Session number 14 collected trot & passage beginning.

So DG, are we suggesting then that only an instructor could recognise a tense horse, a horse that is rushing or BTV? Or can only an instructor or higher level rider suggest a change of bit, a stronger outside rein... Blah blah blah - the list is endless. I presume the answer must be no! My response is a basic one based on MY opinion and MY experience - that experience allows me to see he is unbalanced and imo not ready for some of what she attempts. It allows me to see that he was confused in the early days when she asked too much of him. My experience allowed me to question why she braced against him in the canter. My experience has not allowed me to give any answers other than to simplify, to back up a little, to ask for less, to allow him to go forwards without asking too much else. I don't think those things are misaligned with my experience.
 
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Billie1007 said:
So DG, are we suggesting then that only an instructor could recognise a tense horse, a horse that is rushing or BTV. Or can only an instructor or level rider suggest a change of bit, a stronger outside rein... Blah blah blah - the list is endless. I presume the answer must be no!
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No, but people with more experience of something will understand better the nuances of a situation.

You ride a cob Billie....I haven't ridden many cobs in the last 15 years. If this thread were about a cob, I would give more credence to your opinions than someone who only rode Iberians. Not because they couldn't see the obvious or even the minute details, but because your understanding through actual experience of cobs would be more beneficial and give you more perspective. You would know them better, you would be better able to understand and comment.
 
I find it very interesting just to read the various comments from people whose opinion I do respect on here and it is certainly interesting to watch her training. I do have to say that I don't understand the I'd like to see those with negative comments ride this horse.. as remembering the very original videos when he went to try him etc he was quite novice himself at the time (and did get some queries over whether a PRE would therefore be right for him). Fair play to him for going ahead and clearly having fun with Armas with the group rides etc and enjoying him but I just don't get where that comment comes from. (I can also therefore understand why people perhaps question it when James is getting into discussions on the technicalities of dressage/classical riding).
 
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_GG_ said:
No, but people with more experience of something will understand better the nuances of a situation.

You ride a cob Billie....I haven't ridden many cobs in the last 15 years. If this thread were about a cob, I would give more credence to your opinions than someone who only rode Iberians. Not because they couldn't see the obvious or even the minute details, but because your understanding through actual experience of cobs would be more beneficial and give you more perspective. You would know them better, you would be better able to understand and comment.
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you talk a lot of sense, if you would like more experience of cob crosses you are welcome to train mine and me
 
_GG_ said:
No, but people with more experience of something will understand better the nuances of a situation.

You ride a cob Billie....I haven't ridden many cobs in the last 15 years. If this thread were about a cob, I would give more credence to your opinions than someone who only rode Iberians. Not because they couldn't see the obvious or even the minute details, but because your understanding through actual experience of cobs would be more beneficial and give you more perspective. You would know them better, you would be better able to understand and comment.
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But I haven't sought to comment on the nuances of the breed. I have commented on the basics of her work - the rushing, the early inability to allow release, the braced seat, the strong legs which seemed to confuse him. The charging around while he is still unbalanced, the attempted collection when he is STILL unbalanced. This is horsemanship not 'iberianship'. Deffo just invented my own word.
 
Billie1007 said:
So DG, are we suggesting then that only an instructor could recognise a tense horse, a horse that is rushing or BTV? Or can only an instructor or higher level rider suggest a change of bit, a stronger outside rein... Blah blah blah - the list is endless. I presume the answer must be no! My response is a basic one based on MY opinion and MY experience - that experience allows me to see he is unbalanced and imo not ready for some of what she attempts. It allows me to see that he was confused in the early days when she asked too much of him. My experience allowed me to question why she braced against him in the canter. My experience has not allowed me to give any answers other than to simplify, to back up a little, to ask for less, to allow him to go forwards without asking too much else. I don't think those things are misaligned with my experience.
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There's a difference though IMO between noticing something & how it appears to your own eyes, and then seeing the same issue with additional experience. Doesn't mean one person shouldn't notice and point out a problem, but from my own point of view, I would then look around and see what other people had to say about it, rather than sticking with my own limited knowledge.

