Session 16.....

[TuscanBunnyGirl]

Yes she has very very strong hands and is hauling the poor horses head right back clearly a case of extreme Rolka best call the RSPCA :rolleyes4::rolleyes4::rolleyes4:

Actually she isn't yanking the horses head in but it's shocking that the horse is going round like that. Personally she wouldn't be coming anywhere near my horses... Are you defending her because you feel you have to or do you genuinely not see an issue here?

 

[ozpoz]

I'm sorry but if he was mine I would want a quieter, more sympathetic rider on him. He is given so many reasons to be confused that I don't enjoy watching.

 

[Mongoose11]

We appear to be going round and round in circles. It is clear that Armas believes in the final outcome being positive and is ok with the picture in the meanwhile. Sometimes the process is ugly - I've seen that before. I still wouldn't want her on my beastie and I'm surprised that she is turning to draw reins - doesn't seem right in the context of her supposed ability.

 

[Spangie]

I read these threads as I find lots of interesting viewpoints on them. I'm curious about a couple of things though.
What is the objective of the rider? Ie has she been tasked to being the horse to a certain 'level' in specified timescale?
Why is she so focused on front end when back end isn't really motoring yet?
I've used lots of spirals in the past, half transitions where you almost come back to walk then back up to trot again, lots of lateral and rely focus on rhythm.
Please don't push him too hard. It all takes time. Set the basics right and the fancy stuff will be easier.

 

[Moomin1]

I still can't get over the fact that these threads cause so much outrage. There are horses out there being starved/neglected/beaten etc etc, yet a PRE which naturally carries itself higher and more behind the vertical than your average ned, being trained by someone who 'clicks' and has considered the use of draw reins (no, I don't like draw reins myself) appears to create more hype than any of those issues.

What I see here is a horse which evades by putting itself behind the vertical, a rider who is trying her best to help the situation by coming up with alternative solutions and trying them, and a bunch of armchair experts practically suggesting she is barbaric for doing so.

Ridiculous!

 

[blitznbobs]

I still can't get over the fact that these threads cause so much outrage. There are horses out there being starved/neglected/beaten etc etc, yet a PRE which naturally carries itself higher and more behind the vertical than your average ned, being trained by someone who 'clicks' and has considered the use of draw reins (no, I don't like draw reins myself) appears to create more hype than any of those issues.

What I see here is a horse which evades by putting itself behind the vertical, a rider who is trying her best to help the situation by coming up with alternative solutions and trying them, and a bunch of armchair experts practically suggesting she is barbaric for doing so.

Ridiculous!

^^ what she said.

 

[AmyMay]

I still can't get over the fact that these threads cause so much outrage. There are horses out there being starved/neglected/beaten etc etc, yet a PRE which naturally carries itself higher and more behind the vertical than your average ned, being trained by someone who 'clicks' and has considered the use of draw reins (no, I don't like draw reins myself) appears to create more hype than any of those issues.

What I see here is a horse which evades by putting itself behind the vertical, a rider who is trying her best to help the situation by coming up with alternative solutions and trying them, and a bunch of armchair experts practically suggesting she is barbaric for doing so.

Ridiculous!

Not ridiculous at all. Interesting, discursive, and educational.

And the one thing above all we love to discuss.

I'm really grateful that Armas continues to post. I dont know another poster that would.

 

[shortstuff99]

I have to add that lateral work doesn't always help to calm horses, for my PRE x TB mare lateral work makes her super hot and more tight in the back, I only work on lateral moves when she is relaxed. As has been said before its horses for courses. I also don't agree that hands should be perfectly still, this would mean they were fixed, they should go with the movement and , in training, move the outline around to help train adjustability.

 

[AmyMay]

Why does she move her hands so much? :-(

There's nothing wrong with moving your hands, providing they're moved for the right reasons.

 

[AmyMay]

I have to add that lateral work doesn't always help to calm horses, for my PRE x TB mare lateral work makes her super hot and more tight in the back, I only work on lateral moves when she is relaxed. As has been said before its horses for courses. I also don't agree that hands should be perfectly still, this would mean they were fixed, they should go with the movement and , in training, move the outline around to help train adjustability.

You see Moomin? Discursive and educational.....

