Should i pay the bill?

Pearlsasinger

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The horse is twenty. Depending on how long the OP has had him it might have been difficult to get insurance, so I think that's a moot point.

The injury happened seven weeks ago. The vet has been involved throughout, and does not think the horse will recover without surgery. Surgery isn't an option because of the insurance - and I'm not sure it's something to put a twenty year old through, anyway.

OP and vet seem to think putting the horse down is therefore the best way forward for the sake of the horse. Owner agrees to the extent of paying the money and the hunt being booked, but decides a time the last moment - because she's suddenly in a position, with free livery, to take the horse back - that she wants to do x-rays. As surgery still won't be an option, it will be a question of Bute - after almost two months of Bute already whilst the horse deteriorates - and more rest.

I'm really not sure what the X-ray is supposed to achieve: presumably it will either show surgery is required - in which case it sounds as though the owner wants to try rest anyway - or that it isn't required - which still just means rest!

If the vet thinks surgery is necessary for recovery, and that all an x-ray will do is confirm that, and surgery isn't an option, then why would you x-ray?

If the horse had more options then I'd agree that's the OP should pay for diagnostics - but I suspect that would have been done already. But as the only options appear to be put down, or field rest which is, in the vet's opinion, unlikely to work, I can't see that the OP - who has already covered seven weeks of vet care - is morally liable for further costs.

The owner is lucky, given some of the horror stories, that the OP didn't just give thirty days notice and hand the horse back - or even no notice at all!

Very well put!

What a nasty expression to use, 'cheap'.

And 'happened in my care' is not the same as 'was due to my negligence'.

One of the points of a loan is to be able to return if things like this happen, as is clear in the contact.

The vet is recommending euthanasia, which in my experience is something they don't do easily. We don't know what the injury was, but if soft tissue with no external wound then x rays would be useless. And if bone is involved and months cross tied would be required, that's out, as is an operation. So it's easy to see why none have been done.

I think the OP has been more than reasonable.
I agree.
I would tell the owner that as she has changed her mind about pts, she is free to collect the horse, or if she doesn't have transport, that you will deliver him to her free livery. Has she actually spoken to the vet herself? If not that could be helpful.
 

Honey08

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It seems like they don't really know what the injury is, so that's why it would be useful to X-ray..It sounds like they're just going off the vets opinion rather than fact. I would X-ray ( probably not do more) and see if anything is actually broken, if it was I'd PTS, but if not I'd try retiring on a level field if the horse can be made comfortable (back with the owner). I don't insure my horses but an X-ray is not that expensive.
 

paddy555

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there are 2 facts missing in the original post. Firstly we have no idea what happened in the field. No idea if an accident happened which the poster could have avoided by taking more care. It could be the situation for example that the owner now has little choice but to have her horse PTS due to lack of care. Secondly no idea what the injury actually is and little info on the vet diagnosis and how he made the diagnosis. I don't see how a vet could have suggested surgery as an option without more info eg x rays. Possibly they were suggested and OP didn't wish to pay for them or further tests at the time. If I had a vet suggest PTS on a somewhat vague diagnosis I would want a second opinion. The owner was all set to PTS by the hunt but were they encouraged to do so. Was it a case that on reflection they realised x rays should have been done to get a definitive answer? This poster seems very keen to PTS but the horse is only 20 and maybe more could have been done.
 

ester

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It really would be nice to have some more info about how you got this point OP. It is hard to see how an operation can be recommended (or granted not in this case so touted as the only solution) when apparently no scans or xrays have been done.

Ester they did get it sorted. They had the hunt actually booked to come and put the horse down. It is the owner responsible fur the current delay, not the loaner.
Yes and my point being if money was not a problem to me I would humour the owner, argue about it later if I wanted to and get it done yesterday.
 

jumping.jack_flash

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I cant seem to get the 'quote' thing to work. But I say it again, 20 years old is NOT old . Speak to the PDSA / Blue Cross to see if they can help with costs of X-Rays / Ultra Sound... but to be honest - its actually not as expensive as you think.. its Hundreds not Thousands.

PTS for a real definitive reason... age is not a reason, unless the animal is suffering. But every 20 year old horse I know, is well and able to be ridden.
 

jokadoka

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As 'money is not a problem' for the OP, i don't really see why there is an issue at all! OP might not legally be obliged to pay for X-rays, however, if I were her I would get X-rays done and paid for and take it from there. Squabbling over who 'should' pay for what is surely detrimental to the welfare of the horse at this point? Might be a waste of money, might not, but it is certainly wasting time in getting the horse sorted!
 

cbmcts

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I don't think that the OP has done anything wrong but as it is a loaned horse and with all the understandable emotions flying around with the owner, morally paying for xray is the right thing to do.

