Should I hit the panic button?

palo1 said:
Blimey - I understand why some vets might request a safe place but the good vets I know are calm, pragmatic and not remotely flaky. You are right in that your normal vet would be more supportive of you. :) Emergencies happen and you dealt with it but ordinarily a good vet wouldn't find your situation difficult I don't think.
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agree with this. I think you just need to have some time of no dramas for you to just breathe and process all that’s happened lately. It’s a lot for anyone to cope with! So far, you’ve made all the correct decisions. Somewhere down the line you’ll have to make some more, but hopefully by then you’ll have the time to think things through properly.
 
If the yard owner is pressing for you to move them because she needs the field for sheep just say put the sheep in with them. I cant see any reason why not and its a learning experience for mare and foal. Foal is only a week old! mare is bound to be protective of the foal, its just natural! There is a great book by Sarah Weston, No fear no force. its really good for unhandled horses and might give you some tips. Why not just give yourself a bit of time to step back and just let things be for a couple of weeks. Let mare and foal settle. Give yourself a break.
 
Sounds like you got the nervous duty vet that day - which is a shame as it sounds as if there was just more fuss than there needed to be.

When a friend's mare foaled, we had to lead them along a quiet lane for a couple of hundred yards to get to the field - twice a day!! One of us led the mare and the other had a towel round the foal's chest, the ends of which could then be held with one hand at the withers while the other hand guided the bum. As he was a lively, little b.....r, this at least enabled us to keep control of him without a headcollar when he decided he should be in front!! The secret was to keep the pace the same, as one racing ahead sets alarm bells going for the mare.
If the foal responds to your OH then perhaps he could be on foal duty for this??

As for you, I don't have a "towel" solution!!! You really do need to just take some time. Worrying about what needs to be done in a few weeks' time is not helping the here and now when you just need to be putting the very basics in place. And if you rush those basics then you are storing up trouble for the future. Hermosa may be letting you headcollar her and lead her round the field but I guess she is not "learning" much from that. At the moment she is just too foal-focused - as she should be if the foal is to grow up confident and well-adjusted. I would also guess that the foal is responding more to your OH as his stress and anxiety levels are probably way below yours!! You know how they can even pick up on anxious breathing from us.

As everyone on here has said - endlessly - try and just take some time to relax and enjoy them. You will make better decisions that way - for all of you. Lecture ends.;)
 
Cheeky Chestnut said:
Who ever that vet is is not acting very professionally. A vet cannot refuse to treat an animal. Cows and sheep aren’t halter trained. Do they refuse to treat them? I get its a safety thing however they have no right to put that pressure on you. They have sedation for a reason. If The mare can be caught and held for injection then that seems to me to be enough for the moment.

Go give yourself a break. You really need a some headspace x
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If cows are not quiet and halter trained they go in a crush, even if they are they usually go in a crush for everyone's safety sheep just get caught and manhandled so they are not the same risk as a horse or a cow. They can refuse to treat an animal if it cannot be done safely, the horse needs to be restrained for sedation.
I haven't ever known a horse to be examined for post labour infection but I have limited experience of foaling mares.
 
I use two vet practises. One is a pet and horses vets. I use them for the less obvious stuff. I expect they would react similarly. The other is a farm vets I use for straightforward stuff and the cows. Pretty sure they consider being able to get a headcollar on as a bonus.

I've little experience breeding horses but we did have an unplanned bogoff calf when we first got them that legally had to be ear tagged with x days when we were lucky to get within 10 metres of mum so I do understand that feeling of pressure and that envy of watching youtube videos where they sit next to calf while mum looks on happily when your situation is somewhat different.
 
I couldn't touch my foal for at least a week! And I had owned my mare for over 10 years at that point!
A friends mare was in the same field and she foaled the following day. If you got within 100 metres of her you were brave! She was extremely foal proud!
 
ycbm said:
This one's usually pretty easy to solve actually. Experienced transporters will effectively pick up a foal that small and place him in the lorry/trailer and his mother will almost always follow to protect him. If you sell them the buyer will sort that out.
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However, foals cannot be travelled under 10 days old without a veterinary agreement.
 
