Armas
Well-Known Member
She does indeed and explains her reasons.
Session 16.....
- Thread starter Armas
- Start date
She does indeed and explains her reasons.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
Yes, from memory as I watched it when first posted and it's been a long day, she said he is escaping through the right shoulder and she is unable to be straight herself as she is continually correcting that. She actually used the word 'draw reins' but pointed to the saddle/shoulder area as she was describing them which is why I thought of running reins instead. She did say a couple of times that it would be a trial and they would be removed if they caused more problems.
be positive
Well-Known Member
milliepops I thought she meant using running, not draw reins, they act differently and draw reins would not really help either with straightness, flexion or going BTV , running reins are more subtle and more appropriate if anything is to be used.
Going BTV is his default and will be where he goes whenever pressure is put on, while the picture on the whole is not of a relaxed horse unless a way is found to work through this he will never learn to go correctly or will remain at a basic level forever, I just feel things are moving a bit quicker than he can deal with most of the time and would like to see him have more time to consolidate before he moves on to the next lesson, it is almost as if there pressure to get him to a certain level in rather a short period of time.
Going BTV is his default and will be where he goes whenever pressure is put on, while the picture on the whole is not of a relaxed horse unless a way is found to work through this he will never learn to go correctly or will remain at a basic level forever, I just feel things are moving a bit quicker than he can deal with most of the time and would like to see him have more time to consolidate before he moves on to the next lesson, it is almost as if there pressure to get him to a certain level in rather a short period of time.
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
OK thanks, will try and listen with sound on later.
Has she used a running rein through a cavesson when long reining at all?
rosita
Well-Known Member
It would help if the horse was sound. Rather than chuck gadgets etc on. I know I don't post often but really? Shall say it again..over bent, on the forehand and lame behind. It's not rocket science.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
Armas
Well-Known Member
Not lame behind clearly you know far more than the vets that have seen him and passed him fit for work.
be positive
Well-Known Member
yes, sorry wasn't clear from the bit of your post that I quoted, I was agreeing
I just put the last post in to try and clarify as most people refer to draw reins being used when she did describe running reins as you said.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
And mine but chipping away at it helped in walk at first and shock horror passing the outside rien across the neck in difficult moments which was shown to me by a classical trainer and horrified me at first but the feel of the rein agaisnt his neck helped him a lot .
I tried the Nathe on him he hated it .
That horse has had a long break from training doing other stuff I am just picking him up again he's why I am enjoying these threads so much.
rosita
Well-Known Member
Fit for work? He's not right behind, and depends what you're asking to do as to what 'work' its fit for. Crawl up your back side all you wish but that horse is thoroughly over bent and on the forehand showing up issues behind. And quite frankly there are vets and then there are vets. I wish the horse luck and that you learn to read him better.
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
I know that in a few other countries they refer to them by the same name, which they translate as draw reins - so that includes: reins that attach to the girth, go through the bit rings and up to the hands; reins that attach to the girth, go through the bit rings and attach to the saddle; and reins that attach to the girth go through the d rings of a cavesson and attach to the saddle.
Might be the case in French.
charlie76
Well-Known Member
I see you answered about the bit, however, I would still try a drop noseband, it gives a totally different feel to the flash and seems to give the bit stability which stops the horse curling.
With regards to the type of work, I can see the rider is riding with long ish reins in an attempt to encourage him to keep his neck out. Unfortunately, with horses that go behind the vertically, this won't have the desired effect as you can push out a contact that's never connected in the first place.
The rider. Needs, once the horse is warmed up, to ride on a much shorter, stiller consistent contact until she feels the horse connect and only then can she allow the hand forward, still maintaing. Contact. I can see the thought behind having him forward so he takes her into a contact but this needs to be done in a balanced fashion not hammering round the outside track.
Circles and turns incorporateing half halts, on and back in a quite fashion, halt to trot transitions with a secure contact.
Lots of canter work, on and back, on a circle before doing too much trot will get him mire through and connected.
I would avoid lateral work, half steps and flying changed until the horse cam walk, trot and canter simple circles, loops and turn with a correct contact. All those tricks do is tense him and make the contact issues worse.
Finally. Give him frequent rests. He seems to be going non stop in the sessions. That's no good for muscles learning new things.
