Should there be a weight limit for people at shows (and if so, what and how?!)

[PurBee]

I carried a rucksack mounted piece of agricultural equipment today on my back that is 20% my weight - in use i mostly am stationary, shuffling around very small slow steps. When i finished 1 hr of that i then walked normal pace 100m to the horses gate to bring them in. By the time i got to them i was exhausted by that 100m walk with that weight on my back, and was reminded of this thread.

We’re lucky, having an upright spine. My shoulders still ache 2 hrs later, im fit and ‘healthy’. I dont look sore , unhappy or exhausted, and if i was a horse that couldnt speak and tell you my muscles ache, youd put the rucksack on me tomorrow - and being fit, i would manage it, but accumulation of muscle soreness is what i personally experience from repetitive physical exercise, so prefer to switch jobs, so i dont experience too much muscle pain. A bit like how we hack, then do flat work, then jumping, to allow horses to work different muscle groups, while recovering from previous days work - but the saddle and rider weight dont change day to day and those muscles are therefore most important to look after and the associated biomechanics of the rest of their physical structures.

This thread made me consider how i would have managed that weight on my back if i was on all fours, with my spine acting as a suspension bridge rather than an upright pillar, i dont think i could have used the machinery for more than 5 mins tbh! 10% would have been far easier in either position.
Its astounding the weight horses can carry, and because of them being so compliant mostly towards mankind, its easy for us to abuse their willingness to ‘indulge’ us.

Human weight struggles is a complex subject and it would be sooo easy if calories were all we had to watch to reach ideal weight. Ive known very over weight friends starve to reach (non equine) goals, and get nowhere. Its heartbreaking to be in that position with personal body weight. The issue of how much weight a horse can comfortably carry should never be taken personally. This is soley about understanding what a horse can comfortably carry on its back, be that a person, or any other load, so their health and physical structure isn’t damaged by the load.
This discussion is essentially about equine biomechanics, and if we come to understand that to a precise degree, should we enforce that knowledge in the equine riding industry for horse welfare reasons? I personally believe we should because i value equines, and support changes in the industry that improves their welfare on health grounds, whether i was 20 or 6 stone. My weight is irrelevant to this discussion, this is about horses.

 

[Ali27]

I’ve got the most amazing cob x 14.2 who is a little chunky, pocket rocket! I always had a 10 stone weight limit with her but shockingly my weight crept up to 10.8 stone! I’m 5ft 6 so wasn’t massively overweight! I was already doing the gym 3-4 times a week, riding 5-6 times a week and a generally active life style! I signed up with a different gym and did an 8 week transformation programme! I lost over a stone! Now 9 stone 6 and pony much happier! I had to completely overhaul my eating! I cut out all junk food, alcohol and added lots of protein to meals//snacks. It was so easy to do and I love being back to a size 8//0 and that my pony is much happier ?

 

[Winters100]

Have you read any of the stuff we've posted about it's NOT calories in, calories out? If it's a choice, making the right choice is 100 times easier for some people than others, people should not be beaten up for having it harder than others, they should be understood and helped. You're just making people feel worse.

I totally agree that getting to and maintaining a healthy weight is much easier for some than others, but I do not think that anyone here is beating others up about their weight. If you are too heavy for the horse then you are just too heavy, does not matter whether the extra weight is fat, or muscle from body-building, it is just a fact that animals, just as humans, have limits to what they can do without pain.

Regarding calories in / calories out I would consider it to be a fact. After all if not then in famine situations some would not lose weight. Of course it is more difficult for some, and I truly understand this as I am able to consume relatively few calories and hardly any carbs to stay at the weight that I want to be, but the fact remains that we do choose what we eat. There are all sorts of reasons that this is difficult to people, and those who struggle with it have my sympathy, but we make choices every day with our horses, whether to ride, which saddle, which bit, how much turnout - they choose none of these things, so the least we can do is to keep their interests at heart when making our decisions.

 

[Regandal]

The book ‘Glucose Revolution’ by Jessie Inchaupsie is illuminating. Everyone should read it, whether you want to lose weight or not. The link between insulin spikes and adverse health conditions is well documented and she gives lots of easy hacks to avoid them. I should be on commission, I recommend it to everyone I know ?

