Should there be a weight limit for people at shows (and if so, what and how?!)

[Squeak]

I have been shocked by some of the riders I've seen showing recently and on completely inappropriate horses. I was also surprised by the size of some of the horses and riders that were eventing.

I don't know what the answer is but I don't think I remember it being such an issue (bar adults warming up ponies) in the past. As I said previously, I really do empathise with the riders as it can be so hard to get weight down.

 

[palo1]

Major flaw in that Palo. The fatter the horse the bigger the weigh tape will say they can carry. Whereas in reality the less they should carry given they are lugging around their own flab. As we all know from the show ring, evaluation of overweight horses isn’t so straightforward either ?

Yes I get that; I was sort of assuming that overweight horses were not the issue here but I guess you could have a formal conditioning score too.

 

[eahotson]

No guilty conscience. Some horses are weight carriers. This was me around 18.2 stone (I'm 5ft 9 1/2") with my previous 17.1hh MW WB. I don't think I look too heavy. I look big but not too big. And all I did was hack twice a week for 20 mins. I've since lost around 1.5 stone stone.

View attachment 96207

You look fine to me.

 

[eahotson]

You look fine to me.

and your horse looks happy.

 

[Birker2020]

(I cannot simply believe someone who is, say, >17st, who gets on a living animal's back, is not aware of the negative impact they are having due to simple naivety.)

Wow how judgemental. If that was directed at me (or people who are plus 17 stone) I'd like to say its not like I'm some couch potato that never does anything, I'm more active than most people I know, swimming and spinning practically every night at the gym, mucking out and poo picking. I don't ride and that's had a big input on my weight gain as had the medication I take (2 of the drugs cause weight gain) and the sedentary job that I have. I don't sit there all day cramming McDonalds and cream cakes down my gob!

But I don't see how if a horse is a weight carrier that I am causing any detriment to it. My previous horse had arthritic issues when I was a size 14 and weighed 12 stone, she didn't suddenly develop them because I put on weight the last couple of years of her life!

I'm certainly not ignorant and you shouldn't look down on people because they don't fit into the 'size 10' idealistic view.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Found that comment very judgmental too, muscle weights heavier than fat any normal person knows that!

I am not a size 10 either and never will be?

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Wow how judgemental. If that was directed at me (or people who are plus 17 stone) I'd like to say its not like I'm some couch potato that never does anything, I'm more active than most people I know, swimming and spinning practically every night at the gym, mucking out and poo picking. I don't ride and that's had a big input on my weight gain as had the medication I take (2 of the drugs cause weight gain) and the sedentary job that I have. I don't sit there all day cramming McDonalds and cream cakes down my gob!

But I don't see how if a horse is a weight carrier that I am causing any detriment to it. My previous horse had arthritic issues when I was a size 14 and weighed 12 stone, she didn't suddenly develop them because I put on weight the last couple of years of her life!

I'm certainly not ignorant and you shouldn't look down on people because they don't fit into the 'size 10' idealistic view.

Found that comment very judgmental too, muscle weights heavier than fat any normal person knows that!

I am not a size 10 either and never will be?

The problem is that muscle vs fat is a completely irrelevant argument - 17 stone is 17 stone and you are still concentrating that amount of weight through a 17.5inch portion of a living animals spine; and that's not considering that that weight is concentrated down through two small panels of about 30cm2 on the bottom of the saddle, so is much more weight per cm2 than it would first seem. No-one is commenting on your lifestyle, or calling you lazy, or ignoring the fact that there might be mitigating circumstances. You have to remove the 'take it personally' part of the emotion from this conversation and have a frank and factual discussion about what is best for the animal.

There is a completely undeniable link between weight and bone/soft tissue degeneration in every mammal that has ever walked the earth. Look at fat dogs, fat humans, humans who carry heavy loads all their lives eg: scaffolders, and yes in horses. Anecdotal evidence but there are also studies, one such study is called 'Effect of weight carried on back pain and stride length in horses' which confirms this. The fact that you are completely unwilling to admit or even consider that you will have a detrimental effect on a horse compared to say someone who is 10 stone, is where I can see that the original poster was saying it's naive.

