Sense check please on a mild lameness plan?

[maya2008]

In fairness, when my young ones are stupid and hurt themselves, beyond ascertaining that they are lame, seeing them move isn’t as helpful as a good prod around to find the hard muscle/ouchy bit!

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Michen, thanks for your report on your visit.
I'm quite amazed that a professional didn't assess him standing, moving away and back both in walk and trot and also then from each side when walking and trotting.

Every time I have specialist (qualified vet) chiro vet (every 3 months as routine) he assesses B as above, then asks me what we've been doing, then he treats what needs doing. He's been so spot on, my regular vet is happy as he gets updates from CV.
He's relied on my input ref the riding side but when we had an unhappy unsoundness issue last September, which was only apparent on one rein under saddle at very irregular intervals, he was able to see the issue within minutes on the lunge, tho I missed it......

I hope your farrier, regular vet and physio can help sort this x

 

[Michen]

Well I found your report very useful, M, and it confirmed to me that I will never be calling Tom Beech, and probably no other "celebrity" bodywork "expert" either.

I've heard of far too many cases looked at, half-diagnosed, manipulated, sent away to do low level straight line work and a bit of in hand strengthening, who 3 or 6 months later are back to square one (or worse) because nobody really got to the bottom of their issues in the first place.

And there is zero chance I will ever use a person who doesn't watch the horse move.
.

I am not sure if your saying the issue is that I haven’t got to the bottom of the actual issue, but I’m not sure what else I can do at this point Re diagnostics.

I think the overwhelming favour is to try and ride him sound through the sort of rehab you have mentioned, but certainly if that hasn’t worked then in 6 weeks time we will be back to the rest idea but at least knowing it’s not something that is in need of rehab.

I really was set to Chuck him in a field, but I can completely understand why everyone is telling me not to at this point.

Tricky!

Edited to add, I bet in loads of case the type of rehab work does fix things though, so I can see why it’s a valid suggestion. Not sure what else he could have suggested really?

 

[Tiddlypom]

There is no valid excuse for not watching the horse move. It was not a complete assessment.

Michen will have paid a big lump of money for a fresh pair of eyes to assess the horse, but she only got a part session.

Arrogance? Laziness? Dunno, but one to be added to the bargepole list (and I’m a big believer in a dual qualified vet chiro/osteo).

 

[SusieT]

I think a lot of these 'celebrity' people are actually just good salespeople with a good patter and when you hav e a mild intermittent lameness which is mostly what they will see some will get better with controlled exercise, some will not get better and it will be hard to pinpoint how effective that person was or was not so they get away with poking a bit and hoping for the best

 

[ycbm]

I am not sure if your saying the issue is that I haven’t got to the bottom of the actual issue, but I’m not sure what else I can do at this point Re diagnostics.

I think the overwhelming favour is to try and ride him sound through the sort of rehab you have mentioned, but certainly if that hasn’t worked then in 6 weeks time we will be back to the rest idea but at least knowing it’s not something that is in need of rehab.

I really was set to Chuck him in a field, but I can completely understand why everyone is telling me not to at this point.

Tricky!

Edited to add, I bet in loads of case the type of rehab work does fix things though, so I can see why it’s a valid suggestion. Not sure what else he could have suggested really?

Stop being over sensitive, I'm criticising Tom Beech, not you or anything you've done.
.

 

[ycbm]

Edited to add, I bet in loads of case the type of rehab work does fix things though, so I can see why it’s a valid suggestion. Not sure what else he could have suggested really?

This is part of my issue. Anyone with two ounces of horse sense can make the "work long and low on straight lines only and do some in hand work" without even seeing the horse, in fact it's very often recommended on here and you're right, it very often works.

But it doesn't need paying a celebrity hundreds of pounds to get there, you were really let down, imo.
.

 

[Michen]

Stop being over sensitive, I'm criticising Tom Beech, not you or anything you've done.
.

Erm, I wasn’t meaning to be, was just valuing your opinion..aka if there was something else you thought I could do diagnosis wise etc.

 

[Michen]

This is part of my issue. Anyone with two ounces of horse sense can make the "work long and low on straight lines only and do some in hand work" without even seeing the horse, in fact it's very often recommended on here and you're right, it very often works.

But it doesn't need paying a celebrity hundreds of pounds to get there, you were really let down, imo.
.

I know what you mean. But imagine if that manipulation was what makes him better- it’ll be worth every penny!

That’s what I’m telling myself ?

 

[ycbm]

Erm, I wasn’t meaning to be, was just valuing your opinion..aka if there was something else you thought I could do diagnosis wise etc.

Maybe I was then ?

I think with something so slight in a horse so young and so green, you can go either way and either would be right. I think I'd turn away, but I have space and hills and I'm very lazy. Your actual plan sounds good to me.
.

