Should i pay the bill?

[hopscotch bandit]

the horse is on two bute a day, lame in walk, cannot get down to roll, vet says its prognosis is poor.
IMHO the owner should be shot along with the horse, delaying is causing unnesecarry suffering..

 

[jumping.jack_flash]

My point is - VETS do get it wrong. I had a horse that I was advised to PTS.... I took the VET at their word and had the horse PTS. Upon after investigation and speaking to OTHER VETS - this horse could of been managed, and been really comfortable and had a few more years of a happy life.. which the insurers also thought was true - hence they would not pay up the loss of use, because they felt the horse was not PTS within the BEVA Guidelines.

Hence, I say it again.... investigate, VETS are not GODS... sometimes what they think is the issue, turns out to be something else.. I feel that they are looking at this horse by its age....

At the end of the day, I'm just at the end of a key board.. I have not seen the horse, I do not know if it is suffering , or just sore... its your choice. But if it was me, for the sake of a few hundred quid and for peace of mind IF I had done the right thing, I would pay for X-Rays, Ultra sound to be done on site.

My friend is still riding their 26 yr ISH and taking her to sponsored rides.... she's had both her hocks injected... and she's back in the game (obviously no jumping)... each animal is different I fully understand that. But my first pony was PTS at 33 years of age, and was ridden by the next jockeys in our family... was loved to bits and was managed. Hence I keep harping on that 20 is not old!

 

[wowser]

While this debate goes on the pony is still waiting for someone to decide what they want to do. Make the decision. What ever it is. He deserves that much.

 

[EllenJay]

IMHO if the owner wants the X-rays then the owner should pay for the X-rays - not the loaner. Same if it was the other way around and the loaner wanted X-rays and the owner didn't.

Personally, I would return the PTS money, along with the horse and tell the owner to sort it out.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

while this debate goes on the pony is still waiting for someone to decide what they want to do. Make the decision. What ever it is. He deserves that much.

^^^^ this ^^^

 

[ester]

Gosh if you are only saying it is ok within the BEVA guidelines that would leave you plenty of suffering equids. Because it does not fit those guidelines does not in anyway mean a vet is wrong in their advice.

Do you have any experience of stifle injuries JJF?

 

[Kezzabell2]

I think its disgusting that she would expect you to pay when you've agreed PTS! she's decided to keep the horse and try to see what happens, its her decision, she should pay!

 

[Veegeeay]

^^^^ this ^^^

The owner has decided to have him back & she has said he will be going in a field to recover with Bute so nothibg different is happening now than would be if he was with her. He still continues to get worse however.. also before anyone asks why I haven't sent him back yet she doesn't have anywhere for him to go until 5th June so he's stuck here, in pain with nothing i can do about it except watch.

 

[Veegeeay]

Something else which may influence opinions... the current owner has had him for 2 years, previous owner of over 15 years agreed pts. In fact he already is Loss of use due to a serious tendon injury to a front leg that he recovered from, he is an ex - hunt horse so has plenty of old injuries & knobbly legs! He was already unable to jump or do any tight corners or fast work, he was with me as a happy light hacker. If it turns out field rest would help then current owner will still be in the same position re loaning him that led her to me in the first place!!

 

[thatsmygirl]

In my view, if you loan a horse you cover full costs while in your care, think the owner was nice to put £200 forward to pts, you should cover that in my mind.
Tbh I feel it's a bit silly having a loan horse not insured, if it's your horse it's up to you but say horse needed expensive operation? Your liable while in your care.

 

[Tiddlypom]

In my view, if you loan a horse you cover full costs while in your care, think the owner was nice to put £200 forward to pts, you should cover that in my mind.
Tbh I feel it's a bit silly having a loan horse not insured, if it's your horse it's up to you but say horse needed expensive operation? Your liable while in your care.

Veteran horse policies usually only cover accidental injury with visible external signs of injury, so this case wouldn't be covered. Loan horses can quite rightly be returned if not fit for purpose, but unfortunately sometimes owners are not prepared or able to receive the horse back.

As to the terms of who pays for PTS, well that should be pre agreed in the loan agreement. (I have both had a veteran mare on loan, and now loan out my youngster).

 

[Veegeeay]

Veteran horse policies usually only cover accidental injury with visible external signs of injury, so this case wouldn't be covered. Loan horses can quite rightly be returned if not fit for purpose, but unfortunately sometimes owners are not prepared or able to receive the horse back.

As to the terms of who pays for PTS, well that should be pre agreed in the loan agreement. (I have both had a veteran mare on loan, and now loan out my youngster).

Written in contract owner oasis for ptd. This is not an issue!

 

[Honey08]

On-site x rays are about £300. That's a lot of money to spend on a horse that you have no intention of keeping and who a vet says has a very poor prognosis.

Yes, my horse's were £280 last year. Not a lot in my opinion to be sure you've got the right diagnosis and it's not treatable before you PTS someone else's horse that you've damaged, albeit accidentally. I would have done this week's ago - the horse may also have been PTS sooner too..