With regards to the type of work, I can see the rider is riding with long ish reins in an attempt to encourage him to keep his neck out. Unfortunately, with horses that go behind the vertically, this won't have the desired effect as you can push out a contact that's never connected in the first place.
The rider. Needs, once the horse is warmed up, to ride on a much shorter, stiller consistent contact until she feels the horse connect and only then can she allow the hand forward, still maintaing. Contact. I can see the thought behind having him forward so he takes her into a contact but this needs to be done in a balanced fashion not hammering round the outside track.
Circles and turns incorporateing half halts, on and back in a quite fashion, halt to trot transitions with a secure contact.
Lots of canter work, on and back, on a circle before doing too much trot will get him mire through and connected.
I would avoid lateral work, half steps and flying changed until the horse cam walk, trot and canter simple circles, loops and turn with a correct contact. All those tricks do is tense him and make the contact issues worse.
Finally. Give him frequent rests. He seems to be going non stop in the sessions. That's no good for muscles learning new things.
Armas
Well-Known Member
Charming may I congratulate you on your eloquence. Perhaps I could ask which charm school you attended.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
Wow...turned into quite a thread already then.
I have not watched the video properly yet. I have skipped through it in about a minute just watching snippets.
I will watch it all in a bit as just back from a lovely meal but unfortunately, Fly decided to use my foot as a launch pad for a spook earlier so sitting with my foot under a table instead of raised was not such a good thing. I am off to ice it and will watch video in the morning and comment then when I have had the chance to see it all.
From the snippets, I suspect I will have another mixed review to be honest. Also...from the comments I have seen, there is much talk about Armas looking relaxed, not looking relaxed.
I think it is worth remembering that relaxation, tension, evasion and acceptance are all different. They don't always go together, sometimes they do.
I see in the little clips I flicked through that he did have times of relaxation, but they came with a little evasion. I also saw that he had times of tension, but they came alongside acceptance.
The latter, tension with acceptance is not on the whole a bad thing. He is learning something new, there is bound to be tension and tension is beneficial to a point. It sharpens the mind and makes learning more productive. It goes wrong when it is mixed with evasion. Instead, where I saw tension, I also saw acceptance. Not necessarily of the bit, but of the rider and the aids. So...while he is tense, he seems happy to be doing the work through his acceptance of it. Where he is relaxed, he seems to be getting a little clever and lulling the trainer into a false sense of security from which he reverts to evasion.
That is based on just snippets though and so I may change my opinion entirely when I watch the whole session.
As for running reins...I don't disagree that they can have a use. I don't personally have a problem with her trying it...stranger things have happened than a gadget working when used properly.
That said, the reasons she wants to try them could all be dealt with through correct training anyway that would negate their need. It would take longer, but I personally would prefer that as it gets to the cause of the problem, rather than just dealing with a symptom.
Ok...I'm off to try and make my foot normal sized again
I have not watched the video properly yet. I have skipped through it in about a minute just watching snippets.
I will watch it all in a bit as just back from a lovely meal but unfortunately, Fly decided to use my foot as a launch pad for a spook earlier so sitting with my foot under a table instead of raised was not such a good thing. I am off to ice it and will watch video in the morning and comment then when I have had the chance to see it all.
From the snippets, I suspect I will have another mixed review to be honest. Also...from the comments I have seen, there is much talk about Armas looking relaxed, not looking relaxed.
I think it is worth remembering that relaxation, tension, evasion and acceptance are all different. They don't always go together, sometimes they do.
I see in the little clips I flicked through that he did have times of relaxation, but they came with a little evasion. I also saw that he had times of tension, but they came alongside acceptance.
The latter, tension with acceptance is not on the whole a bad thing. He is learning something new, there is bound to be tension and tension is beneficial to a point. It sharpens the mind and makes learning more productive. It goes wrong when it is mixed with evasion. Instead, where I saw tension, I also saw acceptance. Not necessarily of the bit, but of the rider and the aids. So...while he is tense, he seems happy to be doing the work through his acceptance of it. Where he is relaxed, he seems to be getting a little clever and lulling the trainer into a false sense of security from which he reverts to evasion.
That is based on just snippets though and so I may change my opinion entirely when I watch the whole session.
As for running reins...I don't disagree that they can have a use. I don't personally have a problem with her trying it...stranger things have happened than a gadget working when used properly.