 

[ycbm]

If it isn't resolved after that, I suspect your only option will be to work him hard enough to make it worse, so there's something more obvious to diagnose, but let's hope we don't get to that point.
.

 

[Michen]

Haha, I probably just need a bottle of wine to get over my sensitivity and the thousands of pounds I’ve spent on Bear in the last 2 weeks ??

I agree, we shall see, meanwhile he’s coming north so maybe the Cheshire hacking will fix him!

ETA, I don’t think working him hard will make it worse. I tried that in between visits, really really tried (bar jumping) and it was the same.

 

[Dexter]

I had Tom Beech out to mine and he def saw her move. Walk and trot, straight lines and then in hand getting her back legs to cross over. Maybe its changed or she was an unusual case. He did say he didnt see many with her issue, but luckily it was an easy fix. Rehab didnt involve any going backwards or eyes level with the hips either. Weird!

 

[Roxylola]

Tom said in passing to me he doesn't always trot up as part of his assessment. He did explain it somewhat but I can't remember that bit tbh.
What he did with Charlie to raise his sacrum you could see having a visible effect, and my dressage trainer has commented he's got better self carriage now and is taking his head out to the rein much better. She hadn't seen us since February. I suspect the likes of us with these tiny tiny things that likely most people wouldn't even spot are rare things for him and he gets much knottier things to deal with normally (and possibly the very high end who use him as I would a physio)
Glad you got booked and sorted, sorry it wasn't much of a resolution though

 

[milliepops]

This is part of my issue. Anyone with two ounces of horse sense can make the "work long and low on straight lines only and do some in hand work" without even seeing the horse, in fact it's very often recommended on here and you're right, it very often works.

But it doesn't need paying a celebrity hundreds of pounds to get there, you were really let down, imo.
.

I agree with the principle of this but I think lots of people just *don't* know this is a thing, or how to do it or what to expect in terms of results.
we are a bit of an echo chamber in this forum, now and then a newbie comes in and it shows just how much there's a culture of home-rehab in HHOers that is not necessarily replicated in the wider horse community.

 

[Michen]

I don’t know that it wasn’t a resolution, it might well have been I didn’t go there expecting a miracle cure for a super minor lameness that only my vet can see under saddle. I was just commenting that I was surprised the horse wasn’t trotted up, and that nothing new was found (which is a good thing!)

I am not saying it wasn’t, and if it has been then that’s brill!

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I agree with the principle of this but I think lots of people just *don't* know this is a thing, or how to do it or what to expect in terms of results.
we are a bit of an echo chamber in this forum, now and then a newbie comes in and it shows just how much there's a culture of home-rehab in HHOers that is not necessarily replicated in the wider horse community.

I totally agree MP

 

[Tiddlypom]

Tom said in passing to me he doesn't always trot up as part of his assessment. He did explain it somewhat but I can't remember that bit tbh.

I was going to post to say that I would be interested in his reasons for not necessarily trotting up, but actually that would be a lie. Whatever the guff given as the reason for not trotting up, it would be in neither the horse's or the client's best interests.

How much does a session with this guru cost? £250 ish? And he cba to trot up?

My chiro vet charges £95 per horse plus £20 travel to the yard, and she is very thorough, vey competent, very honest, and is worth every penny .

 

[Michen]

I was going to post to say that I would be interested in his reasons for not necessarily trotting up, but actually that would be a lie. Whatever the guff given as the reason for not trotting up, it would be in neither the horse's or the client's best interests.

How much does a session with this guru cost? £250 ish? And he cba to trot up?

My chiro vet charges £95 per horse plus £20 travel to the yard, and she is very thorough, vey competent, very honest, and is worth every penny .

Mine was £250. Apparently that was cheap cos he didn’t need sedation etc.. plus fuel made it more like £300 but I did have to travel to get in quicker- I could have waited for a local one. Follow up is £195.

But, tbf, for a vet to give a horse a once over and second opinion that’s not really a bad price. But I think I expected a proper work up aka flexions, lunge, whatever. However I should have clarified that beforehand.

Either way as I’ve said, if the manipulation part has worked then I’d pay that 10 x over and that’s what people seem to rave about.

 

[TPO]

I'm the first to raise an eyebrow at any therapist (or saddle fitter) that doesn't do a dynamic assessment.

I've been on yards where liveries have lame horses and when the therapist arrives the owner tells the therapist that horses are sound (ignorance, not lying) and therapist takes them at their word. That makes my eyes roll.

Having said that when someone really knows what they are doing they can pick up most of it just by looking at the horse and some hands on.

