So National Trust have voted to ban trail hunting because …

[paddy555]

looked up the collection of fox wee, Certainly doesn't sound to be a very nice way of living for the foxes who appear to live in a wire pen actually on wire to allow the urine to drip through to a metal tray.

I have never bought fox urine and I am not sure I would want to if the animal has to live in this way.



Live Collecting
Step 1
Keep the domestic coyote or fox in a wire pen with access to food and water.
Step 2
Place a metal tray under the pen for the collection of urine. Maintain a clean tray to ensure the purest possible quality of urine.
Step 3
Drain the urine into a clean container for use or sale.

 

[palo1]

of course we could just have stopped hunting foxes and found something else to use as trail scent.

Indeed but drag hunting and bloodhounding were already long in place before the hunting act , leaving fox hunting no place to go and that piece of legislation was so dire that we are where we are now My view was that when fox hunting couldn't be banned on a real parliamentary consensus that should have meant it continued until there was a consensus either way. Antis would have stepped up their campaign and perhaps other forces would have come to bear in other ways too but as a political move Blair was determined to pursue hunting there and then. Utter, appalling disaster in many people's (including my) view.

I don't enjoy being cast as deluded, bloodthirsty, law breaking, ignorant, cruel, arrogant etc etc but I don't think any part of the Hunting Act was fair, democratic or remotely aimed at animal welfare either. I feel lucky with how things worked out for me in relation to hunting; I can hunt under the law and I am interested in all aspects of that but it has clearly resulted in some awful impacts on what was, in fact, reasonably respectable and reasonably well managed as well as being part of a much larger social/cultural unit, unless of course you were an anti in which case any form of hunting is not acceptable and there is no place for it.

What a mess eh?

 

[palo1]

looked up the collection of fox wee, Certainly doesn't sound to be a very nice way of living for the foxes who appear to live in a wire pen actually on wire to allow the urine to drip through to a metal tray.

I have never bought fox urine and I am not sure I would want to if the animal has to live in this way.



Live Collecting
Step 1
Keep the domestic coyote or fox in a wire pen with access to food and water.
Step 2
Place a metal tray under the pen for the collection of urine. Maintain a clean tray to ensure the purest possible quality of urine.
Step 3
Drain the urine into a clean container for use or sale.

And that is a whole other issue If you want to see legal trail hunting that is the cost of it. But there are a huge, horrible range of things that have similar costs which people on the whole are quite happy to accept; pig gassing, the keeping of small animals in petshops, keeping of reptiles in wholly unsuitable conditions, the trade in dead/frozen rodents for pets etc.

I don't want to bring whataboutery into this post though but the ways in which things have unintended consequences is indeed quite grim.

 

[palo1]

I think it’s imported from America, and the production, I imagine, is disgusting. It was BITD anyway, but it may have improved. I think the people I used to hunt with used some decomposition process rather than urine. I don’t actually know.

I would far rather think that the natural trail scent was decomposed fox rather than farmed fox urine. As the entire subject is very contentious it would be difficult to broach that in our hunt without me feeling like I was interfering (and our hunt are doing their best as it is) but then there would undoubtedly be questions about where people were getting their decomposing foxes from. I do think that shot foxes could provide enough decomposed material to provide the scent but that is really a side issue.

The vast majority of antis want trail hunts to clearly lay trails using the legal scent which they sometimes demand to see evidence of (ie bottles) so they are aware of this.

Hunts that produce their own 'scent' (possibly decomposed fox from??? or huntsman's pee a la drag hunting) are accused of lying by antis so it is very difficult.

The issue of riot is not cured in any case whatever scent is used as I have witnessed drag hounds rioting (instant bollocking for hounds obviously). Riot is very little, if anything to do with scent and all to do with discipline, training and respect so the scent issue is only one part of it for me.

 

[paddy555]

If you want to see legal trail hunting that is the cost of it. .

I don't.

 

[palo1]

I don't.

You don't want to see legal trail hunting? As in you don't want any kind of trail hunting I guess. Well that is your prerogative, you are not alone.

 

[ycbm]

Indeed but drag hunting and bloodhounding were already long in place before the hunting act , leaving fox hunting no place to go

I don't understand what you mean by this. Why did the presence of drag hunting and blood hounding prevent trail hunting from setting trails with a non-fox scent?
.