From what I have seen, you are both lovely posters and lovely people, but you have to retain the ability to have a rational and emotionless conversation about all factors affecting the welfare of horses if you wish for constant progression and change in this area. I am 16 stone, I will never be a size 10 and I understand the importance of this discussion, despite wanting nothing more than to ride - so please don't tell me I'm judgemental or some skinny person who doesn't know how hard it is. I find it hard to lose weight due to failed hip surgery that I have spoken on this forum about before, so you are preaching to the choir with all of your reasoning.

 

[Dexter]

Wow how judgemental. If that was directed at me (or people who are plus 17 stone) I'd like to say its not like I'm some couch potato that never does anything, I'm more active than most people I know, swimming and spinning practically every night at the gym, mucking out and poo picking. I don't ride and that's had a big input on my weight gain as had the medication I take (2 of the drugs cause weight gain) and the sedentary job that I have. I don't sit there all day cramming McDonalds and cream cakes down my gob!

But I don't see how if a horse is a weight carrier that I am causing any detriment to it. My previous horse had arthritic issues when I was a size 14 and weighed 12 stone, she didn't suddenly develop them because I put on weight the last couple of years of her life!

I'm certainly not ignorant and you shouldn't look down on people because they don't fit into the 'size 10' idealistic view.

It's not about fitting into a size 10, it's about putting 20 plus stone on a horse's back. If you are in excess of 18 stone, then you add 2 and a half stone for tack, then you are looking at nearly 21 stone. That is too much. And to have an arthritic horse carry that just makes it much worse.

Losing weight is very difficult sometimes, so you have my sympathies. Its not a judgment on you or what you look like or eat etc. Its the fact that 21 stone is too much for any horse. The pressure down through the saddle must be immense.

You don't have to ride, there are other things you can do with your horse.

 

[Barton Bounty]

The problem is that muscle vs fat is a completely irrelevant argument - 17 stone is 17 stone and you are still concentrating that amount of weight through a 17.5inch portion of a living animals spine; and that's not considering that that weight is concentrated down through two small panels of about 30cm2 on the bottom of the saddle, so is much more weight per cm2 than it would first seem. No-one is commenting on your lifestyle, or calling you lazy, or ignoring the fact that there might be mitigating circumstances. You have to remove the 'take it personally' part of the emotion from this conversation and have a frank and factual discussion about what is best for the animal.

There is a completely undeniable link between weight and bone/soft tissue degeneration in every mammal that has ever walked the earth. Look at fat dogs, fat humans, humans who carry heavy loads all their lives eg: scaffolders, and yes in horses. Anecdotal evidence but there are also studies, one such study is called 'Effect of weight carried on back pain and stride length in horses' which confirms this. The fact that you are completely unwilling to admit or even consider that you will have a detrimental effect on a horse compared to say someone who is 10 stone, is where I can see that the original poster was saying it's naive.

From what I have seen, you are both lovely posters and lovely people, but you have to retain the ability to have a rational and emotionless conversation about all factors affecting the welfare of horses if you wish for constant progression and change in this area.

seems like it has now become a personal attack rather than answering a question!

I am a lovely poster because I am not a negative person
Oh my how i laughed at that, you do not know me personally nor do you know what I am thinking we are in an open forum! I am NOT too heavy for my horse im within my 20% satisfactorily.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
The original post has now diverted from asking for peoples opinion, to yourself picking out other peoples post and micro managing them, its not needed and not required to be honest! I am well aware of how it would look and it would not be right for a 20 stone person on a 15.2.
We do not always have to agree on our posts and we are all entitled to agree and disagree, without singling people out!!

Let people have their opinion And have a wonderful day!

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

seems like it has now become a personal attack rather than answering a question!

