Showing - is it who you know or what you know?

[santas_spotty_pony]

Discuss - as title.

Been a bit of an eye opener for me - when competing in a LlHS qualifier but have been told it is similar in HOYS qualifiers too.

Never had any issues at local unaffiliated level but affiliated showing seems to be a completely different ball game has anybody else experienced similar?

 

[I'm Dun]

Yes. I did a year on a top class showing yard. They knew who would win before they even left the yard.

 

[dottylottie]

yup, absolutely who you know. i’ve been at a county show before where i’ve heard the judge give the same excuse to each person about why they were placed lower down, then go and have a good catch up with the winner!

 

[santas_spotty_pony]

Reassuring to hear. My boy (aged 24) is my pride and judge and IMO in fantastic condition yet I’ve seen the mark sheets since being placed and I was marked about 1/2 lower than everyone else - even somebody with a horse wit it’s ribs showing did load better than me! I don’t like to come across as a sore loser but it is quite insulting as I put everything into my horse and a lot of effort and money went into getting to the show which was very badly organised. It’s such a shame!

 

[dottylottie]

Reassuring to hear. My boy (aged 24) is my pride and judge and IMO in fantastic condition yet I’ve seen the mark sheets since being placed and I was marked about 1/2 lower than everyone else - even somebody with a horse wit it’s ribs showing did load better than me! I don’t like to come across as a sore loser but it is quite insulting as I put everything into my horse and a lot of effort and money went into getting to the show which was very badly organised. It’s such a shame!

this is why showing can be so disheartening, but honestly it’s what i like about showing - if we’re just not the judges cup of tea that’s fine by me, if we demolish all the show jumps there’s only myself to be cross with

i do think best conditioned classes can vary so wildly too, i’ve got a show this weekend and to me my pony is still a bit tubby, but to a (welsh) judge she probably needs more “condition”

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Showing isn't as face judgey as you think. Yes it does go on but I would say 95% of the time you are judged fairly. So many people see their horses through Rose tinted specs. Does your horse have good conformation? Do they have any lumps, bumps or scars? Do they perform well? And that goes for inhand as well as ridden. There's nothing worse than seeing an uninterested horse being dragged about. We're you turned out properly and well?

The pros do well because they are being paid a fortune to do the best they can. From schooling to turnout. They are pros because they are damned good at it. A lot of amateurs are very good these days as you need to be as good as the pros to beat them.

Affiliated showing is a WORLD away from little local shows. Don't automatically blame the judges - take a step back and look at yourself and your horse - are you really up to scratch in every way shape and form?

 

[SEL]

I think most judges have preferences and if you're a regular then you know if your horse / pony fits those preferences. I used to help a lady who showed Welshies and she'd generally know if hers were the judges type.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Showing isn't as face judgey as you think. Yes it does go on but I would say 95% of the time you are judged fairly. So many people see their horses through Rose tinted specs. Does your horse have good conformation? Do they have any lumps, bumps or scars? Do they perform well? And that goes for inhand as well as ridden. There's nothing worse than seeing an uninterested horse being dragged about. We're you turned out properly and well?

The pros do well because they are being paid a fortune to do the best they can. From schooling to turnout. They are pros because they are damned good at it. A lot of amateurs are very good these days as you need to be as good as the pros to beat them.

Affiliated showing is a WORLD away from little local shows. Don't automatically blame the judges - take a step back and look at yourself and your horse - are you really up to scratch in every way shape and form?

This with bells on ^

Though I do think showing is entirely bonkers . It’s just the opinion of the judge on the day, but manners, conformation, turn out, blemishes, movement, etc are all so important.

I used to go out (when I showed) for a nice day and a nice picture. I did my best with prep and turn out but it was always just a bonus if I did well or not.

If you love your horse then you’re taking the best one home.

 

[Squeak]

I think there is an element of who you know but as Elf said, the professionals/ top amateurs are often leagues ahead and know exactly what judges are looking for.

