Session number 14 collected trot & passage beginning.

Interesting that you say this is French terminology, this was terminology was used by an English PRE stud owner whilst discussing my horse who lives in the UK ? Answers on a post card.
 
That is extremely rude and for the most part not true. Please forgive me if I ignore your posts from here on in.
 
Armas said:
I just wanted to clarify a couple of points. The trainers adaptation is 99.9% her own doing, I make the odd suggestion such as removing the flash which she agreed was not necessary.
We have discussed the issues she rides she does what she thinks is necessary if I don't agree with some thing. She has a good understanding of Armas and his issues and is carrying out the work as she see fits. We may not agree with her methods or the structure how ever no trainer is the same and we all do things in different ways.
She is working on maintaining contact no matter where Armas puts his head BTV or up the contact is kept and evasion is not allowed.
The last two sessions have been indoors as the main arena was to wet. The small arena is not ideal hence she changed the work.
The collection will help with engagement. Armas tends to 'run' rather than trot we are working to changing that. The difference lies in the moment of suspension. A balanced/cadenced trot has a long moment of suspension (think of Passage as the ultimate in cadence ) and comes from a trot where the hind legs step under and lift the shoulders. All trot work should be towards that aim.

I agree it's not perfect, but he is enjoying the challenge I see that, and is working in a far better frame (of body and mind) I see improvement, and am pleased with how he's progressing.Rome wasn't built in a day, or that there is good tension as well as bad tension. Top athletes wouldn't get anywhere if they didn't use their muscles with a degree of tension, neither would horses. This is not a horse being asked to bumble along on a loose rein, the work he is doing is challenging him physically
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I understand all of that and as you know, I have praised this trainer heavily where I have felt she has deserved it. Good to know that the changes are coming from her, thank you for that.

What you mention about cadence...the moment of suspension is extremely important. As you quite rightly say, the moment of suspension come from engagement, but I just don't see much of it. I totally agree, his overall frame is much much better...I do think he likes to be challenged as well, but I just think it was carried on for to long. Like I said, I don't even think his tucking BTV in this session is him evading anything, he looks much happier in the contact and the tucking appears to stem from his needing a quick break. But...if the hind end is engaged, the front will lift and become light. Armas is not light up front in the majority of the collected work. He was at the start of it, hence my comments on how beneficial I feel it would be to limit the amount of collected steps to just maybe 5 minutes towards the end of the session. The further along the session goes with the collected questions, the heavier the shoulders and chest become...what may be seen as cadence behind can be quickly ruled out by looking at the quality of the overall picture.

I wouldn't want to see him bumble along on a loose rein James...of course there is a certain amount of tension in training a horse new things, but that tension is normally mental tension that has a physical outlet...not physical tension of its own accord. Armas doesn't look mentally bothered by the work to be honest...but he is looking tense in his back and neck towards the end of the session and it is down purely to the fact that he just doesn't yet have the strength to support this kind of work.

Your goals when looking for a trainer were to build up his strength and top line and get him engaging himself behind. It's not a quick process. Rome wasn't built in a day is exactly it...so if you understand that, you can't expect to do work that requires muscles that don't grow overnight either. He's fit enough for it, but not strong enough for it...hope that makes sense.

Iberian horses are more capable of producing this more advanced sooner than warmbloods in my experience, but it is still only after a period of time, usually a good year or two of solid foundation work where the overall strength of the horse is built up sufficiently.

I'm not attacking the trainer...as you know, I view each video on its own merits. I comment on what I see, not what I want to see or think or expect to see, but what is in front of me. Because of that, one day I love it, another day...not so much. This is just a not so much day.

The basic rule of training IMO is that you keep it all harmonious. You strive to have a partnership where you work together and where the horse understands and enjoys the horse. Without exception to date, I have found that this is better achieved when new lessons are introduced gradually, repeating until the basics are understood, then moving on.

Personally, I use a method that I have talked about on this forum before. It is a 10 point method. This is something I thought about as a child when I first started breaking and training youngsters. It is based on never asking a horse for a value of more than 10 in any schooling session.

