So what has British Eventing done wrong?

[ycbm]

Christ alive - the existence of 1 solid fence does not evidence decent course building ?

I could find many, many photos of sh1tty course building to evidence that if you want to see some horrors?!

I would not have posted it if the whole course had not been to the same standard. Because that would have been deliberately misleading. Thanks for that accusation.
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[ycbm]

I can certainly recall some pretty rough and ready UA XC courses back in the day, in Cheshire and N.Wales. There used to be just novice classes at 2ft 9ins (83cm) and open classes at 3ft 6ins (106cm).

I retired after getting out of novice with 2 ODE wins, I was never brave enough to jump an open course.

Of course there were, I was only rebutting somebody's assertion that there were no good unaffiliated courses. Because there were.

And it's a long stretch, for me, to believe that no other pressures than BE would have resulted in improved quality of courses over 30 years.
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[Ample Prosecco]

Blimey, AE, and are those concrete slabs with nice sharp edges forming the step ??

Well you would not want to hit your head on them, for sure! It was such a weird course. Some fences were so small they were basically trip hazards. Especially the step up which was a few inches high and more or less hidden in the grass. Then a drop into water. Not one to go back to. Katie did get back on and complete though.

 

[millitiger]

Not sure how helpful this is, however just back from eventing at Great Tew this weekend, where they filled 3 days with entries from 80-100cm.

I dont think BE has run at Great Tew for a number of years so they aren't running over an affiliated course.

We had live scoring through EventingScores, easy to get on my phone in the lorry park.
An amazing cross country course and all ground had been aerovated.
Used their own dressage tests, rather than BE ones.
The day ran incredibly smoothly, there were paramedics, horse ambulance etc. on site if needed.
I was lucky enough to win my section and had great prizes, far better than I have won BE.

Is it simply better marketing by Cotswold Cup, pulling in the entries, or something deeper?
I genuinely don't know!
I'm much more open to doing some BE this year with the change to day tickets but at the moment the unaffiliated are easier/quicker to enter, marginally cheaper and I get to ride at great venues like Great Tew, Gatcombe and Barbury Castle. I much prefer that to visiting ALW 8x a season!

 

[RachelFerd]

Not sure how helpful this is, however just back from eventing at Great Tew this weekend, where they filled 3 days with entries from 80-100cm.

I dont think BE has run at Great Tew for a number of years so they aren't running over an affiliated course.

We had live scoring through EventingScores, easy to get on my phone in the lorry park.
An amazing cross country course and all ground had been aerovated.
Used their own dressage tests, rather than BE ones.
The day ran incredibly smoothly, there were paramedics, horse ambulance etc. on site if needed.
I was lucky enough to win my section and had great prizes, far better than I have won BE.

Is it simply better marketing by Cotswold Cup, pulling in the entries, or something deeper?
I genuinely don't know!
I'm much more open to doing some BE this year with the change to day tickets but at the moment the unaffiliated are easier/quicker to enter, marginally cheaper and I get to ride at great venues like Great Tew, Gatcombe and Barbury Castle. I much prefer that to visiting ALW 8x a season!

The Cotswold Cup events only started because a BE course designer wanted to run events at Oxstalls (I think) but BE, several years ago, would not grant them space in the calendar due to the fixture process being a very closed shop at that point in time.

There's no reason why that entire set of events couldn't be in the BE calendar.
There's no reason why the entire CC series couldn't be part of the BE calendar and continue to also be a specific set of events that runs as a league. I really hope that the new proposals for a much more open fixtures process for grassroots level events fixes this.

There's also no reason why affiliated event rules could change to allow events to run an unaffiliated 70cm alongside an affiliated event (this is commonplace in the US and AUS I think).

I just find the whole thing so bl00dy stupid!

 

[millitiger]

The Cotswold Cup events only started because a BE course designer wanted to run events at Oxstalls (I think) but BE, several years ago, would not grant them space in the calendar due to the fixture process being a very closed shop at that point in time.

There's no reason why that entire set of events couldn't be in the BE calendar.
There's no reason why the entire CC series couldn't be part of the BE calendar and continue to also be a specific set of events that runs as a league. I really hope that the new proposals for a much more open fixtures process for grassroots level events fixes this.

