Should there be a weight limit for people at shows (and if so, what and how?!)

[Goldie's mum]

Just curious as to views on this. Should there be a rule - if so, what? and how should it be implemented in a way that is sensitive to everyone, but protects the horses/ponies welfare?

Id say deliberate cruelty is very rare but people are generally bigger than they were a generation ago & breed standards/class rules were written for a different age. Raising the issue to make people think is a very good idea. New riders still seem to be told they're ok on a horse if their feet are level with its belly. That's outdated information based on a previous generation's average body shape. Limits would need to be very vague for all the reasons mentioned above but a class entry form could say "The approximate upper rider weight limit for this breed would be x stone not including tack. Be aware that if you appear to be under horsed to the judge you may be taken aside to be weighed."

 

[Birker2020]

My vet never mentions human weight on horses but she does say that if horses were allowed to move naturally she wouldn't have to run round injecting hocks all the time.I have the new cob who has a fabulous walk and is soft and supple.Farrier says it's because she is straight.He added that most of the horses in our yard are crooked.Nearly all have owners trained by someone who was trained by someone quite big in the dressage world.

I personally think she needs to change to narrative to "If horses were allowed to move naturally and not on a surface and drilled with circles and continual collected movements" she wouldn't need to run round injection hocks all the time.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Ahh I see the return of the 'but X and Y is worse' argument is being exercised again. This is always the go to of a lot of posters on various contentious threads. I really don't think it's a productive way to look at issues.

 

[Upthecreek]

I don’t want to judge people or offend them either but if you are expecting a living being to carry you surely you have to take personal responsibility for ensuring you make that as comfortable and easy as possible? Unfortunately that doesn’t seem to be the case or we wouldn’t be having this discussion. We shouldn’t need to weigh riders and horses at shows, ideally everyone who rides should understand horse physiology and put the wellbeing of the horse first….. meanwhile back in the real world.

Incidentally I would have no issue with being weighed at a show or event, but weighing tack and horse as well and doing the calculations would be a right faff.

Exactly. But I will never ever judge someone for the weight. We just have to have a better understanding of the very nature of a horse's physiology, why it is how it is, and how we're asking a lot for them to carry anyone at all.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I don't see why commenting on weight is so judgemental and causes such uproar. Everyone has eyes and a mirror so it is no surprise to them what size they are, big or small. Weight is just a descriptor for your mass vs gravity balance, it's not a comment on who you are, what your lifestyle is, no-one is saying you are any less of a person for being over or under weight.. it's just another characteristic just like having brown hair.

Yes, being fat gets me down - I understand that side of it too, I don't love it but I can't argue or being upset by a factual assessment of my size. For example, my doctor telling me I am overweight isn't him saying I am a lesser person, just that I am larger than I should be for optimum health in his professional opinion.

No-one would argue with a weight limit for a particular ride at a theme park, or that they are too big for the seats, so why does it suddently become so outrageous when it's horses? I'm baffled.

 

[sbloom]

Yes, being fat gets me down - I understand that side of it too, I don't love it but I can't argue or being upset by a factual assessment of my size. For example, my doctor telling me I am overweight isn't him saying I am a lesser person, just that I am larger than I should be for optimum health in his professional opinion.

People WILL find it emotive. Imagine if you kept going to the doctor for a particular issue and ALL she'd go on about was your weight, that that is the underlying problem, so go away and lose weight and if you still have the issue then we'll look again...and all she can recommend is a commercial diet business (as most are businesses first and foremost, and mostly food manufacturers at that, of the worst kind).

I know that last bit is changing, there is sometimes the sort of help available that for instance Dr Chatterjee champions, but mental health and weight are virtually inseparable and instead of being helped, overweight people are mostly villified. And you can improve your health without losing weight, weight is just SO visible that the vast majority of us see it as an indicator of health, and often of laziness which is unbelievably cruel, and a complete misunderstanding of the human psyche.

https://www.facebook.com/WeAreRebelfit

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

People WILL find it emotive. Imagine if you kept going to the doctor for a particular issue and ALL she'd go on about was your weight, that that is the underlying problem, so go away and lose weight and if you still have the issue then we'll look again...and all she can recommend is a commercial diet business (as most are businesses first and foremost, and mostly food manufacturers at that, of the worst kind).