That said, the reasons she wants to try them could all be dealt with through correct training anyway that would negate their need. It would take longer, but I personally would prefer that as it gets to the cause of the problem, rather than just dealing with a symptom.
Ok...I'm off to try and make my foot normal sized again
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
yep, quite possible
even in this country we get in a muddle, I was talking about vienna reins to someone recently and they looked completely blank to start with as they knew them by a different term. diagrams needed to avoid confusion! rosita
Well-Known Member
A very expensive one.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Your father should ask for his money back.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
Oh, before I go...I can't remember if I wrote in a reply to one of the first few videos (think I did) or if I just said it by PM to James, but...I said right at the start that this horse loves to and massively benefits from canter work. I think in a PM to James I said if it were me, I would warm up in walk and go straight to canter work to loosen him up, fire the engine and get him relaxed and forward in body and mind.
Nice to see others are seeing that and it's not just me going slowly mad :smile3:
Nice to see others are seeing that and it's not just me going slowly mad :smile3:
_GG_
Well-Known Member
The shorter rein contact approach was how she started with him...keeping the contact consistent no matter where he put his head.
I for one am glad she is being flexible in her methods and searching for what might work with this horse. I think it's pretty clear what he needs, but I'm not on him.
rosita
Well-Known Member
You should sue spec savers. Short and to the point. I refuse to believe that anyone can claim to be a horseman/woman and be incapable of seeing that the horse is wrong behind. This has reminded me why I generally don't bother here as you have resorted to distraction and personal insults to protect your ego rather than think about what's best for that horse. Maybe happy hack?!
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
And yet another 'over bent' post. Do you make a point of posting 'above the bit', 'poking nose', 'falling in on left rein' on other schooling threads?
As for lame behind, are you a vet?
charlie76
Well-Known Member
i said many vids ago he wasn't sound behind, right hind to be precise. I was ignored. I have therefore not mentioned it again but I do believe it does have a huge impact on whether he progresses in his work as whilst he is not able to push from behind he will never connect. Hey Ho... what do I know.
Mongoose11
Well-Known Member
I think this is just silly. Ok, so Rosita is being rude, but I don't get this 'do you school PREs?', 'did you give birth to a PRE?', 'Are you a vet?' Malarkey. Are you seriously suggesting that people shouldn't feel that they can see when a horse is lame unless they are a vet? Or give an opinion on a training session unless they are the love child of Carl Hester and Adelinde Cornelissen?
Armas has been passed as sound, but I for one can certainly see the old issue with his hind that hasn't quite worked itself strong yet. Forgive me for I have no qualification!
rosita
Well-Known Member
No. I rarely comment. you don't need to be a vet to see when a horse isn't right behind...you need a vet to diagnose why.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
Rosita, I do fully understand why you would question the soundness of the horse behind. Pretty much all of us have commented on it at some point but, we have changed the record because we are no all so blind to the fact that there are some issues that need to be worked through and not ignored.
Yes, I said it...sometimes a horses soundness issues can only be improved by the horse being worked and where there is no pain or damage being done it is absolutely right to crack on.
Questioning something is a good thing and nobody would criticise you for that. However, making such an erroneous and inflexible judgement is foolish at best given that even if you were a vet, you have not seen this horse and you do not know the details.
If you want to be taken seriously, be a bit more considered and measured in the validity of your comments.
rosita
Well-Known Member
Echo Billie1007. I do probably come over rude but quite frankly I'm cross. Probably too blunt.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
I am pretty sure James has had to repeat many times in multiple threads that the horse has had treatment and is passed fit for work. He has also mentioned further treatment as well so I don't think it's anything that is being ignored.
Mongoose11
Well-Known Member
_GG_
Well-Known Member
Probably not a good thing to echo me! I haven't gone down too well on here
That should be past tense Billie :wink3:
I'm not doing a very good job of icing my foot am I? May as well just watch the video now!
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
My feeling is when and if the horse is straighter it will either resolve or get worse at some point with the increased work , I have been down this exact road myself it's a long tale but as the horse straightened with the training and lot of physio the funny hind leg that I was worried about so much and sent had a fair bit of money trying to pin down an issue just resolved .
In the UK I would have a good physio working hard on this horse ,but James has said in the past you just can't get one in France like you can here.