For a young horse just established in walk, trot and canter...the basic paces would have a value of zero. But...anything other than basic paces around the school or on a 20m circle would be a question for a baby horse, therefore a value would be added. So...serpentines where changing direction and bend are added would have a value of 3-4 depending on the horse as it's a lot for a young horse to cope with...tighter turns, keeping correct through the spine, maintaining bend, straightening up across the centre line etc...it's work, so has a high value. For a horse that is a few years into training and can do serpentines blindfold...they would have a zero value. So...baby horse would be warmed up, asked for a few serpentines until it got it right and as soon as it understood and got it right, it would be allowed to relax by going back to a zero value exercise. Then, it might be asked to improve transitions. Difficult for a baby horse lacking balance and muscle, so they have a higher value when trying to make improvements...again value 3-4. So in one session, I can ask for serpentines and then better transitions and that only leaves me a couple of points. They would be in the form of teaching a square halt. Not physically demanding, but new, so a value of 2 points.

In a horse established in all basic work, all that basic work would have a zero value. Recently added work that a horse understood but was not yet established in would carry a low value and new work like changed, medium or extended paces or collection etc would carry a high value. The recently learned work would carry a low value of 1-2, the new work would carry a higher value of 3-6 depending on the demands and the horse. If you never go over 10, you never overface the horse.

I hope that makes sense. I have explained it much better in the past. I think most people do it naturally to be honest.

Transfer that logic onto this session with Armas and he is given lots of zero value work. But...the high value work is taken well past the point of understanding and into the point where it is asked for so many time, the value has shot up to about 40. I genuinely believe that if the first 5-6 times he had shown lovely baby steps, he was rewarded and then moved on to something low value...you would see massive improvements in the next session. When they get it right and we reward straight away, they enjoy it and look forward to doing it again. When we ask too much, we can make them sour to it and they can start to resent it.

Hope it makes sense.
 
Armas said:
Interestingly that is exactly what some one said about the comments on this thread on Facebook ! I do not confuse looking pretty with work. It would be very interesting for some of the critics to post a couple of videos of them ridding a collected horse to show me how its done.
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Love it when you do this. Throw your toys out and say 'right you do it then'. We aren't criticising YOUR ability to ride James! I ride a common cob, but that does not stop me being able to have a fairly reasoned response here. Are you determined to always make it so childish - as if your 'comeback' is any kind of defence!?
 
twiggy2 said:
really? so is this, for goodness sake back off-it is not your horse and you are being offensive and rude
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At what point did I suggest it was my horse? I'm not sure I understand your point. Plenty of others have suggested that James sould listen to others, open is eyes, wondered if he is sleeping with the trainer, is determined to break his horse...and I'm offensive and rude?
 
Oh dear. Personal attack! I had better bow out then... Oh erm, I forgot it was an open forum. I haven't attacked anyone. Since when has disagreeing and suggesting that someone doesn't know quite what they are saying an 'attack'?
 
James - so you don't view with your own eyes nor think with your own brain, now what you type here is straight off someone else's keyboard. Much of what you have typed here today has come straight off your facebook page and copied almost verbatim. THIS is why I don't think you know what you are seeing or saying!

Ok. Ok so now I seem like a stalker, but -I'm not happy to be the bad guy here (as per) when I have good reason to feel what I do.
 
Discussing terminology is irrelevant. They are globally recognised terms and terms I have heard used by the best trainers and bog standard riders alike from all over the world.

Billie, I don't think James is throwing his toys out of the pram. Writing a few positive posts doesn't change the fact that you find it quite easy to be really quite personal at times. Some of your comments are just plain rude, so don't be surprised when they don't get a great response. Some of your points are very valid...but the delivery means they are often lost :smile3:
In respect of why I post in such detail...

I love horses, I love learning about them and I have gained a great deal from these Armas threads.
James loves his horse...that is clear, so as long as he is striving to improve, I will invest my time giving my opinions. They may not always be right, they may not always be constructive or useful....but the great thing about this forum is that you can get such a variety of responses and from that can come some great ideas and solutions to problems.