 

[Mongoose11]

I still can't get over the fact that these threads cause so much outrage. There are horses out there being starved/neglected/beaten etc etc, yet a PRE which naturally carries itself higher and more behind the vertical than your average ned, being trained by someone who 'clicks' and has considered the use of draw reins (no, I don't like draw reins myself) appears to create more hype than any of those issues.

What I see here is a horse which evades by putting itself behind the vertical, a rider who is trying her best to help the situation by coming up with alternative solutions and trying them, and a bunch of armchair experts practically suggesting she is barbaric for doing so.


Ridiculous!

You seem to be the only one worked up today Mooms! Nobody has suggestrd she is barbaric at all. Stop exaggerating also, i'm in a garden lounger currently!

 

[charlie76]

Armas.. Feel free to ignore me but from one owner of a BTV horse to another before going the draw rein route try a straight bar nathe snaffle with a drop noseband. It had a huge effect on my horse. It encouraged him to hold and take the contact down and forward , kept him straight and was a massive turning point in his contact issues, eventually he learnt to lean on it, which I was more than happy with as at least he was curling behind the bit, I then simply swapped the bit to a normal snaffle but an egg but as the loose ring gives too much play.
I had a lesson on him last week and the trainer commented on what a lovely connection I had with the front, this was extreme praise for this horse.
Give it a try, it really does work.

 

[charlie76]

Oh and would also agree that lateral work, until mine accepted the contact, made it worse, he would curl and drop behind the leg.

 

[Moomin1]

You see Moomin? Discursive and educational.....

Oh don't get me wrong, I didn't mean EVERY post, and I certainly wouldn't want Armas to stop posting - I love watching the footage.

I merely mean that there are numerous posts on these threads that just say things like "I would never have that rider on my horse, making him go along with his head tucked in" and such rubbish. ;-)

 

[AmyMay]

Oh don't get me wrong, I didn't mean EVERY post, and I certainly wouldn't want Armas to stop posting - I love watching the footage.

I merely mean that there are numerous posts on these threads that just say things like "I would never have that rider on my horse, making him go along with his head tucked in" and such rubbish. ;-)

But that's what is so interesting in many ways. We agree/we disagree. We make outlandish comments.

I would state very strongly my belief in the use of lateral work to encourage certain things. And here they have just been disagreed with because of the exact opposite results they produced. I will now be able to use this information in the future.

 

[Armas]

Armas.. Feel free to ignore me but from one owner of a BTV horse to another before going the draw rein route try a straight bar nathe snaffle with a drop noseband. It had a huge effect on my horse. It encouraged him to hold and take the contact down and forward , kept him straight and was a massive turning point in his contact issues, eventually he learnt to lean on it, which I was more than happy with as at least he was curling behind the bit, I then simply swapped the bit to a normal snaffle but an egg but as the loose ring gives too much play.
I had a lesson on him last week and the trainer commented on what a lovely connection I had with the front, this was extreme praise for this horse.
Give it a try, it really does work.

Thats the bit he is in at the moment !!!!!!

 

[Auslander]

James. I could be remembering completely wrong, but didn't David have a bit of a breakthrough with him when he put the double on?

 

[Armas]

He did have a break through with the double why what are you thinking. What did you make of todays session Puppetmaster

 

[Honey08]

It would be very interesting to see what comments came back if you were to enter them in an actual competition.

 

[be positive]

It is interesting that she has suggested using running reins, not the most logical progression but one I have just tried on a horse I am schooling that goes BTV although I used them mainly for hacking as he tends to drop behind spook then run, they have really helped with the connection, I can now use a stronger leg and seat and this has enabled him to step under more so the BTV is almost eliminated. While I used them initially more for safety reasons they have made such a difference I can see where she is coming from by having a different type of control he may just gain the much needed confidence to carry himself up through his shoulders, become straighter and step under more correctly.

He did look better today at times really starting to work through, by cantering earlier in the session he gains more freedom, just a shame that it is not sustained for longer.

 

[DabDab]

He did look better today at times really starting to work through, by cantering earlier in the session he gains more freedom, just a shame that it is not sustained for longer.

I have thought that a lot recently watching Armas' training - I think he would benefit a lot from working more in canter than trot. From experience I've also found that rushy horses respond much better to lateral work in walk and then canter, with the lateral work in trot left until they are more relaxed.