There's also no reason why affiliated event rules could change to allow events to run an unaffiliated 70cm alongside an affiliated event (this is commonplace in the US and AUS I think).

I just find the whole thing so bl00dy stupid!

Agreed, I'm hopeful the new leadership in BE can be a little more open minded and inclusive as many historic decisions seem to have cut their nose off to spite their face!

 

[LEC]

There's also no reason why affiliated event rules could change to allow events to run an unaffiliated 70cm alongside an affiliated event (this is commonplace in the US and AUS I think).

I just find the whole thing so bl00dy stupid!

Just on this actually BD and BS manage to do this pretty regularly with running unaff at the same time.

I think BE has been arrogant for many years about everything and suddenly it has come back to bite them. MPEC which did get an event this year has been trying to get into the calendar for years.

 

[RachelFerd]

Just on this actually BD and BS manage to do this pretty regularly with running unaff at the same time.

I think BE has been arrogant for many years about everything and suddenly it has come back to bite them. MPEC which did get an event this year has been trying to get into the calendar for years.

It must be possible. I mean, lots of big events run arena eventing unaffiliated alongside their proper eventing (Chatsworth, Blenheim, Bramham, Houghton... even Frickley) - so why not extend that out a little bit to a wee 70cm class. If it bulks up the entries to make the day sustainable AND gets people on site and interested in participating in the sport its got to be a really good thing.

I just want a lovely big inclusive and fun sport - where everyone is in the bubble. We're a niche sport. There are only so many horses and riders who will ever participate. Everyone has to work together to make it work. We cannot return to the dark days of having professional/serious elite sport on one side, and scrappy unstructured sport with pockets of random organised leagues for the lower levels. It's regressive, elitist and dumb.

 

[ycbm]

Agreed, I'm hopeful the new leadership in BE can be a little more open minded and inclusive as many historic decisions seem to have cut their nose off to spite their face!

I think BE has been arrogant for many years about everything and suddenly it has come back to bite them. MPEC which did get an event this year has been trying to get into the calendar for years.

I got involved in a thread when BE used to run a forum, years ago now. I tried to suggest that BE was pricing itself out of the reach of ordinary riders and the response on that forum was "go to the AGM and raise it then". When I pointed out that ordinary members had jobs and couldn't just take a midweek day off work, and that the second class return rail fare from Manchester to London at that time was over £200, which could make the difference to lower paid competitors of not being able to event if they went to the AGM, the response was "tough". These were not official responses from BE, but they were, I felt, indicative of the attitude from the top.

Nose to spite face and come back to bite them indeed.
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[McGrools]

[QUOTE="RachelFerd, post: 14920704, member: 40330"

I just want a lovely big inclusive and fun sport - where everyone is in the bubble. We're a niche sport. There are only so many horses and riders who will ever participate. Everyone has to work together to make it work. We cannot return to the dark days of having professional/serious elite sport on one side, and scrappy unstructured sport with pockets of random organised leagues for the lower levels. It's regressive, elitist and dumb.[/QUOTE]


Maybe controversial but I think BE is elitist and secretly wants to remain so. Lets face it, its a rich mans game, it always has been for the privileged few.
I really dont think the senior powers that be want it to be easily accessible to mr and mrs average.
Imo, I think the unaffiliated series upto 100 are the way forward as they are proving so succesful and leave BE to its novice and up competitors.

I have noticed stafford is putting on pony club sections this year and Skipton is hoping too aswell. They realise they need the unaffiliated entrants to make it economically viable.

 

[RachelFerd]

[QUOTE="RachelFerd, post: 14920704, member: 40330"

I just want a lovely big inclusive and fun sport - where everyone is in the bubble. We're a niche sport. There are only so many horses and riders who will ever participate. Everyone has to work together to make it work. We cannot return to the dark days of having professional/serious elite sport on one side, and scrappy unstructured sport with pockets of random organised leagues for the lower levels. It's regressive, elitist and dumb.

Maybe controversial but I think BE is elitist and secretly wants to remain so. Lets face it, its a rich mans game, it always has been for the privileged few.
I really dont think the senior powers that be want it to be easily accessible to mr and mrs average.
Imo, I think the unaffiliated series upto 100 are the way forward as they are proving so succesful and leave BE to its novice and up competitors.