 

[southerncomfort]

On Genes people had the same Genes in the fifties and looking at news film reel is enlightening .
I used to collect China from the 1950s the plate sizes also tell a tale

I was thinking about this recently.

We bought a new dinner set and some matching pasta bowls. The dinner plates are huge, we can barely fit them in the dishwasher!

I hadn't realised how much pasta we'd been eating until I tipped the contents of a pasta bowl on to an older standard sized dinner plate!

I suspect a lot of people do eat very healthily but don't realise the huge portions they're eating through no fault of their own.

Other things like a takeout coffee can add significantly to your daily calories.

I also completely disagree with the person who said that exercise isn't relevant to losing weight. If I've had a week where I haven't been for my usual walks or gone for a run I notice my weight starting to creep up.

Also, exercise has so many other benefits from lower risk of heart problems, cancer etc to improved mental health. I think it's hugely important.

Regarding horses maybe as a start a pre purchase vetting could include the vets opinion on maximum weight the horse could carry.

 

[danda]

What actions do you take if your horse is overweight? Try the same for yourself if you are overweight .

 

[PapaverFollis]

You can disagree all you like about the importance of exercise in weightloss but what comes out of research is that it isnt very! I never said it wasn't beneficial either. It is very important for health. Everyone should probably exercise more. It is just not a huge contributer to weight loss. Especially if you end up eating to fuel it, or drinking "sports drinks". For some people it is more effective as they don't get the drive to eat more to compensate for the exercise. But most people will get an increase in appetite. And since half an hour of most types of exercise only burns about 300 calories it is very easy to just eat away the potential weight loss without even noticing. Even if you count calories because those things are pretty darn inaccurate.

The main thing I got out of reading the Tim Spector book is that everyone is different. So maybe you're an exercise responder who doesn't get an over-compensation in appetite for the work done in exercise. But for many people they do get that and exercise has little effect.

I lost about half a stone just from running to start with but then it started to creep back on even as I was increasing the amount I was doing. I didn't shift the other two stone until I seriously tackled my diet. And while I was dieting I stopped running completely and picked it up again once I'd lost the weight... running much faster for the same effort as well. Now I think of it as keeping the weight off in order to run, rather than running to keep the weight off and have managed to curb the over-compensatory eating I was doing. I can do the running I do without any extra food. I'm not relying on carbs for energy in the same way as I was. I'm not getting sugar crashes on long runs or walks. I'd started having to take a cereal bar with me on a six mile walk previously! Such was the rubbishness of my sugar metabolism! Now I can run nine miles without even needing a drink of water. Or eating anything extra before or after.

Fundamental changes. Our whole food environment and knowledge base is so screwy. It is uncomfortable to realise this. I have spent a lot of years banging the calories in vs calories out drum. I've also spent a lot of years getting fatter and fatter no matter how hard I tried... or how much exercise I did.

It's fine to disagree and I understand why. Exercise IS very important and beneficial in lots of ways. It doesn't make sense that it wouldn't help. Of course it helps, surely. Unfortunately that's not what research points to. :-/ I half don't believe it myself to be honest but as a statement it appears to be well supported by the data.

 

[Miss_Millie]

The videos on Blog of a Cob's page are sad to watch. It looks like a lot of her weight is hitting the back of the cantle and in some of the footage, the horses do look short behind imo.

Like many others have said, pointing out that someone is too big or heavy for their horse is not personal or fat shaming. It is a welfare issue if a horse is made to carry a rider that is not the appropriate size for their backs.

Ray the Goth's cob is overweight, having to carry a rider who is too heavy on top of carrying her own excess bodyweight must be such a strain.

It worries me that anyone who points this out, is immediately shut down as being a nasty fat shamer. These conversations need to be had, for the sake of many horses who are burdened with too heavy a rider.

 

[eahotson]

I carried a rucksack mounted piece of agricultural equipment today on my back that is 20% my weight - in use i mostly am stationary, shuffling around very small slow steps. When i finished 1 hr of that i then walked normal pace 100m to the horses gate to bring them in. By the time i got to them i was exhausted by that 100m walk with that weight on my back, and was reminded of this thread.