I know that last bit is changing, there is sometimes the sort of help available that for instance Dr Chatterjee champions, but mental health and weight are virtually inseparable and instead of being helped, overweight people are mostly villified. And you can improve your health without losing weight, weight is just SO visible that the vast majority of us see it as an indicator of health, and often of laziness which is unbelievably cruel, and a complete misunderstanding of the human psyche.

https://www.facebook.com/WeAreRebelfit

Believe me, I have had that experience at the doctors.. They have tried to prescribe weight loss injections, asked if I am aware of slimming world, told that a particular health issue was as a result of my weight despite it being a documented result of an eating disorder I had as a teenager... But that is a completely different argument, you can be angry at the way you are treated without being unable to discuss in a rational manner the fact that you are overweight. Weight is an inflammatory word, if you called it people's relation to gravity I think they would get much less upset.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Well its irrelevant to me as I'm not riding and probably won't be able to ride my horse (who has arthritis but obviously not due to rider weight as he's been professionally produced and competed with a string of lightweight riders) but interesting comments nevertheless.

I think a more interesting conversation about overworking horses at aged 3, 4 and 5 which can a) cause and b) speed up degenerative changes is more worthwhile imho.

Why can't we have both conversations?

 

[Barton Bounty]

I don't see why commenting on weight is so judgemental and causes such uproar. Everyone has eyes and a mirror so it is no surprise to them what size they are, big or small. Weight is just a descriptor for your mass vs gravity balance, it's not a comment on who you are, what your lifestyle is, no-one is saying you are any less of a person for being over or under weight.. it's just another characteristic just like having brown hair.

Yes, being fat gets me down - I understand that side of it too, I don't love it but I can't argue or being upset by a factual assessment of my size. For example, my doctor telling me I am overweight isn't him saying I am a lesser person, just that I am larger than I should be for optimum health in his professional opinion.

No-one would argue with a weight limit for a particular ride at a theme park, or that they are too big for the seats, so why does it suddently become so outrageous when it's horses? I'm baffled.

I dont think it does cause an uproar as such, i am not offended either by what was said. It did offend me that you picked out myself and birkers post and commented, I personally was just giving my opinion on the post.
Although I did not realise when you said YOU it was not meant personally, that is why it always comes across different via keyboard

 

[Barton Bounty]

Believe me, I have had that experience at the doctors.. They have tried to prescribe weight loss injections, asked if I am aware of slimming world, told that a particular health issue was as a result of my weight despite it being a documented result of an eating disorder I had as a teenager... But that is a completely different argument, you can be angry at the way you are treated without being unable to discuss in a rational manner the fact that you are overweight. Weight is an inflammatory word, if you called it people's relation to gravity I think they would get much less upset.

I must be fatter because of my shampoo ?? it says volumising on the bottle, thats where I am going wrong ???

 

[Birker2020]

I dont think it does cause an uproar as such, i am not offended either by what was said. It did offend me that you picked out myself and birkers post and commented, I personally was just giving my opinion on the post.
Although I did not realise when you said YOU it was not meant personally, that is why it always comes across different via keyboard

Yes I agree with this. I suppose I am a bit sensitive about my weight, if it was one thing I could change about me it would be that especially as I try so hard to lose it and never seem to get far

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I dont think it does cause an uproar as such, i am not offended either by what was said. It did offend me that you picked out myself and birkers post and commented, I personally was just giving my opinion on the post.
Although I did not realise when you said YOU it was not meant personally, that is why it always comes across different via keyboard

It would have been clearer if I hadn't quoted specific posts when I did mean a colloqial 'you', I have mentally noted for future reference. It's hard to try and predict how written text will come across as you say.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Yes I agree with this. I suppose I am a bit sensitive about my weight, if it was one thing I could change about me it would be that especially as I try so hard to lose it and never seem to get far

me too, might try to shift a stone since this morning I have been diagnosed with osteoarthritis and will need a bionic knee ??‍?