Asha said:
I cant understand why people are disappointed with the vet. I dont blame them.. mare is unhandled and foal proud and out in the field. I wouldnt fancy examining a horse, that was no doubt still a bit sore in that situation either.
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She’s not unhandled though, she just hasn’t learnt to lead nicely. OP has stated she’s happy to be touched all over and used to a headcollar and lead rein. She was being sedated anyway.
 
I wouldn't turn an infant foal out in an established herd, it would probably end in disaster.
OP I am going against the grain here, you sound completely overwhelmed with this situation, if you want to sell them do it and find yourself a horse that you can crack on and ride. Be kind to yourself and take off the pressure x
 
What about getting out a trainer experienced in handling mares and foals? Someone like Richard Maxwell? He would definitely be able to help you establish leading etc with Hermosa and show you how to handle the foal if YO is adamant they have to move.

His book is excellent by the way and also describes how to handle feet. I think you'd find it really useful.
 
hi grand foal and mum

Now breath.....you have time to winter

1. ask your vet/farrier/tack shop if they knows of any small studs who would take a mare and foal, i use to livery at a stud and this might be a doable option
2. she is not unhandled or feral, so please don't say this as it will give the wrong impression when you talk to new yard owners
3. i don't know Glasgow or this stud but, although for you it might be a long commute but to put her is an environment, which would be good for the mare and at weaning the foal will be in an established herd of youngsters, on Facebook there was one called "Brookfield Stud", but there are others in the area. just keep it simple when you explain, bought young mare x months ago, found out on date x in foal, foal popped out on date y. now unexpectantly looking for mare and foal livery as yard not suitable, if they can't help can they recommend someone in the area.


and breath
 
palo1 said:
Blimey - I understand why some vets might request a safe place but the good vets I know are calm, pragmatic and not remotely flaky. You are right in that your normal vet would be more supportive of you. :) Emergencies happen and you dealt with it but ordinarily a good vet wouldn't find your situation difficult I don't think.
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You didn’t engineer any of this and are doing as well as any of us would be in this situation. This isn’t a case of ignorance and negligence on your part one iota.
 
Asha said:
I cant understand why people are disappointed with the vet. I dont blame them.. mare is unhandled and foal proud and out in the field. I wouldnt fancy examining a horse, that was no doubt still a bit sore in that situation either.
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the vet has to live another day. They cannot put themselves in a dangerous situation which examining this mare could have been. They have to take every precaution to try and protect themselves.
 
The YO has started characterizing her as "unhandled." That's how the vet got it in her head that she was "wild." This might be because Hermosa has developed a deep and abiding hatred of YO's dog, and if said dog is in the vicinity (and it's attached to YO like glue), no one can catch her.

Everyone who is saying to hold off on a decision is right.

It's helpful reading everyone else's tales of skittish moms and foals.
 
If it helps, I see experienced grooms leading calm mares and (not as calm) foals to their paddocks and back regularly and almost everytime when they're in their first few weeks, it looks like managed disaster. And it is always two experienced grooms working together.

The thing is, this is their job, they do it everyday at this time of year, they always work in pairs and when stuff doesn't go perfectly they don't even notice, because that is normal.

Stop being so hard on yourself, it sounds like you are managing incredibly well. Just relax and try to find some time to just sit and watch your lovely new foal (and possibly, take more pictures ;))
 
Honestly you are doing the best you can in an incredibly difficult situation that you never asked to be put in. Please be kind to yourself.

I’m getting the impression from your posts that your YO is not being as supportive and helpful as you’d like. I know that finding somewhere is very difficult, but feel that perhaps you’d be happier and less stressed if Hermosa and Caso were in a ‘foal friendly’ environment where you could get some support around handling etc, and a more suitable set up. For the time being, it will do them both no harm having some time to get to know each other and you without any outside stress.

ETA appreciate that YO didn’t realise this would happen either, it’s not anyone’s fault just one of those things!
 
Caol Ila said:
In other news, I still have no idea what I’m doing.