 

[paddy555]

You don't want to see legal trail hunting? As in you don't want any kind of trail hunting I guess. Well that is your prerogative, you are not alone.

I am sick to the back teeth of the disruption hunting has caused over the years, both before and after the ban. Pissed off with the arrogance of them, very pissed off after they so very nearly caused an accident with my dog which could have resulted in him being shot, pissed off they didn't even know which was my land nor who else's land they were on without permission and hadn't even bothered to find out. That was the final straw for me. It was difficult to see which bit of keep your hounds off my land was unclear.

I could write another half page on it but won't bore you. Your quotes are all about whether there are welfare issues for foxes, terrier men, what is allowed and not allowed. They don't take into account the effect the hunt has on people living in the areas they frequent.

I am far from alone.

 

[palo1]

I don't understand what you mean by this. Why did the presence of drag hunting and blood hounding prevent trail hunting from setting trails with a non-fox scent?
.

Drag hound packs already had a modus operandi which was historically and culturally very different to fox hound packs. Fox hound packs wanted to maintain their separate identity, traditions, culture, way of hunting (which is different to drag hunting), country and supporters. Very very few people who fox hunted bought into the Hunting Act (obviously) and were led to believe that it would be repealed so there was very little incentive to reinvent themselves as drag hunt packs but somehow 'different' to existing drag hunts. The Hunting Act had to accept a whole host of compromises - scent being one of them, if it was to get itself through the Commons. It would never have got through the House of Lords which is why the Parliament act was invoked. I think everyone knew it was a disaster but because of the lack of consensus or sense and the mindless determination to pursue that course anyway, it was stitched together really, really badly.

 

[Miss_Millie]

looked up the collection of fox wee, Certainly doesn't sound to be a very nice way of living for the foxes who appear to live in a wire pen actually on wire to allow the urine to drip through to a metal tray.

I have never bought fox urine and I am not sure I would want to if the animal has to live in this way.

Live Collecting
Step 1
Keep the domestic coyote or fox in a wire pen with access to food and water.
Step 2
Place a metal tray under the pen for the collection of urine. Maintain a clean tray to ensure the purest possible quality of urine.
Step 3
Drain the urine into a clean container for use or sale.

Urgh, this is beyond grim. Although I doubt people who hunt (at least those who hunted pre-ban) would care, I doubt the welfare of 'vermin' matters to them.

And whataboutery about how people feel with regards to meat farming is pointless imo - I've been vegetarian for most of my life but I get that some people genuinely become very unwell on a meat free diet, it doesn't work for everyone. I would be happy if the animal ag industry shrank massively so that factory farms no longer existed and people only ate meat a couple of times a week, and that seems plausible in the future because there is a lot more awareness around how bad mass animal agriculture is for the environment.

With regards to farming foxes for their wee, what a miserable existence for those poor animals, for a 'product' which is not a necessity, unlike food. I am a very keen gardener, I grow a lot of my own food and I've never even heard of this. It is on the same level to me as farming animals for fur - completely outdated, backwards and unnecessary. I find it heartbreaking tbh.

 

[Sandstone1]

I am sick to the back teeth of the disruption hunting has caused over the years, both before and after the ban. Pissed off with the arrogance of them, very pissed off after they so very nearly caused an accident with my dog which could have resulted in him being shot, pissed off they didn't even know which was my land nor who else's land they were on without permission and hadn't even bothered to find out. That was the final straw for me. It was difficult to see which bit of keep your hounds off my land was unclear.

I could write another half page on it but won't bore you. Your quotes are all about whether there are welfare issues for foxes, terrier men, what is allowed and not allowed. They don't take into account the effect the hunt has on people living in the areas they frequent.

I am far from alone.