 

[Birker2020]

It would have been clearer if I hadn't quoted specific posts when I did mean a colloqial 'you', I have mentally noted for future reference. It's hard to try and predict how written text will come across as you say.

I think it was more FO and the way he/she came across that got my goat.

 

[Barton Bounty]

It would have been clearer if I hadn't quoted specific posts when I did mean a colloqial 'you', I have mentally noted for future reference. It's hard to try and predict how written text will come across as you say.

Happy days ? ??

 

[sbloom]

Yes I agree with this. I suppose I am a bit sensitive about my weight, if it was one thing I could change about me it would be that especially as I try so hard to lose it and never seem to get far

You're far from alone, have you looked at Rebelfit? Rider Reboot also does nutrition and mindset work as part of the overall rider conditioning approach.

 

[Birker2020]

You're far from alone, have you looked at Rebelfit? Rider Reboot also does nutrition and mindset work as part of the overall rider conditioning approach.

thanks. I've not as I figured the gym should be sorting me out but I'll have a nosey and see what its all about. Rider reboot is not much point as I can't ride as you know.

I was actually thinking of joining weight watchers at some point.

 

[eahotson]

I personally think she needs to change to narrative to "If horses were allowed to move naturally and not on a surface and drilled with circles and continual collected movements" she wouldn't need to run round injection hocks all the time.

I

I personally think she needs to change to narrative to "If horses were allowed to move naturally and not on a surface and drilled with circles and continual collected movements" she wouldn't need to run round injection hocks all the time.

Of course harsh and incorrect schooling will damage horses, I have seen it done.

 

[TheHairyOne]

I think this a very difficult and emotive question.

I hate seeing riders who dont 'fit' either their horse or their tack due to their larger size (which may or may not be soley weight - some people carry it in very unfortunate places). However, this is subjective and an issue like this probably should not be addressed in a wholey subjective way.

It cant be simplified to a weight of rider v's height of horse, a 16hh tb is very different to a 16hh cob as we all know! Nor do i think a weight tape can be used as we all know how 'off' they can be.

Its also very hard to 'guess' someones weight.

I think i look fine on my horse, I dont think I look especially fat off my horse either. A few extra pounds carried about, but nothing too drastic looks wise - it all spreads pretty evenly. I am however not a stick and nor am i short! My horse doesnt appear to struggle. His physio is always happy with him.

Would you pull me up at a show as a welfare issue? He is just 16hh and in this pic I am over 13 stone...

 

[Barton Bounty]

I think this a very difficult and emotive question.

I hate seeing riders who dont 'fit' either their horse or their tack due to their larger size (which may or may not be soley weight - some people carry it in very unfortunate places). However, this is subjective and an issue like this probably should not be addressed in a wholey subjective way.

It cant be simplified to a weight of rider v's height of horse, a 16hh tb is very different to a 16hh cob as we all know! Nor do i think a weight tape can be used as we all know how 'off' they can be.

Its also very hard to 'guess' someones weight.

I think i look fine on my horse, I dont think I look especially fat off my horse either. A few extra pounds carried about, but nothing too drastic looks wise - it all spreads pretty evenly. I am however not a stick and nor am i short! My horse doesnt appear to struggle. His physio is always happy with him.

Would you pull me up at a show as a welfare issue? He is just 16hh and in this pic I am over 13 stone...

View attachment 96232

Not me, personally you look perfect on him

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

In contrast to your post THO, this is me at 5'7 and 13.5stone on my 18.3hh warmblood. I am very long legged, and he was very narrow.. plus I have an air jacket and a racesafe on. I have picked one taken at a similar angle to yours just to highlight how not that different the two photos look in terms of overall rider fit...



and for those who say he wasn't 18.3, as there's always some - here he is next to the 5ft8 physio lady..