This is a general point Billie, I'm really not wanting to single you out. It's just how I behave myself when I'm seeing something I don't have direct experience of. and you'll notice from my own posts there is often a lot of self doubt written into them, even when I am speaking from experience! :p

I still don't see why you think she braced against him in canter btw, I watched the first few videos over again and still don't see bracing. I see great stability and a very secure seat. I don't see bracing :)
 
twiggy2 said:
you talk a lot of sense, if you would like more experience of cob crosses you are welcome to train mine and me
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Happy to if you're close to me :)

I do ride a Section D regularly, but I have never considered them cobs as such :)

The last proper cob I rode, Mr. Pink...was a chunky 14.3 HW and I really could not be rrrsed to tack him up. I just jumped on bareback in the school as he was only allowed to walk, so off we went. I rode bareback from age 3 for 18 months before riding with a saddle and it is amazing for developing super stickability (shame it doesn't work when your horse goes over the vertical :rolleyes3: )...anyway, I stopped to chat and he did a full on, all over shake. He is a round as he is tall and was also fat at the time so no discernible shape...I almost fell off laughing as I forgot how awesome cobs are. If that happened on either of my two, I'd have just sat there thanks to their withers and defined shoulders. Not Mr. Pink....nothing there...just him shaking and me looking like a ragdoll, lol. He was hogged too!!! I had to laugh. I only felt better when his owner said she had three times fallen off him when he'd done that with a saddle on :smile3:
 
Billie1007 said:
So DG, are we suggesting then that only an instructor could recognise a tense horse, a horse that is rushing or BTV? Or can only an instructor or higher level rider suggest a change of bit, a stronger outside rein... Blah blah blah - the list is endless. I presume the answer must be no! My response is a basic one based on MY opinion and MY experience - that experience allows me to see he is unbalanced and imo not ready for some of what she attempts. It allows me to see that he was confused in the early days when she asked too much of him. My experience allowed me to question why she braced against him in the canter. My experience has not allowed me to give any answers other than to simplify, to back up a little, to ask for less, to allow him to go forwards without asking too much else. I don't think those things are misaligned with my experience.
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Fair enough .. you have a lot more experience than me. Are you riding Armas or am I being a little stupid?
 
Billie1007 said:
But I haven't sought to comment on the nuances of the breed. I have commented on the basics of her work - the rushing, the early inability to allow release, the braced seat, the strong legs which seemed to confuse him. The charging around while he is still unbalanced, the attempted collection when he is STILL unbalanced. This is horsemanship not 'iberianship'. Deffo just invented my own word.
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I only used the cob breed for you to try and make it easier to understand...my point was about the work, not the breed. Not an attack on you Billie....but just to explain that people that have more experience also have more perspective and might know a bit more about what might be going on that's all.

By the way...I LOVE new words, I am definitely going to remember iberianship!
 
Billie1007 said:
But I haven't sought to comment on the nuances of the breed. I have commented on the basics of her work - the rushing, the early inability to allow release, the braced seat, the strong legs which seemed to confuse him. The charging around while he is still unbalanced, the attempted collection when he is STILL unbalanced. This is horsemanship not 'iberianship'. Deffo just invented my own word.
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OK, here then, I have an issue with what you see;).

I see plenty of times that she releases him. As GG has said earlier perhaps she misses some, but 'inability' is a bit of a blanket term.
I still don't see a braced seat, I don't know what makes you think she's bracing apart from the fact that she's not moving around in the saddle, but that would not be desirable.
I don't think she has been using her legs strongly. Effectively, but not strongly - no kicking or jabbing, they look loose at his sides almost all of the time. I don't think she can be clamped on either or else she would not sit so well.
I also don't see charging around (on purpose) - the horse steps out of balance sometimes which is different, and I think several of us have agreed that it's not true collection she's attempted here.

Iberianship is a great word though :D
 
MP - I think you may be missing something. This is all my opinion, it is formed with my experience and I haven't said anything that others haven't also said. I'm ok with looking at something and applying my knowledge whether limited or not. I can only comment from my own view which is what anyone else here is doing. Thing is, I'm ok with people disagreeing with me. That's allowed :) it doesn't mean I flex and change what I see. I have seen positive change and I've recognised it when I've seen it. It does mean that I look again with some new info in mind, but then dismiss it and return to my original view if I feel it's appropriate. Just as James is doing and being defended for doing so.


My chopped comments in my last few posts are comments I have made at various points throughout the 14 session 'journey'. Not continous features, but features I commented on at different points.
 