We’re lucky, having an upright spine. My shoulders still ache 2 hrs later, im fit and ‘healthy’. I dont look sore , unhappy or exhausted, and if i was a horse that couldnt speak and tell you my muscles ache, youd put the rucksack on me tomorrow - and being fit, i would manage it, but accumulation of muscle soreness is what i personally experience from repetitive physical exercise, so prefer to switch jobs, so i dont experience too much muscle pain. A bit like how we hack, then do flat work, then jumping, to allow horses to work different muscle groups, while recovering from previous days work - but the saddle and rider weight dont change day to day and those muscles are therefore most important to look after and the associated biomechanics of the rest of their physical structures.

This thread made me consider how i would have managed that weight on my back if i was on all fours, with my spine acting as a suspension bridge rather than an upright pillar, i dont think i could have used the machinery for more than 5 mins tbh! 10% would have been far easier in either position.
Its astounding the weight horses can carry, and because of them being so compliant mostly towards mankind, its easy for us to abuse their willingness to ‘indulge’ us.

Human weight struggles is a complex subject and it would be sooo easy if calories were all we had to watch to reach ideal weight. Ive known very over weight friends starve to reach (non equine) goals, and get nowhere. Its heartbreaking to be in that position with personal body weight. The issue of how much weight a horse can comfortably carry should never be taken personally. This is soley about understanding what a horse can comfortably carry on its back, be that a person, or any other load, so their health and physical structure isn’t damaged by the load.
This discussion is essentially about equine biomechanics, and if we come to understand that to a precise degree, should we enforce that knowledge in the equine riding industry for horse welfare reasons? I personally believe we should because i value equines, and support changes in the industry that improves their welfare on health grounds, whether i was 20 or 6 stone. My weight is irrelevant to this discussion, this is about horses.

Most of us are a) Not that fit. To put it in proportion my mother, second world war generation remembered her teacher walking five miles to the school each day and five miles back and then of course did other walking and activities.No one would have thought that was exceptional at the time.
Secondly very fit soldiers can carry 20% of their body weight easily but they are very fit and have been conditioned to do it.
Most sensible people wouldn't take a newly backed horse and expect it to do an hours hack or schooling.

 

[stangs]

Most sensible people wouldn't take a newly backed horse and expect it to do an hours hack or schooling.

But people do expect a newly backed horse to carry 20% of its body weight just like that, with no conditioning to learn to carry weight on what is a seriously vulnerable part of the body when the horse is unable to lift their back.

That's like if people tried to build up their biceps by only increasing the number of curls, but using 40kg from the beginning. No human athlete in their right mind would follow such a workout plan, and yet this is how we train equine athletes.

The vast majority of modern horses aren't in the cavalry, so why do owners still use these military methods, which were designed for a time where horses needed to get trained quick, and were largely disposable?

 

[Glitter's fun]

Take it as read that I empathise about your weight issues ... Anyhoooow.....
"Should there be a weight limit for people at shows"
An example
If Connemaras are required to remain 14-2 or shorter and are kept at an appropriate weight so they don’t develop laminitis, it’s safe to assume they are in the 750- to 800-pound range. (American Connemara soc. )
This gives a combined rider & tack weight of 160 lbs maximum(20%).
(Figures based on the Japanese Vet. School data quoted in previous posts.)
Take off a medium weight saddle & the ballpark is a maximum dressed rider weight of 10 stone 10lbs.
(This is an absolute maximum & for showing not jumping)

Yes enforcement would be a nightmare but would it be necessary? Don't you think that if the show entry had a weight limit on it that most people would self-police rather than risk being pulled out of the ring to be weighed? I do think most people have no idea what weight their horse can comfortably carry & giving out some (even vague) numbers would help.

 

[eahotson]

But people do expect a newly backed horse to carry 20% of its body weight just like that, with no conditioning to learn to carry weight on what is a seriously vulnerable part of the body when the horse is unable to lift their back.

That's like if people tried to build up their biceps by only increasing the number of curls, but using 40kg from the beginning. No human athlete in their right mind would follow such a workout plan, and yet this is how we train equine athletes.

The vast majority of modern horses aren't in the cavalry, so why do owners still use these military methods, which were designed for a time where horses needed to get trained quick, and were largely disposable?