With showing I take it with a pinch of salt, it's not my main discipline, I'm a complete amateur at it and it allows me to compete at shows and places I never would otherwise. Sometimes I get places and even wins but I go with the expectation of just enjoying the day out - pretty much the same as HP.

 

[gallopingby]

Showing isn't as face judgey as you think. Yes it does go on but I would say 95% of the time you are judged fairly. So many people see their horses through Rose tinted specs. Does your horse have good conformation? Do they have any lumps, bumps or scars? Do they perform well? And that goes for inhand as well as ridden. There's nothing worse than seeing an uninterested horse being dragged about. We're you turned out properly and well?

The pros do well because they are being paid a fortune to do the best they can. From schooling to turnout. They are pros because they are damned good at it. A lot of amateurs are very good these days as you need to be as good as the pros to beat them.

Affiliated showing is a WORLD away from little local shows. Don't automatically blame the judges - take a step back and look at yourself and your horse - are you really up to scratch in every way shape and form?

Sadly many showing classes have seen fewer entries this year than previously. I don’t think it’s entirely who you know but no doubt there is now more unfairness than previously. Local shows are in a different league to RI / HOYs qualifiers and locally the results can be very unpredictable. Qualifying classes are now dominated by pros who are good at the job they do but not impossible to beat especially if there’s a knowledgeable judge. its disheartening for people wanting to qualify for the likes of HOYs to see that some producers have two or three horses/ponies qualified in the same class and in the M&M section some can have as many as ten with no chance of riding them all in the final. Equally the new showing register qualifier classes for ‘amateurs’ at Stoneleigh seem to have been won by pros.

 

[quizzie]

Showing isn't as face judgey as you think. Yes it does go on but I would say 95% of the time you are judged fairly. So many people see their horses through Rose tinted specs. Does your horse have good conformation? Do they have any lumps, bumps or scars? Do they perform well? And that goes for inhand as well as ridden. There's nothing worse than seeing an uninterested horse being dragged about. We're you turned out properly and well?

The pros do well because they are being paid a fortune to do the best they can. From schooling to turnout. They are pros because they are damned good at it. A lot of amateurs are very good these days as you need to be as good as the pros to beat them.

Affiliated showing is a WORLD away from little local shows. Don't automatically blame the judges - take a step back and look at yourself and your horse - are you really up to scratch in every way shape and form?

…but this was Ssadl veteran showing that the OP experienced , and I can confirm the judging was “interesting “…..

 

[gallopingby]

I think most judges have preferences and if you're a regular then you know if your horse / pony fits those preferences. I used to help a lady who showed Welshies and she'd generally know if hers were the judges type.

Part of the ‘art’ of showing should be matching horses to the breed/type standard for the class they’re entered in. Everyone interprets a standard differently but if you do your home work you should have an idea whether a judge will like the type you have. No point in turning up if you want to win and the judge isn’t keen on the type you have Unless you’re just going for a day out.

 

[whirlwind]

You need a very nice horse/ pony to do well in HOYS qualifiers. I’ve got a lovely fell who would win locally every time out but isn’t good enough to qualify. We go to our county show as she always gives a nice ride and doesn’t blink at all the hustle and I get a lovely picture in the main ring but I know she does well to stand in the top half! She’s quite dinky and looks very small next to the up to height dales and highlands.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

…but this was Ssadl veteran showing that the OP experienced , and I can confirm the judging was “interesting “…..

Showing is still showing. You still need a quality animal, true to type that is turned out well and performs well. Everyone has their own views on how judges should judge but unless you are the one in the middle of that ring assessing everyone no one else's opinion matters on that day. Some people prefer a certain way of going - some like the collected, on the spot, not going forward types, some like the fluid types, some would rather the horse went a bit above the vertical but went forwards. Same for type - not everyone likes the same thing. If they did life would be incredibly boring.

Have you ever judged a showing class? Trust me you see way, way, way more from in the middle of the ring than from the outside. Ssadl have a marking system don't they? It's not a section I have ever shown in as I am exempt due to my job.

