

I think if I didn’t already do (with Bog) and know about the groundwork stuff it would have been extremely valuable info to be taught. But I literally rattled off what I intended to do with him right down to how I intended to have him backing up and I think that pretty much covered it ?

 

[SEL]

Yes particularly with a lameness that’s only showing under saddle. I don’t think he usually does ridden assessments but I assumed a trot up at least would be part of it.

But hey, he obviously gets results from all the reviews, and maybe there’s something to be said for just physically feeling the horse under your hands.

I did ask him actually - mine was vaguely 'not quite right' until you rode her and then it was obvious. He said he prefers to judge by what he feels rather than what he sees. I did go as an observer to a clinic of his though when a friend took her horse (who he had seen a couple of times before) and he had the mare walked up a few times because he was trying to pinpoint something different to her normal way of going.

He didn't fix mine, but then he just joins a long [expensive] list of perplexed vets!

 

[Marigold4]

Yep cool and he found the same region to work on with mine which I did already know as we knew from Physio the area was sore which isn’t unexpected given everything that’s given on. I won’t know if I have a sound horse under saddle for 6 weeks, which may have been the result of his work or may be the rehab.

Great to hear it made a diff to your horse and anything that helps is worth any money.

I think if I didn’t already do (with Bog) and know about the groundwork stuff it would have been extremely valuable info to be taught. But I literally rattled off what I intended to do with him right down to how I intended to have him backing up and I think that pretty much covered it ?

Yes, I too already knew how to do the groundwork as I have backed a number of youngsters myself. I just found the emphasis from him helpful to motivate me. It was a kind of pep talk on building up muscles.

 

[ycbm]

Well I found your report very useful, M, and it confirmed to me that I will never be calling Tom Beech, and probably no other "celebrity" bodywork "expert" either.

I've heard of far too many cases looked at, half-diagnosed, manipulated, sent away to do low level straight line work and a bit of in hand strengthening, who 3 or 6 months later are back to square one (or worse) because nobody really got to the bottom of their issues in the first place.

And there is zero chance I will ever use a person who doesn't watch the horse move.
.