If James still keeps putting the effort in, so will I. This is a beautiful horse and the task ahead of it is a big one....but he is getting there and this trainer is helping in the most part. I won't pull my punches when I think things aren't great, hence todays comments. I will also always give praise where it is due.

I think we are all learning more about horses from these threads and that can NEVER be a bad thing :smile3:
 
I agree GG, I don't come across well on here. James gets info from a 'wise one' before commenting on here in response to anyone. It's just weird and then I get accused of being rude and offensive when I say he isn't even forming his own view.
 
J - I have followed Armas' story since he arrived on the transporter in all that snow. I'm sure many on here have, and remember your absolute excitement at having such a stunning horse to ride in such beautiful surroundings. I have seen your posts turn unpleasant and nasty, and lots of different views and observations. Out of them all, GG really, really seems to understand what is, or is not, (as the case may be) happening. I am not going to make any comments whatsoever on how Armas is progressing, or whether the trainer is improving or ruining him. What I will ask is 'Do you remember why you bought him?' Did you buy him to enjoy, yourself, and ride in superb surroundings? Pleasure rides, and local 'fun' things? Or did you buy him to watch other people ride and compete him? If it was for you - and I think it was, originally - of course a well-schooled, responsive, obedient horse is more of a pleasure to ride than an ar*e. Walk, trot, canter - upwards and downwards transitions - ability to leg yield round parked vehicles - rein back/turn on the forehand for gates. Not passage/piaffe, or any other 'classical' movements. It is only my very personal opinion, but I think you should have some simple, unpressured time doing what you first intended. If Armas continues to be 'developed' into a 'top dressage horse', unless you develop accordingly into a 'top dressage rider', you may find he is schooled far beyond you, and you won't be able to enjoy any of the things you wanted to do. The buttons will be so very precise, unless you can press them perfectly, he won't understand a thing you say, and you will have lost your horse. Armas won't care that he isn't 'fulfilling his potential' (I hate that phrase :( ). Armas will look stunning, even if his outline isn't perfect, and his head isn't in precisely the 'right' place. The best video I have seen recently was of the young girl riding him, and having fun together, which is what I thought you wanted to do yourself. FWIW, I think Armas, and you, would benefit greatly from a complete break from the school, and training, and developing. Go and have some fun, and relax, the pair of you. It certainly won't do any harm, and may well be the making of you both. :)
 
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dunkley said:
J - I have followed Armas' story since he arrived on the transporter in all that snow. I'm sure many on here have, and remember your absolute excitement at having such a stunning horse to ride is such beautiful surroundings. I have seen your posts turn unpleasant and nasty, and lots of different views and observations. Out of them all, GG really, really seems to understand what is, or is not, (as the case may be) happening. I am not going to make any comments whatsoever on how Armas is progressing, or whether the trainer is improving or ruining him. What I will ask is 'Do you remember why you bought him?' Did you buy him to enjoy, yourself, and ride in superb surroundings? Pleasure rides, and local 'fun' things? Or did you buy him to watch other people ride and compete him? If it was for you - and I think it was, originally - of course a well-schooled, responsive, obedient horse is more of a pleasure to ride than an ar*e. Walk, trot, canter - upwards and downwards transitions - ability to leg yield round parked vehicles - rein back/turn on the forehand for gates. Not passage/piaffe, or any other 'classical' movements. It is only my very personal opinion, but I think you should have some simple, unpressured time doing what you first intended. If Armas continues to be 'developed' into a 'top dressage horse', unless you develop accordingly into a 'top dressage rider', you may find he is schooled far beyond you, and you won't be able to enjoy any of the things you wanted to do. The buttons will be so very precise, unless you can press them perfectly, he won't understand a thing you say, and you will have lost your horse. Armas won't care that he isn't 'fulfilling his potential' (I hate that phrase :( ). Armas will look stunning, even if his outline isn't perfect, and his head isn't in precisely the 'right' place. The best video I have seen recently was of the young girl riding him, and having fun together, which is what I thought you wanted to do yourself. FWIW, I think Armas, and you, would benefit greatly from a complete break from the school, and training, and developing. Go and have some fun, and relax, the pair of you. It certainly won't do any harm, and may well be the making of you both. :)
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I love my horse and I enjoy the schooling as much as I enjoy the ridding. Today for example was an organised ride 20 other horses and 26km covered. lots of walking trotting and flat out galloping and generally having fun. Boy do we have fun such as the recent trip to the sea side for 4 days !
Its not just Armas education but mine too the trainer is working on corrective training and improvement, once we have achieved certain goals I will be partaking in the schooling me in the saddle the trainer bellowing at me.
I am indenting to compete him however I equally get as much joy from watching him compete. I wanted to take the time to thank you for your post as it comes across as interested and trying to help rather than attack.
 