 

[quizzie]

Showing is still showing. You still need a quality animal, true to type that is turned out well and performs well. Everyone has their own views on how judges should judge but unless you are the one in the middle of that ring assessing everyone no one else's opinion matters on that day. Some people prefer a certain way of going - some like the collected, on the spot, not going forward types, some like the fluid types, some would rather the horse went a bit above the vertical but went forwards. Same for type - not everyone likes the same thing. If they did life would be incredibly boring.

Have you ever judged a showing class? Trust me you see way, way, way more from in the middle of the ring than from the outside. Ssadl have a marking system don't they? It's not a section I have ever shown in as I am exempt due to my job.

I agree….but soundness should be paramount, especially in veteran classes!…..and a broader mind when entries in a class can range from 11 hh to 18hh

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Going back 30 yrs I used to do a lot of appaloosa showing. One year at Leicester County show I had a really lovely filly who did well in most company. At this show due to where it was quite a few of the horses were bred in the area and the owner of the stallions they would have been by was also competing with more than one. The judge was someone who knew him well. My filly was placed about halfway down the line. When the judge came down the line looking at the horses he stopped to talk to his friend, the stallion owner, making it quite obvious they were friends. Anyway after this, a horse was brought late to the ring. It was a black leopard, looked as though it had just been dragged out of the field, the white was distinctly grubby, not plaited and it had no idea how to trot in hand. The judge had to get behind it and chase it to get it out of a walk. It was by one of the stallion owner's stallions. Potentially it was a nice animal but in the condition it was in it had no place in any showing class let alone at a County show. It was placed well up the line. That is the sort of bias I really hate, thankfully that was the worst I ever saw.
I can remember competing in a class judged by a friend of mine. She was a true professional, never gave any indication that she knew me and I appreciated that.
I have been lucky to come under some superb judges and to steward for a couple, it isn't an easy job and I wouldn't want to do it myself.

 

[humblepie]

OP - look at the Veteran Horse Society instead.

 

[Cortez]

I used to judge quite a bit, as someone said up thread things look a lot different from the middle of the ring. I always judge the horse in front of me, not the rider, and not the reputation of either the horse (“oh, he’s won everything around here”) or the producer, but showing is a subjective discipline and personal preferences and prejudices do come into play. Professionals win a lot, because they are professionals and are paid to be good at what they do, they are supposed to be better at it than Joe Bloggs after all.

 

[santas_spotty_pony]

Showing isn't as face judgey as you think. Yes it does go on but I would say 95% of the time you are judged fairly. So many people see their horses through Rose tinted specs. Does your horse have good conformation? Do they have any lumps, bumps or scars? Do they perform well? And that goes for inhand as well as ridden. There's nothing worse than seeing an uninterested horse being dragged about. We're you turned out properly and well?

The pros do well because they are being paid a fortune to do the best they can. From schooling to turnout. They are pros because they are damned good at it. A lot of amateurs are very good these days as you need to be as good as the pros to beat them.

Affiliated showing is a WORLD away from little local shows. Don't automatically blame the judges - take a step back and look at yourself and your horse - are you really up to scratch in every way shape and form?

We were doing veteran SSADL classes and the rules say that lumps and bumps are overlooked. If this was any other affiliated showing I realise this would be taken into account. It was a restricted class too for amateurs only never to have been placed 1st and 2nd on the horse in showing. He did a great show, and trotted up in hand really well. I think scoring him 5 out of 50 for condition is a bit unfair if I’m honest. Of course he is my world and I am going to be biased but I can’t quite make sense of the scoring system. When you have a horse with its ribs showing and looking poor coming 3rd I can’t quite fathom it out.

 

[santas_spotty_pony]

OP - look at the Veteran Horse Society instead.

Yes I’m planning to, they are actually closer to me too and the championship is at Arena UK in a couple of weeks so I may pop down and watch for a bit.

 

[santas_spotty_pony]

This is us at the championships last week.