I am a lovely poster because I am not a negative person
Oh my how i laughed at that, you do not know me personally nor do you know what I am thinking we are in an open forum! I am NOT too heavy for my horse im within my 20% satisfactorily.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
The original post has now diverted from asking for peoples opinion, to yourself picking out other peoples post and micro managing them, its not needed and not required to be honest! I am well aware of how it would look and it would not be right for a 20 stone person on a 15.2.
We do not always have to agree on our posts and we are all entitled to agree and disagree, without singling people out!!

Let people have their opinion And have a wonderful day!

It was a colloquial 'you' not a you personally, I also sincerely apologise for saying that come across as a lovely person, I didn't realise that this would also be seen as a personal attack

 

[eahotson]

My vet never mentions human weight on horses but she does say that if horses were allowed to move naturally she wouldn't have to run round injecting hocks all the time.I have the new cob who has a fabulous walk and is soft and supple.Farrier says it's because she is straight.He added that most of the horses in our yard are crooked.Nearly all have owners trained by someone who was trained by someone quite big in the dressage world.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Not really but when you single out peoples posts for having an opinion it does feel personal, like I say people comment etc some people on here are brutal! Just really shouldnt bother posting cause everything that they post is negative.
When people type stuff it comes across differently .
Everyone is entitled to their opinion it is whether you choose to read it and scroll on or pick it out that makes the difference

 

[AntiPuck]

I would agree that there should be weight limits at shows, as it would at least send a message, even if people could and would do what they liked at home.

There are many sports where you could be as big as you liked and only be impacting yourself, but when you choose to engage in a sport whereby another animal has to carry you around with little choice in the matter, it's not at all harmless to be so heavy.

 

[Upthecreek]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it is a fact that it is better for a horse, no matter how large or small, to carry less weight. Just because there is a maximum weight the horse *should* be capable of carrying, that doesn’t mean it is good for it to be carrying up to that maximum weight. Whether someone weighs 10 stone or 18 stone surely they can admit that?

It is a privilege to ride a horse and we should do everything we can to make the experience as comfortable for them as possible.

 

[Regandal]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion it is whether you choose to read it and scroll on or pick it out that makes the difference

We have to separate opinions from facts. It is proven fact that carrying a heavy weight shortens a horses’ stride and stresses the joints. We can acknowledge that fact or ignore it.

 

[SpotsandBays]

Yes I get that; I was sort of assuming that overweight horses were not the issue here but I guess you could have a formal conditioning score too.

I wonder if that could be backed up by a expert though? Somebody who could determine what an overweight horses ideal weight should roughly be, and then take the % for rider allowance from that ideal?

 

[Barton Bounty]

Yea i do , and I agree there should be a weight limit! It would be wrong to put someone of 20 stone on a lean 15.2. I thought the point of commenting was to air your opinion, not state facts. I was under the impression it was discussion. ??‍

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I wonder if that could be backed up by a expert though? Somebody who could determine what an overweight horses ideal weight should roughly be, and then take the % for rider allowance from that ideal?

Well people turn up hours early for a show, could you not whack the horse and then the rider on a weighbridge before the class? You would need a vet or nutritionist to say 'horse's ideal would be 50kg lighter than this' but it would go a long way to help I would think.

 

[Upthecreek]

Yea i do , and I agree there should be a weight limit! It would be wrong to put someone of 20 stone on a lean 15.2. I thought the point of commenting was to air your opinion, not state facts. I was under the impression it was discussion. ??‍

It is a discussion but opinions are largely formed on people’s individual circumstances and experiences so I feel that facts make a useful contribution to these kind of discussions as well ?

 

[scats]

The problem is, the issue of weight always causes very emotive responses and people avoid confronting the issue, whereas in reality, there is animal welfare to think of and that should override everything else, including peoples feelings.
As someone has stated, riding horses is a privilege and we should always try to be in the best condition that we can if we are going to expect another animal to carry us.
I am a slim person, but I have to work very hard and go without to stay this way. I take a medication that is scientifically proven to slow the metabolism and if I’m not careful, the weight will creep on. I have to go hungry a lot of the time and limit myself when it comes to food and snacks. It can be miserable, I’m not going to lie, but I do feel it’s my duty to stay as light as I can to ride my horses.