Completely understand that, if it was her horse she would PTS and it's very likely that is the correct decision. But the owner, again understandably is wobbling and for peace of mind and as long as it is clearly understood that that is the final vet bill that the OP is liable for no matter what the findings it would be honourable and kind to try and establish a definitive diagnosis IMO.
 

kamili

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The OP already has 200 from the owner in their account to pay for the hunt to come. so why not put 80 to that and get the x-rays? then let the owner make a decision from there? Or am I missing something entirely?
 

jhoward

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The horse was booked to be PTS and the money was paid by the owner. Surely that cancels the legal contract regardless of anything else?
The bhs agreement is NOT a legal document. Many think it is but it does even say on the bhs website.
 

Sugar_and_Spice

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I cant seem to get the 'quote' thing to work. But I say it again, 20 years old is NOT old . Speak to the PDSA / Blue Cross to see if they can help with costs of X-Rays / Ultra Sound... but to be honest - its actually not as expensive as you think.. its Hundreds not Thousands.

PTS for a real definitive reason... age is not a reason, unless the animal is suffering. But every 20 year old horse I know, is well and able to be ridden.
This animal *is* suffering, you muppet. That's what this whole thread is about :rolleyes3:


OP, you've had a hard time from some on this thread. Personally I'd not be paying out yet more money on a horse that you'll be returning to it's owner anyway, regardless of the results of the xrays. You've funded vet bills and care upto the point where the vet recommends PTS. IMO you've done your bit. I'd contact the horses owner and tell them you're prepared to book the hunt again and deal with that, using the money they've already given you, or else they can come and collect the horse ASAP. I wouldn't be giving 30 days notice because to do so involves keeping the horse alive and suffering for those 30 days. Loan contracts are basically unenforcible anyway, so you've no need to worry about that. What the owner does with the horse when they get it home it upto them.

To those saying the OP has gone AWOL, are you surprised? And in case you missed it, OP updated a few pages back, saying she had made an offer to the horses owner: which was that OP would pay half the cost of the xrays, on the condition that the following day the horses owner either collected the horse or PTS. I think this is more than fair.

The whole point of loaning your horse out is so that you still have final say in what happens regarding PTS ie why and when. So if the owner wants the horse kept alive she can put her hand in her pocket and sort it. People who don't want their horses returned to them when long term lame/terminally lame, should sell the horse instead. IMO the OP has no moral obligation to keep paying out for this horses care and vet treatment.
 

ester

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I didn't say I was surprised she appeared to have gone awol, it was just a statement of fact no more! in which case people's opinions don't matter anyway :p they rarely do and people will do what they thought right before they posted anyway. As usual I just feel sorry for the horse caught up in the disagreement
 

ester

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I never suggested you weren't busy either, or that you had run away to join the circus :D.... I was just pointing out that you hadn't posted for a while so everyone asking additional questions to help get their head straight on the matter as it might change and a whole load of inaccurate assumptions start to get made without clarification so it all gets a bit murky and a thread like this can get a life of it's own if that makes sense?

As it is I totally agree that stifle's are tricky *******, and suspect that the owner is a bit flakey/fluffy and generally ill prepared for the scenario you are presenting to her given her response or badly advised elsewhere. I am guessing she hasn't yet see the horse/spoken to your vet herself?
 
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I never suggested you weren't busy either, or that you had run away to join the circus :D.... I was just pointing out that you hadn't posted for a while so everyone asking additional questions to help get their head straight on the matter as it might change and a whole load of inaccurate assumptions start to get made without clarification so it all gets a bit murky and a thread like this can get a life of it's own if that makes sense?

As it is I totally agree that stifle's are tricky *******, and suspect that the owner is a bit flakey/fluffy and generally ill prepared for the scenario you are presenting to her given her response or badly advised elsewhere. I am guessing she hasn't yet see the horse/spoken to your vet herself?
She's both seen the horse & spoken to the vet!! However the information she gave the vet was not correct (he told me exactly what she said) she told him horse looks better & barely lame!! He still maintains that prognosis is not good as he has obviously seen the horse himself over the 7 weeks.

I think she is in denial which i do understand, however it is nor helping the horse :-(
 
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So is option A you send him back to her? TBH I would have expected to pay for transport anyway if I were you.
Oh yes that was never in question! Just that if she insisted on traveling him after an x-ray ready shorted he would not recover then i would not pay
 

jumping.jack_flash

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In reply to 'sugar and Spice' . (yet I don't know why im bothering . . ). The horse from reading the thread was not suffering, not bleeding to death . . Just uncomfortable in walk . .and from reading its out in a field . .well it cant be a broken leg. Hence vet suggested x rays.

I would investigate all options . .just because this is a 'loaned' animal, 20years old, does not mean it doesn't deserve to have some expense of care, regardless who the finger is pointed at to pay.

We own these animals and they rely on us for their welfare . .so what's a few hundred quid to investigate? Find out, it could be treatable . . .before jumping on the PTS band wagon, it really could be something simple.
 