Their eye is so attuned that they can see hoof/shoe wear, asymmetric muscles (not matter how slight) and where the horse is holding themselves out of alignment. They can tell you how the horse moves before it takes a step. They are also watching all the time even if it isn't obvious.

Even something that only shows up under saddle while have a physical effect because that's how bodies work. The good and the great will feel/find/see that.

My opinion would be that Tom has managed to release the contracted muscles that were compromised/compensating in the sore/stiff areas. This then leaves a "fresh canvas" to do the rehab work with.

Even although straight, long and low is simple it's not easy. If it was we wouldn't have weak and crooked horses; theres no denying that the majority are (& their riders ?).

To do any sort of rehab (or turning away) when there is an unaddressed issue will just make the compensation stronger in the majority of horses cos like mechanics and physics innit?

I highly doubt that Tom Beech, Rob Jackson or the likes see themselves as "celebrity vets".

I'm all for sharing of experiences and reviews. Without them, for example, Michen wouldn't be aware that others have been treated by Tom without being trotted up. However some of the comments criticising him by people who have never used him/weren't there make me uncomfortable.

From what has been posted about Tom before, and I know to be true with Rob Jackson, is that they welcome questions and will reply to queries about sessions. I know it's easy to get caught up in the moment during sessions/lessons/etc and it's not until later that you have questions. I don't know if he provides a written report and/or provides feedback for clients vets but that might be worth asking for?

 

[Tiddlypom]

But I think I expected a proper work up aka flexions, lunge, whatever. However I should have clarified that beforehand.

No, you shouldn't have had to. A first assessment should include any/all of the above as necessary. You, the non veterinary qualified client, should not have had to clarify that this is what you expect to happen.

However some of the comments criticising him by people who have never used him/weren't there make me uncomfortable.

That would include me, and I stand by all my comments. The trot up (unless the horse is so crippled that it would be a welfare issue) is absolutely basic to a vet assessment.

 

[Michen]

I'm the first to raise an eyebrow at any therapist (or saddle fitter) that doesn't do a dynamic assessment.

I've been on yards where liveries have lame horses and when the therapist arrives the owner tells the therapist that horses are sound (ignorance, not lying) and therapist takes them at their word. That makes my eyes roll.

Having said that when someone really knows what they are doing they can pick up most of it just by looking at the horse and some hands on.

Their eye is so attuned that they can see hoof/shoe wear, asymmetric muscles (not matter how slight) and where the horse is holding themselves out of alignment. They can tell you how the horse moves before it takes a step. They are also watching all the time even if it isn't obvious.

Even something that only shows up under saddle while have a physical effect because that's how bodies work. The good and the great will feel/find/see that.

My opinion would be that Tom has managed to release the contracted muscles that were compromised/compensating in the sore/stiff areas. This then leaves a "fresh canvas" to do the rehab work with.

Even although straight, long and low is simple it's not easy. If it was we wouldn't have weak and crooked horses; theres no denying that the majority are (& their riders ?).

To do any sort of rehab (or turning away) when there is an unaddressed issue will just make the compensation stronger in the majority of horses cos like mechanics and physics innit?

I highly doubt that Tom Beech, Rob Jackson or the likes see themselves as "celebrity vets".

I'm all for sharing of experiences and reviews. Without them, for example, Michen wouldn't be aware that others have been treated by Tom without being trotted up. However some of the comments criticising him by people who have never used him/weren't there make me uncomfortable.

From what has been posted about Tom before, and I know to be true with Rob Jackson, is that they welcome questions and will reply to queries about sessions. I know it's easy to get caught up in the moment during sessions/lessons/etc and it's not until later that you have questions. I don't know if he provides a written report and/or provides feedback for clients vets but that might be worth asking for?

I’m not too bothered about feedback, my friend wrote loads of notes and I’m not struggling to retain what has said.

I haven’t criticised him (well I hope not? Just raised a Q) so agree, I feel a little uncomfortable, I have said repeatedly that if the manipulation helps I consider that worthwhile. My only comment was surprise at the lack of trotting up but I think I mentioned further up as you did that maybe that’s not required when you can feel the horse underneath your hands.

Hopefully my posts have remained diplomatic, it’s a shame Bear isn’t a horse I can get back on in a day or two and tell you how much if any difference there is

Hundreds of pounds whether it’s to an Osteo/physio/Chiro is worthwhile money if it helps my horse (s). Thousands I may be questioning

 

[Michen]

No, you shouldn't have had to. A first assessment should include any/all of the above as necessary. You, the non veterinary qualified client, should not have had to clarify that this is what you expect to happen.

That would include me, and I stand by all my comments. The trot up (unless the horse is so crippled that it would be a welfare issue) is absolutely basic to a vet assessment.