I have noticed stafford is putting on pony club sections this year and Skipton is hoping too aswell. They realise they need the unaffiliated entrants to make it economically viable.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree with you less ???

BE does not want to remain elitist. They are really trying their absolute best to make it attractive for new entrants and grassroots riders. They are trying to shake off the perception of elitism - but, and it's a big but, the sport does still remain expensive to participate in.

People's assumptions about it being elitist are feeding an idea that it's 'not for them' when it's simply not true.

Sigh. I know I'm never going to agree with everyone, but I do find this "us and them" attitude really annoying!

 

[RachelFerd]

So - interesting update from Skipton. They are running new 'GO BE' classes which are essentially unaffiliated classes running alongside the normal BE classes. No recorded results or MERs but rosettes and prizes.

 

[Tiddlypom]

So - interesting update from Skipton. They are running new 'GO BE' classes which are essentially unaffiliated classes running alongside the normal BE classes. No recorded results or MERs but rosettes and prizes.

Running concurrently with the BE event? That's a very interesting development.

 

[ester]

 

[ycbm]

Running concurrently with the BE event? That's a very interesting development.

Hats off to the new management team, I would never have believed they could act as swiftly as they have.
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[lannerch]

It’s not just BE though struggling https://www.bolesworthdressage.com/event-cancellation

 

[ycbm]

Looks like it costs an additional £5.25 to do the entry and an extra £10 on the entry fee? So PAYG lite, then?

I think they might get quite a lot of dealer/pros doing test runs, maybe even under the stable name, to avoid an early poor record as the horse learns.
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[Red-1]

Looks like it costs an additional £5.25 to do the entry and an extra £10 on the entry fee? So PAYG lite, then?

I think they might get quite a lot of dealer/pros doing test runs, maybe even under the stable name, to avoid an early poor record as the horse learns.
.

I think this will be even more popular than the BE classes!

 

[Tiddlypom]

It’s not just BE though struggling https://www.bolesworthdressage.com/event-cancellation

Yes, I posted a thread on that a day or two ago. They've cancelled with a month to go.

I think that Bolesworth had the competitor entries, but not the advance ticket sales or hospitality bookings that they anticipated.

 

[lannerch]

Yes, I posted a thread on that a day or two ago. They've cancelled with a month to go.

I think that Bolesworth had the competitor entries, but not the advance ticket sales or hospitality bookings that they anticipated.

I’ve been told from a reliable source that they didn’t have enough entries , just read your post, so sad a sign of the times unfortunately

 

[ester]

Yes their facebook post suggested they didn't have enough entries either.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

BE does not want to remain elitist. They are really trying their absolute best to make it attractive for new entrants and grassroots riders. They are trying to shake off the perception of elitism - but, and it's a big but, the sport does still remain expensive to participate in.

People's assumptions about it being elitist are feeding an idea that it's 'not for them' when it's simply not true.

Sigh. I know I'm never going to agree with everyone, but I do find this "us and them" attitude really annoying![/QUOTE]

I don’t think BE want to be elitist but some riders do. It’s the same in every sport - runners complaining of marathons having time limits of over 5 hours as ‘that’s not even running’, iron distance triathletes who just want to complete not ‘counting’ as ‘real’ Ironmen/women. I was told that unless I had a realistic chance of sub 12 hours , why was I bothering? And riders who think BE should start at novice as BE should ‘mean something’. It’s an attitude I’ve never understood as I’m totally passionate about inclusivity but it’s an attitude that’s definitely out there.

 

[shortstuff99]

I’ve been told from a reliable source that they didn’t have enough entries , just read your post, so sad a sign of the times unfortunately

I had considered entering but it was extremely expensive! Pretty much same price as a as doing an international 3 day BE! Couldn't justify that for dressage.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I had considered entering but it was extremely expensive! Pretty much same price as a as doing an international 3 day BE! Couldn't justify that for dressage.

As a matter of interest, what level(s) were you thinking of entering at and what were the entry fees?