 

[LEC]

Having watched a bit of county over the years - I am most interested in riding horses and hunters - there is a big gap in quality. One or two will be very high quality and the rest make up numbers. They might pull up if they do a nice ride but usually the top quality have to make serious mistakes to get knocked down.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Wouldn’t waste my money on it anymore.

Enjoyed it for years then boom people being ridiculously arsey and calling me too fat to show my horse inhand. And yes this was local shows but county level judges and other professional show people.

Decided that I’d rather spend my money on things that don’t involve me being ripped to shreds when it’s the horse they should be judging. Apparently If your not a size ten then the picture isn’t nice

 

[Cortez]

A quality horse that's fit and shows a rib (hallelujah!) and moves well, SHOULD place higher than horses that are more covered, lower quality and/or poorer conformation/movement/way of going. Obviously we weren't there, but there is usually more going on than just favouritism.

 

[twiggy2]

I haven't shown horses for many years and used to show for other people, often just to get youngsters out to see the world.
I never expected to win of be placed in the top 6 but did qualify for various things, one 2yr old was immature compared to the others but to have 3 lame horses placed above you in a county level class of just over 20 others is very dissapointing.

 

[Parrotperson]

not exactly the same but I used to judge dressage a fair bit. One day I had a 13.2 welsh as my winner. Had a lot of people up in arms about it but as I explained he went beautifully was ridden accurately and sensitively and was a joy to watch. You judge what's in front of you. Or at least I do.

 

[santas_spotty_pony]

not exactly the same but I used to judge dressage a fair bit. One day I had a 13.2 welsh as my winner. Had a lot of people up in arms about it but as I explained he went beautifully was ridden accurately and sensitively and was a joy to watch. You judge what's in front of you. Or at least I do.

That’s understandable and sounds like th pony deserved to win. I think the w I have is when you have people on restricted classes that clearly aren’t new to the sport and their horses have been showing their whole lives. This is not what the rules were for this class.

 

[santas_spotty_pony]

A quality horse that's fit and shows a rib (hallelujah!) and moves well, SHOULD place higher than horses that are more covered, lower quality and/or poorer conformation/movement/way of going. Obviously we weren't there, but there is usually more going on than just favouritism.

I’m sure there is - it was more than just a rib. I could count them.

 

[santas_spotty_pony]

Wouldn’t waste my money on it anymore.

Enjoyed it for years then boom people being ridiculously arsey and calling me too fat to show my horse inhand. And yes this was local shows but county level judges and other professional show people.

Decided that I’d rather spend my money on things that don’t involve me being ripped to shreds when it’s the horse they should be judging. Apparently If your not a size ten then the picture isn’t nice

That’s awful!

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Right I have gone and found the SSADL marks sheets. This is the score guide:

Presentation, Manner, Way of Going, Movement - out if 50.

This one means how well your turned out, how mannerly your horse is under saddle, how well schooled they are and how well they move.

Next on the list is - Manners, Condition, Type/Breed, Equine History - out of 30.

Not sure why they have Manners in a 2nd time. Condition - how well your horse looks (this doesn't mean as fat as barrel, it's muscle tone, weight for age etc) Type/Breed - is your animal true to its type? If its a shetland is it a good shetland? If its an Arab is it a good example of an Arab? If not pure bred is it a good example of its type such as Cob, Riding Horse, Hunter etc. Equine History - they love a good sob story and to be honest I don't agree with part of the marks as the background to the horse makes no difference to what they see on the day. But the judges are instructed to mark higher for a good back story.

The 3rd box is for Equine Age and Suppleness of Animal - out of 20. This means how well the horse moves for its age. A 30yo is less likely to move as well as 16yo so this is taken into consideration.

The picture of the animal above - it is of no particular type. Its not heavy enough to be a Cob but it is too course to be a Hack, Riding Horse or Hunter. So you will have scored very very lovely in this section for that reason.

You tack is wrong. Your numnah too big for the saddle and the bridle doesn't do the horses head justice at all, its too dainty, it needs to be heavier. Note nets shouldn't be used either but I am guessing SSADL allow them. Plaited tails are also a no no in showing.