 

[sbloom]

thanks. I've not as I figured the gym should be sorting me out but I'll have a nosey and see what its all about. Rider reboot is not much point as I can't ride as you know.

I was actually thinking of joining weight watchers at some point.

Please don't do WW until you've thoroughly researched both options the options I mention. Rider Reboot is rider focused, but you can sign up no problem but Rebelfit may be more appropriate right now, though they run certain "missions" which start and finish, the next one (very soon I think) is a (peri)/menopause focused one. The gym isn't addressing your relationship with food, the environmental factors that affect why your "set point weight", the weight that your body gravitates to, is higher than you'd like, exercise alone is seldom successful for weight loss, unless it's happened ONLY because someone has become sedentary, and that's rare, for most of us it's emotional, behavioural and environmental.

 

[PurBee]

I think in the near future rider/horse weight parameters will be legally set in the competing circles first, then the leisure industry.

As science aids in investigating what horses and other working animals can endure, coupled with a higher awareness and concern of animal welfare issues in the general public, any laws that do come into effect will likely be welcomed by most in these industries.

Afterall, we’re animal lovers, not sadists, so when the science consistently shows what we used to do was detrimental to an animal, we have to change our methods.

The studies that have been done thusfar mostly quote a 2008 Powell study that tested horses bloodwork and muscle soreness with different weights carried. At 10-15% rider weight there were no physiological changes :

”... Powell et al. (2008) subjected the horses to a submaximal mounted standard exercise test under four conditions: carrying 15, 20, 25, or 30% of their body weight. They stated that horses carrying 10-15% of their body weight (about 50-75 kg of rider's body weight) demonstrate no physiological changes [27]. Then the maximal load for a horse has been suggested to not exceed 20% of horses body weight (about 100 kg of rider's body weight) [28,29], seeing that exceeding load constituting 25% of horses body weight (about 125 kg of rider's body weight) results in the basic physiological parameters increasing and post-exercise muscle pain [27,28]. ...”

https://www.researchgate.net/public...eight-Carrying_Ability_of_Light_Riding_Horses

Other excerpts from above link of other studies following on from powell research:


“According to Powell et al. (2008), heart rates, respiration rates and rectal temperatures of light riding horses trotting at 4.8 km followed by cantering at 1.6 km were higher when carring 25% and 30% of their body weight than those with 15% and 20% weight carriage. Similarly, they reported that the horses tended to have greater changes in muscle soreness and muscle tightness when carrying 25% of their body weight, and significant changes in soreness and tightness scores were found in horses carrying 30% of their body weight (Powell et al. 2008). ...
... According to Powell et al. (2008), heart rates, respiration rates and rectal temperatures of light riding horses trotting at 4.8 km followed by cantering at 1.6 km were higher when carring 25% and 30% of their body weight than those with 15% and 20% weight carriage. Similarly, they reported that the horses tended to have greater changes in muscle soreness and muscle tightness when carrying 25% of their body weight, and significant changes in soreness and tightness scores were found in horses carrying 30% of their body weight (Powell et al. 2008). On the other hand, Sloet van Oldruitenborgh-Oosterbaan et al. (1995) showed that a load between 12.6% and 16.3% of the horse's body weight influenced heart rate and blood lactate concentration compared with the horse working unloaded in the case of Dutch Warmblood horses at trot on a treadmill. ...
... The estimation in the present study agrees with the results obtained by Powell et al. (2008) and the rule of the Japanese Imperial Army and is lower than results obtained by Hadrill (2002). Estimation by the RDA Japan, which is between 16% and 17%, is much lower than our estimation, probably because of the consideration for safety of both the disabled rider and the side-walker who helps the rider from both sides of the horse. ...”