I completely agree with you. I really wonder what world palo1 lives in. Yes there are lots of other forms of animal abuse out there. We all know that. Thing is we are talking about fox hunting here. That people think they can carry on years after it was banned is one issue. That trail hunting is used to try to fool everyone is another. Pest control? In pre ban days I know hunts used to feed and encourage foxes so they had something to hunt! People used to say it was not the kill they went for but for the ride across country, So why is trail hunting not good enough for them? Clearly its not the ride they want its the fact they kill something.
Why not use a man made sent for trail hunting? Why put foxes through the living hell of being kept for their urine?
If trail hunting had been properly and legally carried out post ban then there wouldnt be a problem would there?
The attitude and arrogance of the hunt says it all. They stop traffic on busy roads-why would you lay a trail near busy roads? They trespass on land that they should not be on- why lay a trail on land that you have no permission to be on? They upset and kill livestock - why lay a trail through livestock? They have hunted on railways- why lay a trail on railways. They have hunted through churchyards, killed pets, killed foxes in front of children. All trail hunting of course. Oh no wait a sec, It must have been the sabs, they must have called the hounds in to all those places........
No doubt Palo1 will have answers to all that but really?
Come on. We all know fox hunting continues much as it did pre ban. People that live near land that the hunt uses will know this. Have no idea what world Palo1 lives in but if people are honest they know this is all true.

 

[palo1]

Urgh, this is beyond grim. Although I doubt people who hunt (at least those who hunted pre-ban) would care, I doubt the welfare of 'vermin' matters to them.

And whataboutery about how people feel with regards to meat farming is pointless imo - I've been vegetarian for most of my life but I get that some people genuinely become very unwell on a meat free diet, it doesn't work for everyone. I would be happy if the animal ag industry shrank massively so that factory farms no longer existed and people only ate meat a couple of times a week, and that seems plausible in the future because there is a lot more awareness around how bad mass animal agriculture is for the environment.

With regards to farming foxes for their wee, what a miserable existence for those poor animals, for a 'product' which is not a necessity, unlike food. I am a very keen gardener, I grow a lot of my own food and I've never even heard of this. It is on the same level to me as farming animals for fur - completely outdated, backwards and unnecessary. I find it heartbreaking tbh.

Well I agree with much of what you say but I DO care about the welfare of 'vermin' - I never use poison on rats or anything else and do our best to scare off the various birds that are a genuine nuisance to our veg and lambs. I do care about foxes too and farm animals. I agree about mass animal agriculture too.

 

[palo1]

Urgh, this is beyond grim. Although I doubt people who hunt (at least those who hunted pre-ban) would care, I doubt the welfare of 'vermin' matters to them.

And whataboutery about how people feel with regards to meat farming is pointless imo - I've been vegetarian for most of my life but I get that some people genuinely become very unwell on a meat free diet, it doesn't work for everyone. I would be happy if the animal ag industry shrank massively so that factory farms no longer existed and people only ate meat a couple of times a week, and that seems plausible in the future because there is a lot more awareness around how bad mass animal agriculture is for the environment.

With regards to farming foxes for their wee, what a miserable existence for those poor animals, for a 'product' which is not a necessity, unlike food. I am a very keen gardener, I grow a lot of my own food and I've never even heard of this. It is on the same level to me as farming animals for fur - completely outdated, backwards and unnecessary. I find it heartbreaking tbh.

Well I agree with much of what you say but I DO care about the welfare of 'vermin' - I never use poison on rats or anything else and do our best to scare off the various birds that are a genuine nuisance to our veg and lambs. I do care about foxes too and farm animals. I agree about mass animal agriculture too.

 

[Clodagh]

Bizarrely and incomprehensibly hunting people care very much about the welfare of foxes. We always used to get a real thrill, any time of year, if seeing a healthy wild fox going about his business.
As long as that business was not in my chicken pens.
Palo don’t quote me on the decomposition thing, it was years ago I last discussed trail laying. Surely the sabs could just have a whiff of whatever bottle is being used to check it is a plausible liquid?
And yes the farming of urine of any sort is gross, why do gardeners use Fox wee?

 

[cauda equina]

To summarise, if i have understood, trail hunting continues to use fox scent so that hounds will keep their skill in be able to follow fox scent as a pack, which is desired because it is a unique ability among domesticated dogs.

I get it.

I'm not sure how it squares with the fact that trails are supposed to be being laid that minimise the risk of hunting fox. And there's a huge conflict between continuing to use fox scent and convincing people, sabs not least, that there is a genuine intention not to hunt fox.

There's no solution to this conundrum is there?
.