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_GG_ said:
Happy to if you're close to me :)

I do ride a Section D regularly, but I have never considered them cobs as such :)

The last proper cob I rode, Mr. Pink...was a chunky 14.3 HW and I really could not be rrrsed to tack him up. I just jumped on bareback in the school as he was only allowed to walk, so off we went. I rode bareback from age 3 for 18 months before riding with a saddle and it is amazing for developing super stickability (shame it doesn't work when your horse goes over the vertical :rolleyes3: )...anyway, I stopped to chat and he did a full on, all over shake. He is a round as he is tall and was also fat at the time so no discernible shape...I almost fell off laughing as I forgot how awesome cobs are. If that happened on either of my two, I'd have just sat there thanks to their withers and defined shoulders. Not Mr. Pink....nothing there...just him shaking and me looking like a ragdoll, lol. He was hogged too!!! I had to laugh. I only felt better when his owner said she had three times fallen off him when he'd done that with a saddle on :smile3:
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unfortunately i live miles away but if i ever make it round your way with ned in tow i may take you up on that, mine has a cob head on her shoulders but looks possibly like cob x new forest
 
Billie1007 said:
MP - I think you may be missing something. This is all my opinion, it is formed with my experience and I haven't said anything that others haven't also said. I'm ok with looking at something and applying my knowledge whether limited or not. I can only comment from my own view which is what anyone else here is doing. Thing is, I'm ok with people disagreeing with me. That's allowed :) it doesn't mean I flex and change what I see. I have seen positive change and I've recognised it when I've seen it. It does mean that I look again with some new info in mind, but then dismiss it and return to my original view if I feel it's appropriate. Just as James is doing and being defended for doing so.


My chopped comments in my last few posts are comments I have made at various points throughout the 14 session 'journey'. Not continous features, but features I commented on at different points.
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OK, well that is where we are different I suppose. If I know I'm looking at something without much experience, I will more often than not take on board what more experienced people are saying. If I fundamentally disagree with them then I'd ask them to explain their reasoning, and then if I still disagreed I might try to learn or develop myself, to the point where I could explain my disagreement back in the same terms :)

I accept that your comments are from various points, I still can't agree with them I'm afraid. I think I've addressed most of them in the relevant threads from my own POV :)
 
Why should he not chart the journey he is embarking on on the internet?? Plenty of others do it, and to have a warts and all version is refreshing! Many just post when they win/do well (which is fine) but having the "bad days" which happens to us all (probably more than the good days!) is equally as relevant.
Q
 
*wonders whether to ship the welshie (currently in somerset) back to wilts with me next weekend ;) ;) ).

Ps I'm not sure GG should be in charge of the word for cobmanship given her previous inabilities to remain on :D
 
_GG_ said:
Well I am usually there twice a year visiting four different lots of friends all over, so next visit, I will PM you.

Oh, and I have a really good memory for stuff like this :)
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that would be great I can show my lack of riding ability after too many years out of the saddle, for every ones information there will be NO warts and all video of my riding

cobmanship I like that and if i had it i would be proud
 
ester said:
*wonders whether to ship the welshie (currently in somerset) back to wilts with me next weekend ;) ;) ).

Ps I'm not sure GG should be in charge of the word for cobmanship given her previous inabilities to remain on :D
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Ah....I DID remain on....just. Twas the owner that fell off three times!

I have always wanted to get myself a proper job cob. Just for fun. I spend so much time fixing problems and training and dealing with all sorts of horsey attitudes that sometimes it's nice to just sit on something just for the sake of going for a ride and having fun. I do have Fly for that, but she still likes to test me every now and then and see if I can sit to a 360 degree triple twist, double flip somersault death spiral in a dressage saddle when I am daydreaming about Ben & Jerrys cookie dough ice cream (which I have just nipped to the shop and am currently enjoying).

I do love Welshies :)
 
my apologies!

I love him too sometimes ;) - and so do my mum and sis although most weeks I get some tale of how terrible h has been (clearly it was his fault my sister dropped her phone while they were arguing over who should get to hold the hosepipe...)
 
No cobmanship allowed.

CobmanIANship on the other hand is perfectly acceptable.

As is Welsharianism, Fellfallory, Connemaranarmoury, Clydesdalerwalery and Shetlandeffery :smile3:
 
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