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Yes, my horse's were £280 last year. Not a lot in my opinion to be sure you've got the right diagnosis and it's not treatable before you PTS someone else's horse that you've damaged, albeit accidentally. I would have done this week's ago - the horse may also have been PTS sooner too..

Completely agree. Poor horse.

 

[ycbm]

Yes, my horse's were £280 last year. Not a lot in my opinion to be sure you've got the right diagnosis and it's not treatable before you PTS someone else's horse that you've damaged, albeit accidentally. I would have done this week's ago - the horse may also have been PTS sooner too..

Nobody damaged the horse. He damaged himself in the field, as horses do. It's the owners decision when to put to sleep. The loaner is trying to return the horse under the terms of her contract, but the owner has asked her to keep him until early June. It's the owner's decision to keep this horse in pain. Against the advice of the loaner's vet.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Nobody damaged the horse. He damaged himself in the field, as horses do. It's the owners decision when to put to sleep. The loaner is trying to return the horse under the terms of her contract, but the owner has asked her to keep him until early June. It's the owner's decision to keep this horse in pain. Against the advice of the loaner's vet.

The BHS loan agreement clearly states that the loanee is responsible for all vets bills - the vet's said that "the only way to know whether field rest would resolve the issue is by having an x-ray done" and the owner wants an x-ray before pts. So the loanee needs to pay for an x-ray (and IMO should have done this weeks ago).

 

[Veegeeay]

The BHS loan agreement clearly states that the loanee is responsible for all vets bills - the vet's said that "the only way to know whether field rest would resolve the issue is by having an x-ray done" and the owner wants an x-ray before pts. So the loanee needs to pay for an x-ray (and IMO should have done this weeks ago).

But weeks ago the owner told me she didn't want to bother with x rays & arranged to be pts!!
It was over a week later that she changed her mind.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

But weeks ago the owner told me she didn't want to bother with x rays & arranged to be pts!!
It was over a week later that she changed her mind.

Why wasn't the horse pts weeks ago?

 

[Veegeeay]

Why wasn't the horse pts weeks ago?

She wanted to come see him (fair enough) which took a few days, then her boyfriend to meet him & he couldn't get there for a week. Each time we've collected her/ them from the station & taken her back as neither of them drive. She has seen the horse a total of 3 times in the last 9 months, 2 of those since she decided to pts & not since she changed her mind a week ago

 

[Doublethyme]

For the sake of the horse and if money no object OP, I would I think take it on the chin, pay the money and just write off as the loss making money pits horses are. It sounds to me that the owner has no resource whatsoever to keep this horse. In my opinion to loan out a 20 year 'much loved' horse is not something I would do anyway so she either has financial trouble or doesn't care about the horse till it suits her.

All that leads me to believe this could run and run to the detriment if the horse. If you believe that PTS is the best for the horse, get the xrays to prove your point and hopefully prevent that horse going back to someone without the resources to keep him properly. I know that I would sleep easier if that was me.

The horse sounds like he needs your help to guide an indecisive owner to the right decision. Surely he deserves your support even if the owner doesn't. Money spent will soon fade, knowing you could have helped the horse and didn't may not.

 

[Veegeeay]

For the sake of the horse and if money no object OP, I would I think take it on the chin, pay the money and just write off as the loss making money pits horses are. It sounds to me that the owner has no resource whatsoever to keep this horse. In my opinion to loan out a 20 year 'much loved' horse is not something I would do anyway so she either has financial trouble or doesn't care about the horse till it suits her.

All that leads me to believe this could run and run to the detriment if the horse. If you believe that PTS is the best for the horse, get the xrays to prove your point and hopefully prevent that horse going back to someone without the resources to keep him properly. I know that I would sleep easier if that was me.

The horse sounds like he needs your help to guide an indecisive owner to the right decision. Surely he deserves your support even if the owner doesn't. Money spent will soon fade, knowing you could have helped the horse and didn't may not.

Did i ever say money no object????? My point was it's not about the money but the fact she wants me to pay for something I don't want/need. Have i mentioned that I have been the loaner in a very similar situation? Loanee took vets advice, which was pts & if i had wanted further investigations I would have paid up instantly, not because I'm loaded but because it was my horse & therefore ultimately my responsibility to pay for something further than what the loanee is prepared to. Maybe i souls have made the person loaning my horse pay for xrays/ ultrasound etc.....

 

[ycbm]

The BHS loan agreement clearly states that the loanee is responsible for all vets bills - the vet's said that "the only way to know whether field rest would resolve the issue is by having an x-ray done" and the owner wants an x-ray before pts. So the loanee needs to pay for an x-ray (and IMO should have done this weeks ago).

The vet doesn't think this horse will recover without surgery and the he is 20 years old and uninsured so this is not an option.

The loaner also says if he was her horse, she would put him to sleep. It is the owners decision not to put him to sleep, something which was agreed and booked long ago. The owner changed her mind, so the owner should pay for the x rays, and for the livery while he remains with the loaner after the PTS date, imo.

Surely the whole point of loaning, apart from avoiding the capital costs, is not to be lumbered with problems like this?

People seem to be answering this poster as if she should feel the same way about this horse as if he'd been her childhood pony or long term buddy. She doesn't have that emotional stake in him and there's no reason why she should.