”... However, some riders of Icelandic horses weigh over 100 kg, corresponding to~30% to 35% of BW (Stefánsdóttir et al., 2014). Powell et al. (2008) showed that horses carrying a rider corresponding to 25% or 30% of their BW had higher heart rate (HR), breathing frequency (BF) and rectal temperature (RT) than when carrying a rider corresponding to 15% and 20% of their BW. Therefore it is a welfare issue to create knowledge on how the BW of a rider affects physiological response to exercise in the Icelandic horse. ...”

 

[sbloom]

What they didn't address was the effect on compensatory movement patterns, which is what I see, and what causes more problems than those medical issues I would say. Definitely good to take note of, but far from the whole picture.

I have been to a saddle fitting for a 14" saddle on a show pony where a child rider was not available. A petite adult rode and it's the only time I've seen a horse's knees buckle at one of my saddle fittings. I got her straight off. They had assured me she'd been riding her fine 3 times a week for 20 minutes. If the rider had been a stone lighter the knees might not have buckled, but there would have been negative effects that were less obvious.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I am sorry but which planet are you on? Most people, even slim people on slim horses would object to that.There will be a lot of empty shows!

And who is going to be monitoring the weighing? Most shows have enough trouble finding judges, stewards and entry takers without trying to find someone to tell competitors that they/their horse is overweight. Judges can make their selection based on a visual assessment of appropriateness, if they so choose.


Eta I do think that some people could/should choose their weight carriers more carefully (not aimed specifically at anyone on here)

 

[Barton Bounty]

In contrast to your post THO, this is me at 5'7 and 13.5stone on my 18.3hh warmblood. I am very long legged, and he was very narrow.. plus I have an air jacket and a racesafe on. I have picked one taken at a similar angle to yours just to highlight how not that different the two photos look in terms of overall rider fit...

View attachment 96233

and for those who say he wasn't 18.3, as there's always some - here he is next to the 5ft8 physio lady..
View attachment 96234

Holy moly! He is a big big boy Stunning ? look at the size of his head ?
What size of shoes does he wear?
My tb has tiny feet for a big horse lol only a 3 ?

 

[SmallPony]

[

What they didn't address was the effect on compensatory movement patterns, which is what I see, and what causes more problems than those medical issues I would say. Definitely good to take note of, but far from the whole picture.

I have been to a saddle fitting for a 14" saddle on a show pony where a child rider was not available. A petite adult rode and it's the only time I've seen a horse's knees buckle at one of my saddle fittings. I got her straight off. They had assured me she'd been riding her fine 3 times a week for 20 minutes. If the rider had been a stone lighter the knees might not have buckled, but there would have been negative effects that were less obvious.

If the rider had a stone to lose, I'm not sure I would say they are truly petite in the first place?

I am 7.5 stone and have ridden small ponies for the past 15 years - I am conscious of my weight on them so I don't jump or ride for long periods, but if the alternative is a life in the field not being ridden, getting bored, fat and laminitic? As you say, there is the wider picture to consider.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Holy moly! He is a big big boy Stunning ? look at the size of his head ?
What size of shoes does he wear?
My tb has tiny feet for a big horse lol only a 3 ?

Thank you, sadly I lost him last year but he was just the best boy, I miss him everyday. He was in 7ft6 rugs, XF headcollar/brushing boots etc and my farrier often used to say I was lucky as one size bigger on his shoes and I would be paying his heavy horse premium. ?

 

[Barton Bounty]

Thank you, sadly I lost him last year but he was just the best boy, I miss him everyday. He was in 7ft6 rugs, XF headcollar/brushing boots etc and my farrier often used to say I was lucky as one size bigger on his shoes and I would be paying his heavy horse premium. ?

Aww im sorry to hear that ??‍
I had a 17.2 han. His rugs were 7’/7’3 it was murder trying to get them on, my hubby made me a mounting block with three steps rather than two just to get on ? had one at home and one at the yard for when I had a pee stop at home ?

 

[jnb]

I dare not say what I think about yet another thread bashing / goading anyone who dares to be over size 16. Which is over 50% of the female population.
I'm already almost suicidal about my weight and my horse's lameness (not related to my weight although WHY should I have to even link them?)
People are so bloody cruel