I’ve been catching Hermosa and going on tiny walks around the field. Like a couple circles. All fine. Today, I extended our walk, crossing the field. All was going well when Caso fired ahead and she realised she couldn’t run after him. That made her unhappy and she started spinning in circles around me. That made Caso even more alarmed and he moved further away. At which point their field buddy, an old TB gelding, picked up on the excitement and ran over. Caso ran towards him, and he started to round him up a bit. Hermosa lost. Her. Sh1t and started fighting me like a trapped mustang. My headcollar can be whipped on or off in a hurry, so I whipped it off. It seemed like only a matter of time before she ripped herself loose. She rounded up Caso and everyone galloped around the field for a couple minutes.

Once she’d settled, I approached. Headcollar back on. Let her graze a bit wearing it, then walked her in a few smaller circles. She’s fine so long as baby stays close. Then OH and I found her itchy spots. OH managed to get foal to let him scritch him. He’s a damned foal whisperer.

The odd time I’ve been a witness to other people having foals, the first week seemed easier. But maybe it wasn’t and I wasn’t paying enough attention.
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I think you’re in desperate need of a reality check, OP. I mean that in the nicest way possible. If you think the first week is easy for anyone, you really haven’t been paying enough attention ? People tend to share the best parts, so when someone like you or me has a BOGOF arrive, we’re in for a bit of a culture shock.

When I got Mary, she’d been dragged out of a field at four (she was unhandled up to that point), broken in, and sold on to three different homes in six weeks as part of the breaking process. She’s not a stereotypical dope-on-a-rope cob who takes everything in her stride either. She’s sweet as pie, but sensitive is an understatement.

So, we spent from August until April taking everything slowly. I’d got her because my seven year old had retired five months earlier. He’d shattered my confidence - both ridden and on the ground - and his condition was degenerative. All of those years we were supposed to have together were ripped away, and I was grieving for him even though I hadn’t lost him at that point. I loved him immensely, but I had to come to terms with the fact that he was never going to make old bones.

By April, when I found out Mary was in foal, I felt like we’d finally started to get somewhere ridden-wise - and then I realised she was going to have an awful lot of time off. From a confidence perspective, that was the last thing I needed; from a financial point of view, it was even worse. I was 25, self-employed, and going up to three horses had been a stretch.

The reality I was suddenly faced with was four horses, and none of them able to be ridden. One was old and small, the other was my seven-year-old retiree, and now suddenly I had a mare and foal to contend with too.

What I’m proud of is how I stepped up to the plate, but God, it wasn’t easy! Don’t be fooled for a second into thinking it ever is! A couple of weeks before Mary foaled, Sixpence came down with lami, so I had one on box rest and another on foal watch, plus double the vet bills to cover. I could have panicked. Maybe I should have had a full-on meltdown. Instead, I made a conscious decision to enjoy it.

I am the world’s worst worrier, but I refused to let it ruin the experience for me. There were a good few weeks where Mary lost her head while leading. Any time Flower was out of her eye line, she panicked; any time another horse appeared on the other side of the fence, she had the same reaction. I lost count of the amount of times I had her lead rope dragged out of my hands as she disappeared into the distance, despite the fact we were practising in her own field.

I took the pressure off. I remembered that I could ask for and receive help. Any time I started to panic, I took a deliberate step back and reminded myself of how lucky I was to have my girls. When I ended up going through the worst time of my life a few months later, that surprise foal was one of the only things that brought a smile to my face anymore.

It isn’t easy, CI. It isn’t what you planned, nor what I had, but your fear and worry are ruining what ought to be a wonderful experience for you. Don’t let them. You’ll only regret it later if you do ??‍♀️
 
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Amymay said:
CI. DO NOT LET YO PRESSURE YOU IN PUTTING THEM OUT WITH THE HERD!
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this and don't get forced into leading them down a road with cars, ridden horses or anything else. You have no idea what the foal will do. He hasn't got a thought in his head or at least not a useful one. :)he could panic and run, he could run and try and play, he could do anything. If he runs Hermosa will take off after him and you may not be able to hold her.

Wait until you get Caso in a headcollar with a rump rope on and someone to lead and another person to shepherd him.

As Ninja said this is no one's fault. Everyone is on a learning curve, it is just a case of making the best of a bad set of circumstances until you can work out what to do for the best and what you want.

try looking ahead 2 or 3 years. Where do you see yourself?
 