i find these videos so interesting - i could happily watch people ride for hours on end. IMO this session is at its best at about 14 to 15 mins into it. the rider has discovered a way to ask the horse to come out from BTV (I think BTV is actually a very hard problem to fix) and the horse understands that signal now. also good i think is that the rider is willing to sacrifice apparent 'prettiness' and to break that to get something better. technically i dont think she is a bad rider (though i have a preference for a more upright less driving seat - there are man varying styles of riding which are effective done well) BUT I don't think she has a good feel for when to push, when to reward and when to stop. Sometimes i think she gets this right - eg she often waited until the horse was more correct before making a downward transition. but sometimes i think she gets it very wrong and pushes for something new when the horse is still struggling with the last things. I think GG's no more than 10 theory is interesting (thanks for sharing) i was wondering if i do that myself and I hope i do. Though I am not really that qualified to comment as my current horse is a 15hh coloured who came from the gypsies and who would not know a dickybird about collection - working prelim / novice but will go further in time. I never understand and often admire how professionals can get results so fast - whilst I have trained 4 horses, each to a level I was pleased with, it has always taken me years not weeks or months. i guess that is partly the difference between professionals and keen amateurs riding as a hobby after work! keep posting the vids and comments its all fascinating
 
_GG_ said:
Discussing terminology is irrelevant. They are globally recognised terms and terms I have heard used by the best trainers and bog standard riders alike from all over the world.

Billie, I don't think James is throwing his toys out of the pram. Writing a few positive posts doesn't change the fact that you find it quite easy to be really quite personal at times. Some of your comments are just plain rude, so don't be surprised when they don't get a great response. Some of your points are very valid...but the delivery means they are often lost :smile3:
In respect of why I post in such detail...

I love horses, I love learning about them and I have gained a great deal from these Armas threads.
James loves his horse...that is clear, so as long as he is striving to improve, I will invest my time giving my opinions. They may not always be right, they may not always be constructive or useful....but the great thing about this forum is that you can get such a variety of responses and from that can come some great ideas and solutions to problems.

If James still keeps putting the effort in, so will I. This is a beautiful horse and the task ahead of it is a big one....but he is getting there and this trainer is helping in the most part. I won't pull my punches when I think things aren't great, hence todays comments. I will also always give praise where it is due.

I think we are all learning more about horses from these threads and that can NEVER be a bad thing :smile3:
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Spot on! I've stopped commenting on these posts, but I do speak to James, and what shines through to me is his love for, and dedication to his horse. He finds the process of watching Armas' training fascinating, and has learned and developed himself as a result. I also admire his fortitude in dealing with the negativity he experiences on virtually every thread he posts. I wouldn't cope with having my riding or training slated constantly (although it would probably be justified!)
The way this horse is trained may not be to everyone's taste, but the way others ride their horses may not be to his. I support James purely because he genuinely wants to learn and improve himself and his horse. He has repeatedly stated that he will change trainers if he doesn't feel his current choice is doing the job, but he is giving her a chance, and I, for one, think she is getting there. This is not a baby, he's a mature, fit animal, and his strength/ability to perform the more advanced movements is coming along. It may not be pretty yet, but he is starting to offer her what she's asking for - and that's progress.There are some very nice moments in this video - just moments at this point, but consider how he was going a few weeks ago, and I think it IS possible to see that they are getting there.
 