They shouldn't be if the top line has been properly prepared.The cavalary were very good horsemen.

 

[Cortez]

But people do expect a newly backed horse to carry 20% of its body weight just like that, with no conditioning to learn to carry weight on what is a seriously vulnerable part of the body when the horse is unable to lift their back.

The vast majority of modern horses aren't in the cavalry, so why do owners still use these military methods, which were designed for a time where horses needed to get trained quick, and were largely disposable?

Horses being properly prepared for breaking won’t have “no conditioning”, they should undergo at least several weeks of unmounted gymnastics training aimed at working the muscles - and particularly the back and loin muscles - in preparation for carrying a light rider.

Cavalry training was developed to produce useable mounts, and far from being “quick” was actually considerably longer than most modern breaking regimes.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

A local professional dressage rider has started a new clothing range and the marketing is very focused at riders of all sizes. For a brand to succeed they have to be seen to include larger riders in their advertising now,
.

To be fair I don't think that making larger riding clothes is a huge problem as someone who is a size 16 and 5ft could easily be 13 stone or less.. If they're a size 16 and 6ft then it is likely that they will be too heavy to ride.. also someone may be a 16 on the bottom due to carrying weight on their hips, but then be a size 10 on top with slim arms and trunk. We need to be conscious that we don't equate size to weight, people can be very different shapes and be the same weight.

Also calories in vs calories out is fact, it is physics.. not opinion or a diet concept.. If you manipulate the calories in by changing food group, or you need less calories in because you are menopausal and your metabolism has changed, that is still calories in vs calories out (or a calorie deficit). Intermittent fasting, the blood sugar diet, low carb, low fat, keto, increasing exercise etc etc is all just varying ways of creating a calorie deficit, or shifting the balance of the calories in vs out. Just because something in your body dictates that balance, it doesn't mean that the scientific equation changes.

 

[Barton Bounty]

To be fair I don't think that making larger riding clothes is a huge problem as someone who is a size 16 and 5ft could easily be 13 stone or less.. If they're a size 16 and 6ft then it is likely that they will be too heavy to ride.. also someone may be a 16 on the bottom due to carrying weight on their hips, but then be a size 10 on top with slim arms and trunk. We need to be conscious that we don't equate size to weight, people can be very different shapes and be the same weight.

Also calories in vs calories out is fact, it is physics.. not opinion or a diet concept.. If you manipulate the calories in by changing food group, or you need less calories in because you are menopausal and your metabolism has changed, that is still calories in vs calories out (or a calorie deficit). Intermittent fasting, the blood sugar diet, low carb, low fat, keto, increasing exercise etc etc is all just varying ways of creating a calorie deficit, or shifting the balance of the calories in vs out. Just because something in your body dictates that balance, it doesn't mean that the scientific equation changes.

☝?Thats me, the short one ?

 

[marmalade76]

I wonder how much the minimum weight limit is as a % of those Diddy lean Arabs…!

That's the thing, lb for lb, arabs and ponies are stronger than bigger animals and are probably more comfortable and more more likely to stay sound carrying the top of the weight percentage whereas something bigger, taller & heavier quite prossibly would not.

 

[teapot]

I do wonder whether we (as a group of humans) need educating in what weight can actually look like?

I’m tall, relatively slim, but with my riding kit on would be just over 13 stone at the moment, which in theory would rule me out of riding at a fair few riding schools. Though if you saw me, very few would say I’d be that weight?

And yes, I did on occasion have to say no to people who has booked their first lesson, only to be far heavier than what they’d said at time of booking. It’s horrible but horses first at end of the day.

 

[clinkerbuilt]

I haven't seen anyone post a link to this open-access 2020 study of rider weight impact on horses' way of going, so here it is, with sample image and final paragraph. I found it a while back when I was concerned about the effect of my then-weight on rather broadly assigned RS horses.
https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eve.13085

 

[southerncomfort]

You can disagree all you like about the importance of exercise in weightloss but what comes out of research is that it isnt very! I never said it wasn't beneficial either. It is very important for health. Everyone should probably exercise more. It is just not a huge contributer to weight loss. Especially if you end up eating to fuel it, or drinking "sports drinks". For some people it is more effective as they don't get the drive to eat more to compensate for the exercise. But most people will get an increase in appetite. And since half an hour of most types of exercise only burns about 300 calories it is very easy to just eat away the potential weight loss without even noticing. Even if you count calories because those things are pretty darn inaccurate.