Yes I guess though with Bear he had been worked up by a vet literally days before (my vet is well known so he may have known him), whereas I imagine lots of people take their horses who are having performance issues but haven’t yet been worked up or looked at by a vet.

Oh god I feel I’ve opened a huge can of worms completely unintentionally ?

 

[hollyandivy123]

Ok curveball thought here....I am sure you've checked your saddle, we had one saddle whose tree was a symmetrical, which put pressure asymmetrical on the horses back. A saddle swap and a wider saddle allowed the back to recover. The horse was never what you would say lame, performance changed and like you we started to have canter lead...

Just a thought?

 

[Michen]

Ok curveball thought here....I am sure you've checked your saddle, we had one saddle whose tree was a symmetrical, which put pressure asymmetrical on the horses back. A saddle swap and a wider saddle allowed the back to recover. The horse was never what you would say lame, performance changed and like you we started to have canter lead...

Just a thought?

Yep I’ve finally found a fitter who believed me when i said the saddle I didn’t think was right. Third time lucky. He’s now got a brand new saddle, I’ve been trying to get 20 hours in it (mainly on my other horse) as saddler coming back next Thursday now the flocking is settling to re adjust.

 

[Boulty]

My experience of Tom is that he's very good at what he does, is honest but that no, he's not a miracle worker. Anyone who claims they can fix 100% of horses is a liar.

The orange one fell into the "not fixable" box but he DID make the horse more comfortable, briefly made him move straight behind for the first time in years & helped me get some answers that made me accept that we were at the end of the road.

I can't remember if he watched orange pony move (there certainly won't be have been an assessment "after" as sedation was always required to make t) but every single area he was concerned about something did show on x-ray / CT & he did find things I hadn't told him about as well as the ones I did.

I can't comment why he doesn't always want to see horses in motion... Maybe he bases what he does more on what he can feel in term of where they're carrying tension & how that might relate to other body areas (I'm not an osteopath so not 100% sure how it all works?) My normal preference is for professionals who DO want to see the horse at least in walk in a straight line but then again rather an embarrassing no of other vets HAD watched this horse trot up & were adamant I was imagining things / that was just how he moved / his conformation etc (whereas his physio, trimmer & myself weren't happy) so I suppose it depends on how good the eye of the person you're trotting up / lunging for is (& I don't claim mine is all that great tbh!)

Anyway fingers crossed for Bear that this is just a little blip that he will soon move past & that it will soon be a distant memory! I on the other hand am still dithering about fuzzball

 

[Michen]

My experience of Tom is that he's very good at what he does, is honest but that no, he's not a miracle worker. Anyone who claims they can fix 100% of horses is a liar.

The orange one fell into the "not fixable" box but he DID make the horse more comfortable, briefly made him move straight behind for the first time in years & helped me get some answers that made me accept that we were at the end of the road.

I can't remember if he watched orange pony move (there certainly won't be have been an assessment "after" as sedation was always required to make t) but every single area he was concerned about something did show on x-ray / CT & he did find things I hadn't told him about as well as the ones I did.

I can't comment why he doesn't always want to see horses in motion... Maybe he bases what he does more on what he can feel in term of where they're carrying tension & how that might relate to other body areas (I'm not an osteopath so not 100% sure how it all works?) My normal preference is for professionals who DO want to see the horse at least in walk in a straight line but then again rather an embarrassing no of other vets HAD watched this horse trot up & were adamant I was imagining things / that was just how he moved / his conformation etc (whereas his physio, trimmer & myself weren't happy) so I suppose it depends on how good the eye of the person you're trotting up / lunging for is (& I don't claim mine is all that great tbh!)

Anyway fingers crossed for Bear that this is just a little blip that he will soon move past & that it will soon be a distant memory! I on the other hand am still dithering about fuzzball

A great post

 

[Bellaboo18]

I think you might have taken my place on the clinic today Michen (I had to cancel earlier in the week). So its interesting to hear your thoughts!

Hmmm the not watching Bear move/trot up is an odd one, i'd definitely have been left confused.
The more I think about it though, the more I think I like the idea...
I booked to see Tom because I wanted him to look at the whole horse, something vets so rarely do ime. I think we can fixate on the obvious problem/lameness and ignore the underlying cause. On that basis, I can see why Tom might be successful in cases where the true cause hasn't been found(?)

 

[ester]

I know it's late but I'm just thinking that no one has ever seen me trot up, or required me to yelp during prodding to assess my own SI issues ?. It's pretty obvious when they start prodding ?

 

[FlyingCircus]

I know it's late but I'm just thinking that no one has ever seen me trot up, or required me to yelp during prodding to assess my own SI issues ?. It's pretty obvious when they start prodding ?

My (very thorough) chiropractor regularly checked in with how I was moving and standing using posture and gait analysis. Never quite asked me to trot tho!