Wow. I really hope the trainer is oblivious to her trial by HHO because she's damned either way really. If she changes, she's damned. If she doesn't change, she's damned. I really think it's brutally unfair of some posters to condemn so wholeheartedly when it's very difficult to really tell what is happening for certain from a few videos and short comments from the trainer.


Billie1007 said:
I agree GG, I don't come across well on here. James gets info from a 'wise one' before commenting on here in response to anyone. It's just weird and then I get accused of being rude and offensive when I say he isn't even forming his own view.
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Isn't this how any of us form our own views though? we all have to learn from someone, whether we take on board their views in total or pick and choose, or disregard them completely? I try and learn something from everyone I speak to, watch and am taught by, even if it's just 'I don't agree'. Sometimes that means *one* begins to understand a new concept or aspect of training and it's not wrong IMO to then use the correct word to describe that! :biggrin3:

Anyway. Back to the actual thread - GG, I agree with you about the points system and that's also how I work (although have to say it's not as conscious as that!!) I said earlier that I would not personally have pushed the 'collection' (back to that in a sec) for as long BUT if he felt like he was on the verge of understanding a question - it's a possibility - then there is some validity in doing that.

As for the 'collection' & passagey steps... well, I think it's *just* possible that there is a language/translation issue here and maybe we aren't getting the full story in the brief comments from her. From her own discussion at the end I thought it sounded like she wasn't aiming for passage itself - I don't think she's stupid to the point of not being aware that the horse is not ready to actually passage. I saw the collected steps as more akin to an extended half halt. To the point where the horse waited and accepted the aid, and was then allowed forward again.

From the video of her riding the bay wb (?) in a competition that was on a very early thread, I think this shows that she knows compressing the trot is not the way to create collection. That horse's collected trot was more forward than anything Armas has offered to date.

I will enter a health warning to this post at this point -again, I'm not defending her without question and I think the next session will be telling :wink3: BUT I do think the attack backlash is to a great extent unjustified.
 
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Billie1007 said:
What does the 'wise one' think of the thread's recent posts James? Or are you going to ignore the fact that I had evidence to back up my point about you not thinking for yourself? I have no idea what drives me to behave like this on your threads! ARRRrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhh!
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Who is this "wise one" you refer to Billie?
 
Auslander said:
what shines through to me is his love for, and dedication to his horse. He finds the process of watching Armas' training fascinating, and has learned and developed himself as a result. I also admire his fortitude in dealing with the negativity he experiences on virtually every thread he posts. I wouldn't cope with having my riding or training slated constantly
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^^this :biggrin3:

I think what's been really fascinating to me, and what keeps drawing me back time and again is that it's very much a warts & all view of a horse's progress.

It would have been easier to edit out the ugly bits and pretend that training a horse is all a beautifully easy process with no difficult sections. But what could any of us hope to learn from that? Only, perhaps, that we shouldn't be trying to ride our own horses if we can't also have 100% successful sessions every time we ride :rolleyes:
 
Billie1007 said:
Oh Hi Aus :) funny you should ask ;)
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I don't really appreciate being made to sound like James' puppetmaster thanks. So what if he asks for advice/opinions - takes them on board and then adopts/adapt them to develop his own understanding. That's how I developed my own way of doing things, and as a teacher, I'm surprised you attach such negativity to someone who embraces opportunities to learn from people who have a little more experience than him.
 
Yes it is unjustified Milliepops!

I was very careful to not say passage or piaffe. I simply used the term collected steps because that is all I see that the trainer has asked for. I haven't listened to the comments as we have friends staying for the week (although this is a great escape...lol) BUT...I agree and I don't think she is actually trying for either piaffe or passage. Just the beginnings of collection.