FfionWinnie

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In reply to 'sugar and Spice' . (yet I don't know why im bothering . . ). The horse from reading the thread was not suffering, not bleeding to death . . Just uncomfortable in walk . .and from reading its out in a field . .well it cant be a broken leg. Hence vet suggested x rays.

I would investigate all options . .just because this is a 'loaned' animal, 20years old, does not mean it doesn't deserve to have some expense of care, regardless who the finger is pointed at to pay.

We own these animals and they rely on us for their welfare . .so what's a few hundred quid to investigate? Find out, it could be treatable . . .before jumping on the PTS band wagon, it really could be something simple.
The horse is unable to walk without discomfort and you don't think that is suffering. Give. Me. Strength.
 

ester

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I did think might be better to bleed to death, wouldn't last too long at least. It's quite scary for anyone to have such a high threshold for 'suffering' - bleeding to death or broken limbs. Though I also suspect that they have very little concept of how a broken leg can present either...
 

ycbm

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It seems like they don't really know what the injury is, so that's why it would be useful to X-ray..It sounds like they're just going off the vets opinion rather than fact. I would X-ray ( probably not do more) and see if anything is actually broken, if it was I'd PTS, but if not I'd try retiring on a level field if the horse can be made comfortable (back with the owner). I don't insure my horses but an X-ray is not that expensive.
 

ycbm

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The OP already has 200 from the owner in their account to pay for the hunt to come. so why not put 80 to that and get the x-rays? then let the owner make a decision from there? Or am I missing something entirely?
 

Blurr

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The horse from reading the thread was not suffering, not bleeding to death . . Just uncomfortable in walk . .and from reading its out in a field . .well it cant be a broken leg. Hence vet suggested x rays.

.
It is perfectly possible for a horse to walk (trot and canter) with a broken leg (undisplaced fracture). My pony did a few weeks ago. We had no idea she had a broken leg until the fracture displaced and caused her to bleed into her thigh (a few days earlier she had been examined/manipulated by the vet with no sign of discomfort at any of the joints and a brewing abscess was suspected).
 

southerncomfort

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In reply to 'sugar and Spice' . (yet I don't know why im bothering . . ). The horse from reading the thread was not suffering, not bleeding to death . . Just uncomfortable in walk . .and from reading its out in a field . .well it cant be a broken leg. Hence vet suggested x rays.

I would investigate all options . .just because this is a 'loaned' animal, 20years old, does not mean it doesn't deserve to have some expense of care, regardless who the finger is pointed at to pay.

We own these animals and they rely on us for their welfare . .so what's a few hundred quid to investigate? Find out, it could be treatable . . .before jumping on the PTS band wagon, it really could be something simple.
I thought the vet said that x-rays would be pointless? (Going to read back a bit now to check!)
 

pansymouse

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I agree; the owner needs to man up and think of the horse's welfare and not her own feelings. Prolonging the life of an animal because you can't face letting them go is very cruel and unbelievably selfish.
 
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I thought the vet said that x-rays would be pointless? (Going to read back a bit now to check!)
Vet has said x-rays will confirm whether or not it is definitely a fracture in which case field rest *could* work. However it is his opinion (and another vet who has been to the yard for other reasons agrees) based on circumstances surrounding the injury (no other horses in field to kick him, no hard surfaces to hit against) that it is most likely a soft tissue injury and therefore not fixable without surgery. He is of the opinion that x-rays will simply show what we already believe to be the case.

Don't get me wrong, I am not judging her for her decisions, I'm not saying she is being cruel by not pts, however this is her decision not mine, mine is to pts based on the information given to me by a professional who's opinion I have paid for... otherwise what is the point in vets?!!
 

jumping.jack_flash

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If the horse in question did have a broken leg - then vets are not allowed to walk away and leave an animal to suffer. Regardless. Maybe I have it wrong, perhaps people in here are much happy to have an animal PTS rather than paying to investigate the route cause.

There is suffering, and then suffering.... but the OP seems to be happy to leave it out in a field until a decision is made to PTS this 20 year old horse down, when in reality, it could of just gone down a rabbit hole, and a few weeks of box rest, with pain killers could help until X ray for a definitive answer to the situation.

Pleased I'm not so 'Gun-ho' to PTS !
 
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If the horse in question did have a broken leg - then vets are not allowed to walk away and leave an animal to suffer. Regardless. Maybe I have it wrong, perhaps people in here are much happy to have an animal PTS rather than paying to investigate the route cause.

There is suffering, and then suffering.... but the OP seems to be happy to leave it out in a field until a decision is made to PTS this 20 year old horse down, when in reality, it could of just gone down a rabbit hole, and a few weeks of box rest, with pain killers could help until X ray for a definitive answer to the situation.

Pleased I'm not so 'Gun-ho' to PTS !
You are still missing the point that the vet believes he should be pts, why would I pay for vets advice then ignore it???
 
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