The main thing I got out of reading the Tim Spector book is that everyone is different. So maybe you're an exercise responder who doesn't get an over-compensation in appetite for the work done in exercise. But for many people they do get that and exercise has little effect.

I lost about half a stone just from running to start with but then it started to creep back on even as I was increasing the amount I was doing. I didn't shift the other two stone until I seriously tackled my diet. And while I was dieting I stopped running completely and picked it up again once I'd lost the weight... running much faster for the same effort as well. Now I think of it as keeping the weight off in order to run, rather than running to keep the weight off and have managed to curb the over-compensatory eating I was doing. I can do the running I do without any extra food. I'm not relying on carbs for energy in the same way as I was. I'm not getting sugar crashes on long runs or walks. I'd started having to take a cereal bar with me on a six mile walk previously! Such was the rubbishness of my sugar metabolism! Now I can run nine miles without even needing a drink of water. Or eating anything extra before or after.

Fundamental changes. Our whole food environment and knowledge base is so screwy. It is uncomfortable to realise this. I have spent a lot of years banging the calories in vs calories out drum. I've also spent a lot of years getting fatter and fatter no matter how hard I tried... or how much exercise I did.

It's fine to disagree and I understand why. Exercise IS very important and beneficial in lots of ways. It doesn't make sense that it wouldn't help. Of course it helps, surely. Unfortunately that's not what research points to. :-/ I half don't believe it myself to be honest but as a statement it appears to be well supported by the data.

I wanted to come back and defend myself and point to research that proves the link between weight control and exercise, especially as your post felt a bit personal.

But I'm not going to. Life's too short. Have a good day.
I'm out

 

[Birker2020]

I haven't seen anyone post a link to this open-access 2020 study of rider weight impact on horses' way of going, so here it is, with sample image and final paragraph. I found it a while back when I was concerned about the effect of my then-weight on rather broadly assigned RS horses.
https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eve.13085

View attachment 96285
View attachment 96286

My previous horse and this study:

Heavier people should ride a horse of appropriate size. Tick.
Heavier people should ride a horse of appropriate fitness. Tick.
With a saddle fitted for both horse and rider. Tick.

 

[clinkerbuilt]

My previous horse and this study:

Heavier people should ride a horse of appropriate size. Tick.
Heavier people should ride a horse of appropriate fitness. Tick.
With a saddle fitted for both horse and rider. Tick.

It's definitely worth reading as much of the whole thing as possible to understand the limits of what they believe they can conclude based on the pilot study.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Linka, that pilot study on rider weight was most interesting. It is a great shame that corners were cut in getting the required approvals for the pilot study, which subsequently led to the striking off the veterinary register of Sue Dyson.

The Very Heavy rider should never have been allowed to sit on horse 2, even for a brief period of walk.

 

[clinkerbuilt]

Linka, that pilot study on rider weight was most interesting. It is a great shame that corners were cut in getting the required approvals for the pilot study, which subsequently led to the striking off the veterinary register of Sue Dyson.

The Very Heavy rider should never have been allowed to sit on horse 2, even for a brief period of walk.

Yes, the Dyson scandal is bizarre.

It's striking that all 7 tests with the VH rider were halted quickly even so.

 

[Dexter]

My previous horse and this study:

Heavier people should ride a horse of appropriate size. Tick.
Heavier people should ride a horse of appropriate fitness. Tick.
With a saddle fitted for both horse and rider. Tick.

But there has to be a cut off point where you dont get on a horse anymore.

I imagine it varies for everyone, but I dont think any horse should be carrying more than 16 stone plus tack, and for that you'd need a proper weight carrier. Sound and fit, wide across the loins, short cannon bones and a short but not too short back. Hard to find that sort of horse, unfortunately. And at that weight even on the best weight carrier I wouldnt want the horse jumping or being ridden for significant periods of time, or working hard towards the upper levels of their capabilities. If there was any sort of soundness medical issue, no matter how minor then that would immediately and significantly reduce the weight limit for that horse for me. The research backs this up.