Re the skill to follow fox scent - why?
It's an undoubted skill, but one that has no function or purpose now.
The Hunting Act is never going to be repealed; I wonder how much damage the mere suggestion of doing so did to Theresa May

 

[palo1]

Bizarrely and incomprehensibly hunting people care very much about the welfare of foxes. We always used to get a real thrill, any time of year, if seeing a healthy wild fix going about his business.
As long as that business was not in my chicken pens.
Palo don’t quote me on the decomposition thing, it was years ago I last discussed trail laying. Surely the sabs could just have a whiff of whatever bottle is being used to check it is a plausible liquid?
And yes the farming of urine of any sort is gross, why do gardeners use Fox wee?

To keep other pests away I think? On gardening forums it is not uncommon to hear of people wanting all sorts of things like that. Including Lion poo...

 

[palo1]

Bizarrely and incomprehensibly hunting people care very much about the welfare of foxes. We always used to get a real thrill, any time of year, if seeing a healthy wild fix going about his business.
As long as that business was not in my chicken pens.
Palo don’t quote me on the decomposition thing, it was years ago I last discussed trail laying. Surely the sabs could just have a whiff of whatever bottle is being used to check it is a plausible liquid?
And yes the farming of urine of any sort is gross, why do gardeners use Fox wee?

I think if sabs are just given a 'whiff' of 'some smelly old rag' or out of a bottle there are accusations, inevitably that hunters are just 'pretending' or have a convenient stinky bottle. There is no trust at all on either side.

 

[ycbm]

Re the skill to follow fox scent - why?
It's an undoubted skill, but one that has no function or purpose now.
The Hunting Act is never going to be repealed; I wonder how much damage the mere suggestion of doing so did to Theresa May

I understand the desire to preserve a skill that's unique in the domesticated dog world.

But I do wonder whether there is any real downside to losing it. It still exists in the wild, where man borrowed it from to control for his own purposes.

I believe that the primary purpose is to retain the skill not for its own sake but so that fox hunting can either continue or start again immediately the law is repealed.

The first is illegal, the second is beyond credibility 17 years after the ban.

I also think that however small a contribution the practice makes to the commercial farming of fox urine, it's an unjustifiable contribution. It's a vile practice.

And if I put this together with the fact that there really is no way of convincing the public that hunts are not planning to hunt fox if they continue to use fox scent, then I think trail hunting will die.

If so, I don't really think they will have anyone to blame but themselves and can only hope they don't take the drags and the bloodhounds down with them.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I think if sabs are just given a 'whiff' of 'some smelly old rag' or out of a bottle there are accusations, inevitably that hunters are just 'pretending' or have a convenient stinky bottle. There is no trust at all on either side.

Agree, Palo, there is no trust from either side. Sabs wouldn't trust the hunt not to switch from a non animal scent proffered to them to assess back to fox scent. It would be an easy sleight of hand to switch smelly rags.

But if trail hunts don't voluntarily declare that they will switch to hunting a non animal scent, and do it very soon, they are all doomed. Switching away from fox scent is your only card left.

 

[minesadouble]

With regard to following a scent other than that of fox, I don't know if this would be as straightforward as it sounds given that for centuries hounds have been bred for this purpose. They are, after all called 'fox'hounds for a reason. I will put my head above the parapet and say I would hate to see this happen. All of those generations of selective breeding made pointless.

I have a Vizsla and from bringing him home 8 weeks old he would stalk and point, it's instinct and breeding that give them this drive, not training and conditioning.

 

[I'm Dun]

I still dont get why they need to use fox scented anything? I do scent training with my dog. Hes trained to cloves. It wouldnt take much to train him to a different scent. It would stop a whole lot of problems if they used something else surely?

 

[I'm Dun]

With regard to following a scent other than that of fox, I don't know if this would be as straightforward as it sounds given that for centuries hounds have been bred for this purpose. They are, after all called 'fox'hounds for a reason. I will put my head above the parapet and say I would hate to see this happen. All of those generations of selective breeding made pointless.

I have a Vizsla and from bringing him home 8 weeks old he would stalk and point, it's instinct and breeding that give them this drive, not training and conditioning.

Thats a behaviour rather than a response to a specific scent. Hounds can be trained to follow any scent.