My *yearling* leads well, knows me inside out and likes doing things that involve learning and I STILL haven't gone out of the field gate with her in case I lose her o_O the reason we're doing lorry training now is so I can move fields, to a field we could walk to across the village... not going to take that chance. I agree that trying to lead a green mare with foal toddling around up a road is setting yourself up for potential disaster. Hopefully the YO will agree to pop the other horse back and leave your 2 in peace with the sheep.
 
In fairness to YO, I don't think she expects them to go into the herd now, and I hope she's realistic enough to see that it will take some time to get a headcollar on Caso, much less move him anywhere. But she wants them there eventually. Is this something that can safely be done when the foal is a few months old (YO tells me it is), or should it never, ever happen?
 
'She was making a big deal about Hermosa being "unhandled" and wanting to get her into a barn where we could build stocks with straw bales. Started off with saying that she wouldn't treat the horse unless we did that but thankfully backed down from that. Moving the two from the field to the barn seemed monumentally stupid and dangerous. Catching horse and sedating in field was not, although vet insisted that I lead Hermosa from the far end of the field to the gate (which we achieved, with baby bouncing along). If my normal vet, who's seen Gypsum for the last ten years, had been on-call, he would have trusted my judgement of the situation more and it would have been less fraught, but when you put in an emergency call on Sunday evening, you get the vet you get.
'

To be fair why should vet put themself at risk doing a hind end exam on an unhandled, edgy mare with new foal? Would you trust a random stranger who has never had a newly foaled mare before above your own professional judgement? The vet is allowed to say they can only examine with safeguards in place for handlers. I'm not sure that can be blamed on the vet. Clearly it isn't your fault you needed vet treatment, more the breeders but equally its not the vets fault and not their responsibility to be injured trusting a relatively novice breeding client.

Strongly suggest letting mare and foal chill, catch for feed daily and leave them to it otherwise unless ill again.
 
yes it can be safely done from about 4 weeks if you have halter broken both the mare and foal by then. you will need extra hands though it wont be possible to do both at once for quite a while. My broodmares were always led in and out by one person but they were seasoned mares when the mares were young we used 2 people one for the foal and one for the mare keep the foal in front of the mare to avoid panic and encourage the foal forward with a bum rope
 
'u can put your foot down with a vet. This is your horse, you are doing what you can with what you have been given. From what you have put on here in the previous weeks she is not wild. Your vet seems to have taken relatively unhandled as the mare being wild. She’s not. Yes there was a blip with her baby but that’s a learning moment. You know now not to do that but she will stand and let herself be touched and if the vet has any issues then sedate her. It won’t hurt her to be sedated if the vet feels they have to do it.

Cheeky Chestnut- would you pay that vets lifetime salary if your newly foaled mare who is liable to cart off if foal disappears decides to kick while having a rear end exam? No? Then I suspect you have to respect each vets/farriers etc professional judgement on the safe way to manage examination.
 
Im realising from posts on this thread about leading foals difficulties, how easy i had it with my mare, who was experienced broodmare, but extremely foal proud. So i couldn't touch the foal in the first week at all.

Luckily though, she was handled well when i got her, so would lead…she wasnt nasty, just foal proud. So when i headcollared her, the foal followed wherever we went. I had to turn them out going along a really quiet shared track outside my property, and the foal followed. He would go to the verge, have a sniff, but wherever he wandered, it was never far from her, and mum would vocalise to him with a low short whinny/snicker to come to her.

I wonder if the TB in the same field is in this first week, interrupting the usual ‘glue like’ bond the mare and foal should be cementing. If Caso ran up to the tb when hermosa was headcollared, then he’s also attaching to other horses already and so isnt going to follow mum like glue. I’d remove the TB for this reason so that caso sticks with mum wherever she goes.

I understand you cant dictate what happens as its someone elses yard. But i was saved by my mare being experienced with foals and me not! Perhaps hermosa being maiden and inexperienced hasnt learnt yet with foals to call them to her? Its new for her too. New for everyone!
So i wonder what others think, is the TB in the field interrupting the normal bonding so that caso isnt so attached to mum, but sees her as a milk bar?

I didnt feel pressure to headcollar my foal due to him following wherever i lead her. Even at 12 weeks old, he followed us with just her being lead.
That made moving them so easy, even as he got older and more brave, go further, he was always too scared to be too far away from mum.