 

[eahotson]

Well people turn up hours early for a show, could you not whack the horse and then the rider on a weighbridge before the class? You would need a vet or nutritionist to say 'horse's ideal would be 50kg lighter than this' but it would go a long way to help I would think.

I am sorry but which planet are you on? Most people, even slim people on slim horses would object to that.There will be a lot of empty shows!

 

[FieldOrnaments]

Wow how judgemental. If that was directed at me (or people who are plus 17 stone) I'd like to say its not like I'm some couch potato that never does anything, I'm more active than most people I know, swimming and spinning practically every night at the gym, mucking out and poo picking. I don't ride and that's had a big input on my weight gain as had the medication I take (2 of the drugs cause weight gain) and the sedentary job that I have. I don't sit there all day cramming McDonalds and cream cakes down my gob!

But I don't see how if a horse is a weight carrier that I am causing any detriment to it. My previous horse had arthritic issues when I was a size 14 and weighed 12 stone, she didn't suddenly develop them because I put on weight the last couple of years of her life!

I'm certainly not ignorant and you shouldn't look down on people because they don't fit into the 'size 10' idealistic view.

With all due respect, I don't care what size people are and never have done. I do care if their insistence on getting on an animal's back regardless of their size compromises that animal's welfare - as should anyone who has anything to do with horses.
Believing, and saying, that a rider's choices should not have a negative impact on their animal is not judgemental. It's a fact.
I'm sorry that my words upset you but I don't see what is so offensive about saying that we have a duty of care towards these beautiful animals and should do our best to maximise their health and wellbeing.

 

[sbloom]

This is a minefield. I recommend @rebelfit t anyone who would like to be healthier, and part of that may be weight loss, but his team and his "Missions" are incredibly supportive of mental health and anti diet culture. Don't go to commercial diet companies that's for sure!

My vet never mentions human weight on horses but she does say that if horses were allowed to move naturally she wouldn't have to run round injecting hocks all the time.I have the new cob who has a fabulous walk and is soft and supple.Farrier says it's because she is straight.He added that most of the horses in our yard are crooked.Nearly all have owners trained by someone who was trained by someone quite big in the dressage world.

Yep, if they're straight then it's likely their thoracic sling is lifted. We all KNOW that they're not designed to carry us but the penny often doesn't drop fully. They are crooked by nature because it keeps them alive, that split second to gallop off on one lead, rather than the brain having to choose, can make all the difference. Then we take their natural crookedness, lunge them for a couple of weeks, and ask them to take the equivalent of us carrying 2-4 stones on our back, and do all sorts of fancy schmancy movements, or challenging terrain, or leap over fences. We don't CHANGE their bodies so that they're "better" than they would be in the wild. Saddle fitting, as a follow on, is ALWAYS mitigation, we cannot make a horse move better, we can only hope to stop them moving worse than unmounted. And I do see a correlation between rider weight and things like hock problems, as well as adipose tissue damage under the saddle, and tension in the lumbar area.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it is a fact that it is better for a horse, no matter how large or small, to carry less weight. Just because there is a maximum weight the horse *should* be capable of carrying, that doesn’t mean it is good for it to be carrying up to that maximum weight. Whether someone weighs 10 stone or 18 stone surely they can admit that?

It is a privilege to ride a horse and we should do everything we can to make the experience as comfortable for them as possible.

Exactly. But I will never ever judge someone for the weight. We just have to have a better understanding of the very nature of a horse's physiology, why it is how it is, and how we're asking a lot for them to carry anyone at all.

 

[Barton Bounty]

So the post started off as pondering…

 

[Steerpike]

In endurance, I don’t think it’d be particularly necessary as the horses get vet checked. Presumably, a horse that’s seriously overloaded wouldn’t recover in time.

With other disciplines, I’d like to see stewards pull up riders who look too big, and for that decision to then be disputed using a generous 20/25% rule (surely, even a very fit weight carrier shouldn’t be carrying more than that?). But, logistically, I can’t imagine that happening, just wouldn’t be practical. You’d either be pulling people beforehand, disrupting their warm up, or afterwards, at which point the horse has already had to struggle through it.