The owner is prolonging this horse's problems, no-one else.

I feel sorry for the horse and the loaner.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

The owner has decided to have him back & she has said he will be going in a field to recover with Bute so nothibg different is happening now than would be if he was with her. He still continues to get worse however.. also before anyone asks why I haven't sent him back yet she doesn't have anywhere for him to go until 5th June so he's stuck here, in pain with nothing i can do about it except watch.

Its not your fault Veegeeay the fault is very much with the owner, I am not blaming you far from it.Sorry but when the vet that has spent the last decade and a half knowing my horse inside out (literally) calls time on my horse that will be it as far as I am concerned.They are not a vet for no reason.Sure mistakes are made and sometimes a second opinion may be nesecsary but if the horse is currently in pain to the extent you explain and its struggling to get up and down that situation will not change without a miracle happening, second, third or tenth opinion won't change the prognosis or the facts of the matter.The owner is just being a total coward imho.

 

[jumping.jack_flash]

Horses cost money end-of.

 

[jokadoka]

For the sake of the horse and if money no object OP, I would I think take it on the chin, pay the money and just write off as the loss making money pits horses are. It sounds to me that the owner has no resource whatsoever to keep this horse. In my opinion to loan out a 20 year 'much loved' horse is not something I would do anyway so she either has financial trouble or doesn't care about the horse till it suits her.

All that leads me to believe this could run and run to the detriment if the horse. If you believe that PTS is the best for the horse, get the xrays to prove your point and hopefully prevent that horse going back to someone without the resources to keep him properly. I know that I would sleep easier if that was me.

The horse sounds like he needs your help to guide an indecisive owner to the right decision. Surely he deserves your support even if the owner doesn't. Money spent will soon fade, knowing you could have helped the horse and didn't may not.

Totally agree with this.

 

[AmieeT]

A vet can PTS without owner's consent if the animal is suffering enough, their sole reason only has to be that the animal is suffering. I'd be inclined to speak to them about that (I believe they would need a second opinion and permission from a PC, so not an easy option).

I think it's despicable that she intends to simple out him in a field with Bute that has already proved to be useless. Does she intend to have her own vet assess him at all?!

JJF you seem to be missing the point. Two vets have agreed. You had a bad experience, remember it's easy for other vets to say they could save you horse when it's already dead and they didn't see the injuries. Stop acting like you know better than the paid (AND QUALIFIED) professionals who have already told the OP that the horse will not recover.

 

[Laika]

Overall, I think the loanee has been put in a horrible, awkward position. The Loanee has seeked veterinary advice and was told by a professional that it would be in the horses best interest to be put to sleep. As it is the owners decision to go against that advice, I think it is now up to them to step up and go into thorough investigation. I am under no illusion that in the end, it'll end up coming to the same conclusion the loanee has already come to.

OP I just feel bad that you have to wait until 5th of June, all the while watching this animal suffer when you know in your right mind what needs to be done.

 

[meleeka]

For those saying the loaner should pay, if it were your horse that someobodu had on loan wouldn't you be putting the horse first and getting those X-rays done pronto, regardless of who was paying? The OP is quite happy to take the vets opinion, but the owner understandably isn't so sure. The owner is the one prolonging that horses suffering, not the loaner, who would have had it all finished weeks ago.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

My point is - VETS do get it wrong. I had a horse that I was advised to PTS.... I took the VET at their word and had the horse PTS. Upon after investigation and speaking to OTHER VETS - this horse could of been managed, and been really comfortable and had a few more years of a happy life.. which the insurers also thought was true - hence they would not pay up the loss of use, because they felt the horse was not PTS within the BEVA Guidelines.

Hence, I say it again.... investigate, VETS are not GODS... sometimes what they think is the issue, turns out to be something else.. I feel that they are looking at this horse by its age...

I have to be honest, in the vast majority of cases (save for freak accidents etc) if you're meeting BEVA guidelines you've most likely failed the horse.

My 5yo was PTS a few months ago now. She did not meet BEVA guidelines despite the fact she was on 3 legs, was impossible to keep sound in a field and had suffered an acute tear to her DDFT, followed by a split to her SDFT months later. Despite her prognosis being guarded with an extremely slim chance of her ever returning to ridden work I did everything and I mean EVERYTHING to try and get her sound. We box rested, we field rested, we had monthly ultrasounds to check progress, we had cutting edge stem cell treatment and when she damaged her SDFT we referred her to the RVC where the leading specialists in soft tissue injuries saw her. I put my all into getting her better, and when I eventually gave up it was because I knew in my heart of hearts that it was the right thing to do. We didn't meet BEVA guidelines as they felt we could have buted her up (she was already on a high dosage) and box rested her for 6-9 months, but quite frankly that would have just been cruel given she was a 5yo competition horse, especially when there were no guarantees she would ever come sound at the end of it.

So yes, whilst vets can make mistakes, there are very few that will willy nilly suggest PTS unless they genuinely believe it's in the horse's best interests.

 

[blitznbobs]

Send the horse back , don't pay for the X-ray you are not legally obliged to pay for bills once horse is returned... owners issue