If memory serves i headcollared him at around 8 weeks, but didnt use it for daily turn out all the time due to him glued to her. Even at 16 weeks he’d follow, and he was much bigger and braver/independent then, quite the little sh1t at times!…but still glued to her.

Perhaps in the coming weeks Caso will become more attached to Hermosa so you find moving them together easier by just leading mum.

I went through the same throught processes you’re going through CI. Should i keep them, see how it goes? Sell? I was overwhelmed too, and i knew foal was due….so can appreciate your ballooned sense of overwhelment. I had facility issue, at home, but still - do appreciate the added stress of not having the right setting to bring up a foal with less stress.
I had other major life stuff occurring too like trying to build a home and get water/electric for myself, losing my business, etc etc let alone dealing with a mum and foal - so i dedicated myself to them, ignored my needs, and burnt myself out!
I should have sold, but the market was dire at the time. However, i went with the flow of it, and ended up doing a lot i didnt want to, that in itself taught me lots about life generally….so i dont regret my stupid decisions as they all have something to teach. Yet i crashed and burned, i thought at the time i had no choice, but i did. However, i recovered, not pheonix-like…more limp leprechaun!….and despite making stupid decisions, its been a ride and valuable experience/memories nonetheless.

You do have time to just let them be mum and foal while you mull everything over for a few weeks. If the feeling of ‘no, this really isnt what im up for‘ keeps dominating you, moreso than the feeling of ‘i didnt choose this, but its exciting and im up for it!’ …listen to what predominates and make whatever decisions based on that inner voice.
 
Caol Ila said:
In fairness to YO, I don't think she expects them to go into the herd now, and I hope she's realistic enough to see that it will take some time to get a headcollar on Caso, much less move him anywhere. But she wants them there eventually. Is this something that can safely be done when the foal is a few months old (YO tells me it is), or should it never, ever happen?
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I don't think anyone can answer that question. If this was an old baggage of a mare that bit first and followed it up with her feet if there was trouble then she could protect the foal and stand up for herself.
Can Hermosa? she doesn't sound like the strongest mare. Can she look after herself in those circumstances let alone a foal? Do I remember she had problems with a herd at your old yard (can't remember the details) Is she simply going to find the endless day to day of protecting Caso very stressful. Are you going to be able to safely go into the herd and lead them both out if you want to work on her. I don't know what sort of herd it is but if there are geldings and she comes into season will there be problems. Only you on the ground can balance the pros and cons of the situation.
At some stage Caso is going to have to be weaned. How are you going to do that? are you able to at your current yard?

It's a risk I wouldn't take unless I knew everything about the horses and where there was going to be trouble. Apart from just being lovely Caso is a valuable foal and so is Hermosa. It won't take much for one injury to ruin that.

You sound more resistant now to selling them both. That is good as it suggests you really want to keep them for the moment. :)
Can you find a stud to take them even if it is a bit further to drive and you can't see them as often? If you could then they could wean Caso at around 6 months and you could remove Hermosa and either sell her or take her to her permanent adult riding home. Caso could either be sold or stay on for a year at grass livery with a herd. They will be able to cope with slightly less than well handled 3yo's and should have the facilities to cope with vets etc.
 
Caol Ila said:
In fairness to YO, I don't think she expects them to go into the herd now, and I hope she's realistic enough to see that it will take some time to get a headcollar on Caso, much less move him anywhere. But she wants them there eventually. Is this something that can safely be done when the foal is a few months old (YO tells me it is), or should it never, ever happen?
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CI, when foal is a few months old, you can be looking to start weaning if all is going well. (This depends on what the 'few months' actually means tho!).
But no, I would never ever lead a foal down a road except in most extenuating circumstances. Enclosed transport only.

I'm another that would advise mare and foal to stay where they are at present, just a pair, leave much handling him for another week or 2 with just scratching and 'being' there.
I've usually haltered mine between 2 and 15 days, depending on how foal proud mum is, and how shy foal can be.
I never put on a lead rope to a foal to start with, just a tea towel wrapped round neck and held in one hand and a guiding hand on rump.
Sit back, let them settle, introduce yourself and DH over the next week or so.
It WILL work out, honestly x
 
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