 

[ycbm]

I think there is something interesting that goes on on this forum which confused me until I worked it out this morning. Most people who post in favour of fox hunting say they do it because they love to watch the hounds work.

I've known many people who fox hunt in the last 40 years and not one of them has gone out to watch the hounds work. They've all gone out for the ride or the social aspects or both. They wouldn't necessarily admit this in the hearing of the Master.

I've only just cottoned on that the people who go for the ride know they could get a reasonably similar ride and socialisation from drag hunting. They don't post much in support of fox hunting because they realise at heart that after 17 years of ban it's not supportable in a public discussion.

So the people we get contributing are the ones who really fervently believe that it's all about the hounds, the skill, etc when in truth for most hunt followers it's all about the fun.
.

 

[ycbm]

With regard to following a scent other than that of fox, I don't know if this would be as straightforward as it sounds given that for centuries hounds have been bred for this purpose. They are, after all called 'fox'hounds for a reason. I will put my head above the parapet and say I would hate to see this happen. All of those generations of selective breeding made pointless.

I have a Vizsla and from bringing him home 8 weeks old he would stalk and point, it's instinct and breeding that give them this drive, not training and conditioning.

Drag hounds are fox hounds. Same dogs, different scent.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It certainly wouldn't be straightforward to switch away from fox scent, but it's last chance saloon territory now.

ETA The utterly inappropriate reference to 'ethnic cleansing' remains unashamedly up on the pro hunt This is Hunting UK FB page .

Now in full swing, there is a very nasty underhanded form of ethnic cleansing sweeping through the Nation at a more than alarming rate, taking out anybody's opinion who may differ from those who have a model in their mind as to just how they want our Countryside to be.

 

[ester]

It can be both surely? I like watching hounds work and going across the country. I know watching some cambridge drag videos having moved here I was like ermm where are all the hounds ?, I think they only go out with 3 or 4 couple usually and the field is much more separate than my other experiences.

Re. fox urine, it was my assumption that it was an additional product from the many fox fur farms that exist, as they are kept in wire cages.

 

[ycbm]

It can be both surely?

Of course, so the question is whether the mounted field would be there without the riding across country. (If, for example, they were magically teleported from one draw to the next). That would indicate clearly which was more important.

The answer is pretty obvious, I think.



(I take your point on the fox urine, it's good one.)

 

[ester]

I think some would but probably more wouldn't, we weren't really particularly good at keeping up so we'd get there quicker then.

 

[stangs]

With regard to following a scent other than that of fox, I don't know if this would be as straightforward as it sounds given that for centuries hounds have been bred for this purpose. They are, after all called 'fox'hounds for a reason. I will put my head above the parapet and say I would hate to see this happen. All of those generations of selective breeding made pointless.

I have a Vizsla and from bringing him home 8 weeks old he would stalk and point, it's instinct and breeding that give them this drive, not training and conditioning.

I can see what you're saying, but surely following a different scent wouldn't change much - I can't imagine that they are born with a nose specifically for sniffing foxes. Nor would they be the first breed to lose their original purpose. I doubt anyone still uses bulldogs for bull-baiting, and there have been many breeds bred for dog-fighting (another sport where a fellow animal is at risk of getting severely injured) that no one here would want to continue for the sake of their lineage.

 

[cauda equina]

I think there is something interesting that goes on on this forum which confused me until I worked it out this morning. Most people who post in favour of fox hunting say they do it because they love to watch the hounds work.

I've know many people who fox hunt in the last 40 years and not one of them has gone out to watch the hounds work. They've all gone out for the ride or the social aspects or both. They wouldn't necessarily admit this in the hearing of the Master.

I've only just cottoned on that the people who go for the ride know they could get a reasonably similar ride and socialisation from drag hunting. They don't post much in support of fox hunting because they realise at heart that after 17 years of ban it's not supportable in a public discussion.

So the people we get contributing are the ones who really fervently believe that it's all about the hounds, the skill, etc when in truth for most hunt followers it's all about the fun.
.

Or bloodhounding, which is probably more similar due to the natural scent and slower pace

What do beagle/harrier packs do for scent? I've never seen them mentioned wrt illegal hunting