FEI endurance is the only equine sport (barring racing) that has a minimum weight, 3* is 75kg 2* and 1* is 70kg off the top of my head the weight includes saddle and breast plate

 

[SpotsandBays]

I am sorry but which planet are you on? Most people, even slim people on slim horses would object to that.There will be a lot of empty shows!

Why do you think that?
I wouldn’t have an issue with this, providing I was made aware before hand so could ensure I arrive at a venue with plenty of time.
I think it would be difficult for smaller shows to do it for sure, but the weighing of horses and expert advice before hand could also help with the equine obesity crisis, would it not?

 

[Birker2020]

The problem is that muscle vs fat is a completely irrelevant argument - 17 stone is 17 stone and you are still concentrating that amount of weight through a 17.5inch portion of a living animals spine; and that's not considering that that weight is concentrated down through two small panels of about 30cm2 on the bottom of the saddle, so is much more weight per cm2 than it would first seem. No-one is commenting on your lifestyle, or calling you lazy, or ignoring the fact that there might be mitigating circumstances. You have to remove the 'take it personally' part of the emotion from this conversation and have a frank and factual discussion about what is best for the animal.

There is a completely undeniable link between weight and bone/soft tissue degeneration in every mammal that has ever walked the earth. Look at fat dogs, fat humans, humans who carry heavy loads all their lives eg: scaffolders, and yes in horses. Anecdotal evidence but there are also studies, one such study is called 'Effect of weight carried on back pain and stride length in horses' which confirms this. The fact that you are completely unwilling to admit or even consider that you will have a detrimental effect on a horse compared to say someone who is 10 stone, is where I can see that the original poster was saying it's naive.

From what I have seen, you are both lovely posters and lovely people, but you have to retain the ability to have a rational and emotionless conversation about all factors affecting the welfare of horses if you wish for constant progression and change in this area. I am 16 stone, I will never be a size 10 and I understand the importance of this discussion, despite wanting nothing more than to ride - so please don't tell me I'm judgemental or some skinny person who doesn't know how hard it is. I find it hard to lose weight due to failed hip surgery that I have spoken on this forum about before, so you are preaching to the choir with all of your reasoning.

Well its irrelevant to me as I'm not riding and probably won't be able to ride my horse (who has arthritis but obviously not due to rider weight as he's been professionally produced and competed with a string of lightweight riders) but interesting comments nevertheless.

I think a more interesting conversation about overworking horses at aged 3, 4 and 5 which can a) cause and b) speed up degenerative changes is more worthwhile imho.

 

[Birker2020]

It's not about fitting into a size 10, it's about putting 20 plus stone on a horse's back. If you are in excess of 18 stone, then you add 2 and a half stone for tack, then you are looking at nearly 21 stone. That is too much. And to have an arthritic horse carry that just makes it much worse.

Losing weight is very difficult sometimes, so you have my sympathies. Its not a judgment on you or what you look like or eat etc. Its the fact that 21 stone is too much for any horse. The pressure down through the saddle must be immense.

You don't have to ride, there are other things you can do with your horse.

I'm quite aware that there are other things I can do with my horse, I spent half her life 'doing other things'. I would love to ride the horse in question but it was PTS in June last year so not really going to happen.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I am sorry but which planet are you on? Most people, even slim people on slim horses would object to that.There will be a lot of empty shows!

Yeah good point, I mean.. it would undeniably help but it would also be a very unpopular method!
I would rather be judged on what a scale says than someone saying 'you look too big' though.. it's the only way to remove as much subjectiveness from the topic as possible.
At the end of the day, the only real way of doing anything about it and not having profits suffer for 'your' event, is to rely on the self awareness of the rider/owner.. and that's about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

 

[stangs]

Out of curiosity, driving folk, is there any talk in those disciplines about not asking the horse to pull too much or shows monitoring the weight they’re pulling? I see a lot of small ponies pulling what looks to me like a bit much to be doing strenuous exercise at the same time.