 

[ester]

Lots of posters on these threads do know what they are talking about too though Moomin and are certainly more than armchair critics . I like reading their thoughts.

 

[be positive]

I have thought that a lot recently watching Armas' training - I think he would benefit a lot from working more in canter than trot. From experience I've also found that rushy horses respond much better to lateral work in walk and then canter, with the lateral work in trot left until they are more relaxed.

Lazy horses also respond to cantering before trot work starts, I have one that hardly moves until he has cantered for some time to get his back up and hind legs under him , watching Armas he seems, in my view, to work best when he has cantered then worked laterally once he starts to step under both forward and laterally he opens his frame and settles but is not often allowed to remain there for long enough for it to become established before being rushed onto the next thing.

 

[Moomin1]

Lots of posters on these threads do know what they are talking about too though Moomin and are certainly more than armchair critics . I like reading their thoughts.

I agree definately! But lots of them also aren't - and clearly talk a load of unknowledgeable nonsense! ;-)

I like the posts which actually give reason behind the thinking, not just the ones which say they wouldn't allow the rider on their horse simply because of the way the horse is going. Just doesn't come across that they are thinking outside the box to me.

 

[Venevidivici]

^^this. Mine usually gives the most lovely,swinging,effortlessly loose trot after having been cantered-not before though!

 

[milliepops]

I can see where she is coming from by having a different type of control he may just gain the much needed confidence to carry himself up through his shoulders, become straighter and step under more correctly.

He did look better today at times really starting to work through, by cantering earlier in the session he gains more freedom, just a shame that it is not sustained for longer.

Coming rather late to this thread but this comment is what stuck out to me - I have already said this to J but I thought perhaps she meant running reins (attached below saddle flaps) rather than draw reins (attached to girth between legs) from the gesture she made when she was talking about them. It's not a crazy idea, if he is not straight then he won't be able to engage properly. As she said it's worth a try, it was pretty clear from her comments that if it caused him to suck back then they would be binned

I got the impression from today's session that he was becoming fixed in the neck again and unwilling to flex laterally. Partly because of the tightness that has (understandably) resulted from increasing the amount she's asking him to wait & push up in the trot. Running reins would also help to release that blocking, if used in a sensitive way. I still don't see a lack of balance or sensitivity that other posters have mentioned, I think she is sensitive to the horse but she is being quite clear in the questions she is asking and not just chucking the towel in before he answers.

Have also already said that it wasn't necessarily the session I would personally have ridden if it had been my horse - an easy stretchy session to take a step back and consolidate the forward-out reach would have been nice, but that said, I thought it was pleasing to see how he now accepts the work well - when she asks him to 'collect' the trot steps and put a bit more energy into the stride he is now willing to do that. Last week I think he would have hopped into canter instead.

The BTV thing will crop up again and again with this horse I think, every time a new or more difficult question is asked. It won't be fixed overnight and even if she were to not put any additional pressure on the horse until he could walk/working trot/canter at all times IFV, the next time he was challenged I think that's where he would return to. It's really encouraging to see that he will still reach to the contact when the pressure comes off, so it's not that he is un-learning that when she asks more of him, just that he can't do it all at once yet.

So, all together, a mixed bag I suppose, but the horse looks more relaxed and willing in the work and certainly looked cheerful at the end I believe the plan is to canter more tomorrow? Which may help to release the back a little as well as refresh the forwardness.

 

[vieshot]

I don't know the first thing about all this jazz but that's not a relaxed horse. Christ knows what your seeing....

 

[rosita]

Haven't got past 2 minutes. Actually really really cross. Over bent, on the forehand and lame behind. Utterly appalled at the tag line on this video and think you need to get professional advice. Poor horse.

 

[DabDab]

I can't listen with sound on - does the rider talk about running reins at the end?

 

[Moomin1]

I don't know the first thing about all this jazz but that's not a relaxed horse. Christ knows what your seeing....

And there's a perfect example of what I am meaning.

If you don't know about this sort of stuff, don't try and assess it?! Simple! He may not be relaxed, is any horse relaxed at EVERY stage of their life/training? I highly doubt it, or quite frankly, we would never have to actually train them.

If you ask most athletes I bet they will tell you they are quite often uncomfortable in their training too..