While the limits are indicated to be around 15%, the bigger the horse the less this is going to apply due to the sheer amount of pressure being placed on the very small surface area of the saddle.

Everyone makes their own decisions, but how can anyone get on a horse knowing their weight is going to cause it at best discomfort, at worst pain? What gives anyone the right to do that to an animal that has no choice in the matter? There is so much cognitive dissonance around what we do to horses in order that we can ride them.

I am growing increasingly worried about how equestrianism is perceived and how long it can continue in its current form.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I wanted to come back and defend myself and point to research that proves the link between weight control and exercise, especially as your post felt a bit personal.

But I'm not going to. Life's too short. Have a good day.
I'm out

Personal? As in nasty personal? How? It was aimed at you as a response to your post so it was personal in that way, as your post was aimed a mine originally! But I had no intention of being nasty. I said I understood why and said I empathised with not believing it. I'm sure there is research that proves a link...useful for the food industry to have research to take the spotlight off them, their horrendous foods and their exploitative marketing and make people who struggle to lose weight take all the blame onto their own shoulders, while drinking their sports drinks and eating their ultra-processed nutrient bars...

I love exercising. I believe it is very good for us. I also think the myth that it is really important in weight control is more likely to make people give up in despair, both exercise and trying to lose weight, then to get people active and healthy.

I never said that exercise wasn't good and cannot begin to see how you've taken my post personally, in the nasty sense. I didn't say anything desparaging about you, I completely empathised with your position having believed it myself until very recently.

I had no intention of causing any offence. I'm simply relaying interesting information that until recently I had no idea about myself. I fail, utterly, to see where I have been unreasonable or rude or nasty in any way. I'm sorry you feel got at, it was not my intention. I just want to talk about what might be true and what we might think we know that is actually false.

I think it is important because battling away under food industry created myths is making so many peoples lives miserable and putting huge strains on our health systems. Having said that it isn't my job to convince anyone of anything. ?‍ but if anyone is reading this thread and is interested then we've had several suggestions of good books that explore these issues in more detail.

You have a grand day too. Just because I disagree with your opinion or your understanding if the facts does not mean I am attacking you. You disagree with me and actually did so first, my post was in response to defend my position. As is normal in a discussion. I appreciate your perspective and wholeheartedly agree that exercise is good and important and that many people would benefit from doing more. All of which I said in my original response to you but wasn't clear in my first post as I was talking completely in the context of weightloss there. Where exercise, it turns out, matters a lot less than people imagine.

 

[AntiPuck]

Yes, the Dyson scandal is bizarre.

It's striking that all 7 tests with the VH rider were halted quickly even so.

It reads as though they halted the majority of tests for the H (14 stone) rider as well, unless I'm misreading. That's very interesting given this rider's % of horse body weight was between 17-20% dependent on the horse, with lots of people treating 20% as an unproblematic rider weight. It seems like, as others have said up thread, 15% is a much more reasonable limit from the horse's perspective.

ETA, quote from study;
"We have documented a substantial temporary adverse effect of rider on gait and behaviour, with no test being completed by the H or VH riders"

 

[clinkerbuilt]

It reads as though they halted the majority of tests for the H (14 stone) rider as well, unless I'm misreading.

Yes.

 

[teapot]

I haven't seen anyone post a link to this open-access 2020 study of rider weight impact on horses' way of going, so here it is, with sample image and final paragraph. I found it a while back when I was concerned about the effect of my then-weight on rather broadly assigned RS horses.
https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eve.13085

View attachment 96285
View attachment 96286

Is that the study Dyson got done for or another one?

 

[Tiddlypom]

It's the Dyson study.

IIRC it has been postulated that had she obtained the correct approvals that a % weight limit would likely have been imposed for each rider/horse combo, which would have ruled the VH rider out altogether (23.6–27.5%). The H rider was 15.3–17.9%.

 

[maisie06]

What actions do you take if your horse is overweight? Try the same for yourself if you are overweight .

Believe me I have tried evry diet going - I have starved myself, tried protien only cutting out carbs, NOTHING works I am still piling on weight, My mother and grandmotherhad weight issues as well so i'm feck£d.....