She isn't doing it through force either which is what most have criticised her for. My only issue has been that I personally don't feel that the tension was good for Armas towards the end.

I also agree that when you know that the breakthrough is just around the corner, it is worth continuing to get there. The only thing about that is, I think if it is taking too long, it is worth considering that there is a reason it is not being fully understood yet, so take a step back and try another approach kind of thing.

I think, yet again, a lot of assumptions have been made. Assumptions never achieve anything of any value.
 
My point is that I suggested James wasn't thinking for himself or talking for himself and I was lambasted. Then I spot a post that is someone else's words almost verbatim wich kind of proved my point. Of COURSE we learn from others and yes I am well aware of how that works, but for weeks I have been suggesting that James should find his own opinion. Something he still finds it difficult to do! To naively suggest that I don't understand how learning works is just silly. Yes we learn from others, but my very specific point was that James wasn't forming his own ideas and then it was nicely demonstrated.
The first part of your post is moot Aus, because I have never suggested he shouldn't learn from others, take their view and knowledge...
 
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milliepops said:
As for the 'collection' & passagey steps... well, I think it's *just* possible that there is a language/translation issue here and maybe we aren't getting the full story in the brief comments from her. From her own discussion at the end I thought it sounded like she wasn't aiming for passage itself - I don't think she's stupid to the point of not being aware that the horse is not ready to actually passage. I saw the collected steps as more akin to an extended half halt. To the point where the horse waited and accepted the aid, and was then allowed forward again.
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My thoughts too - I don't think she is actually after high school collection. I think she is aiming to make the movement smaller while increasing leg and hand aids in an effort to make him more accepting of them. However, I only watched the first 10 mins of the video when first posted though so I will watch the rest now...
 
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Billie1007 said:
Then I spot a post that is someone else's words almost verbatim wich kind of proved my point.
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Again I think this is a little unfair, it's not an exam so plagiarism isn't really a problem :wink3: Very often we see posts on here that are copied from another website, or transcribed from what a trainer has told someone. Doesn't make it less valid as the poster's own opinion just because it was someone else's words :)
 
Why is this becoming about James? These threads are about a horse and his journey. A journey which even with the best rider in the world that we all think is wonderful would not be without its ups and downs and moments of unpleasantness.

James using words he has read from someone else is totally irrelevant. He may think the exact same thing...yet see it written in a way that is more concise or easily understood, so use those words instead of his own. I just don't see that it is constructive or will be in any way beneficial to the horse for this kind of chat to continue.
 
Billie1007 said:
My point is that I suggested James wasn't thinking for himself or talking for himself and I was lambasted. Then I spot a post that is someone else's words almost verbatim wich kind of proved my point. Of COURSE we learn from others and yes I am well aware of how that works, but for weeks I have been suggesting that James should find his own opinion. Something he still finds it difficult to do! To naively suggest that I don't understand how learning works is just silly. Yes we learn from others, but my very specific point was that James wasn't forming his own ideas and then it was nicely demonstrated.
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But he is not, and has never professed to be particularly experienced, and he is taking on what others (not just me) say, and developing his own opinions from watching the videos, and relating what others have told him to what he sees. He cannot be expected, at his level, to be able to form opinions completely independently. He's got to follow the path, pick the flowers, and kick the poo out of the way - I've been up and down that path a fair few times, and only now am I happy to form my own opinions without external assistance, stick by them if someone tells me I'm wrong, and admit to myself when I am actually wrong.
 
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What I'd like to see is all you 'armchair enthusiasts' sit on Armas. I have no idea what's going on (apart from the fact that I would shoot all the noisy sparrows in the vids)! OP, you must be a total masochist! If any one of you aren't sat on that horse your input is largely irrelevant. Yes - I understand the video is out there for scrutiny - but holy crap - apart from the fact that they are putting themselves out there, do you think you could do better? Well you can't because you aren't sat on Armas. So .. for all the experts out there, why don't you offer your services for Armas' owner? Who knows, you might be able to earn some pocket money :D
 
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