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

The camping (Without hook up!) was also extremely expensive at Bolesworth, some friends were going to go for the 3 days but the price put them off so decided to just drive down for the one day

 

[TPO]

I don’t think BE want to be elitist but some riders do. It’s the same in every sport - runners complaining of marathons having time limits of over 5 hours as ‘that’s not even running’, iron distance triathletes who just want to complete not ‘counting’ as ‘real’ Ironmen/women. I was told that unless I had a realistic chance of sub 12 hours , why was I bothering? And riders who think BE should start at novice as BE should ‘mean something’. It’s an attitude I’ve never understood as I’m totally passionate about inclusivity but it’s an attitude that’s definitely out there.

To me that reads almost like "you should be at X level to enter". I don't see that as elitist?

I've seen some horrific combinations at BE 80/90 & the odd few at 100. They vary between/are a combination of overweight and/or unfit horse and/or rider, rider can't see or meet a stride/take off point, ineffective/dangerous riding, rider at best a passenger all careering towards fixed fences. I am genuinely surprised that there aren't more deaths at those levels because I have genuinely fears for strangers lives.

I also don't see why people shouldn't be at X level before they are allowed to enter. I appreciate the policing of that is near impossible. I don't see that at elitist.

I'd say elitism if there was a campaign to keep entry costs high to keep the plebs out but BE appear to be actively lowering entrance costs at grassroots levels.

 

[milliepops]

As a matter of interest, what level(s) were you thinking of entering at and what were the entry fees?

think the national classes were between £140 and 170 ish for the 3 days, stabling on top obv. Though I didn't get a lot of change from £1k from an FEI 3DE over a decade ago so i would say even expensive dressage is somewhat more affordable!

 

[Ossy2]

I had considered entering but it was extremely expensive! Pretty much same price as a as doing an international 3 day BE! Couldn't justify that for dressage.

Yes us too but then we priced it for elementary or medium it was looking at over £300 per horse, all the little extra things, like muck removal fee you had to add on was not great reading for the total price at the end. I know it costs a lot to put these on but at over £50 per test in entry fees alone its more than entering regionals/ pet plans ect and as much as it was a great idea and would have been a great experience we just couldn’t justify that when we are aiming for regionals ect as well

 

[Ample Prosecco]

To me that reads almost like "you should be at X level to enter". I don't see that as elitist?

I've seen some horrific combinations at BE 80/90 & the odd few at 100. They vary between/are a combination of overweight and/or unfit horse and/or rider, rider can't see or meet a stride/take off point, ineffective/dangerous riding, rider at best a passenger all careering towards fixed fences. I am genuinely surprised that there aren't more deaths at those levels because I have genuinely fears for strangers lives.

I also don't see why people shouldn't be at X level before they are allowed to enter. I appreciate the policing of that is near impossible. I don't see that at elitist.

I'd say elitism if there was a campaign to keep entry costs high to keep the plebs out but BE appear to be actively lowering entrance costs at grassroots levels.

To me it;s feels nothing about safety or preparation - just a 'you;re not a 'real' eventer below Novice so stay away from 'real' eventing. That is elitism but as a word it means totally different things to different people. And yes there are horses having a go who are under prepared. I really like the MERS system to avoid that.

However the scariest combinations I have seen are PT ponies with ambitious, brave but inexperienced kids who have been bought mega-bucks ponies. The ponies can save them at BE100 but they have so little margin for error higher than that because they are far nearer their limit than a rider on a horse is likley to be.

 

[Velcrobum]

I've seen some horrific combinations at BE 80/90 & the odd few at 100. They vary between/are a combination of overweight and/or unfit horse and/or rider, rider can't see or meet a stride/take off point, ineffective/dangerous riding, rider at best a passenger all careering towards fixed fences. I am genuinely surprised that there aren't more deaths at those levels because I have genuinely fears for strangers lives

I also don't see why people shouldn't be at X level before they are allowed to enter. I appreciate the policing of that is near impossible. I don't see that at elitist.

I'd say elitism if there was a campaign to keep entry costs high to keep the plebs out but BE appear to be actively lowering entrance costs at grassroots levels.

I volunteer at both CC and BE and there is a real concern about the standard of competitors at these levels, the number of "watch this combination" requests coming from the dressage judges is rising. I was at a BE where someone managed to have a rotational horse fall at 80 cms!! There is a huge amount of "all the gear with no idea" to be seen. Just watching some competitors walking courses is frightening as it becomes very obvious they do not understand how to walk "stride distances".