So what has British Eventing done wrong?
- Thread starter Orangehorse
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shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
Would that apply to RC or PC too? They have their own insurance, and H and S and way of doing things but are cheaper than BE.
teapot
Well-Known Member
It probably comes down to what the insurance actually covers. I’d imagine BE’s premium is a LOT larger because of numbers, heights, and increased risk of something going wrong, and what they’re actually covered for. BRC may get away with a lower level of medical cover for example (no idea if they do - just bashing ideas out) so their premium is smaller.
In my last two jobs, there was an extra nought of difference between the two annual insurance premiums for example. One was covered for far more than the other. I could be wrong, but I’d imagine the BE policy will be far more comprehensive than people may realise.
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
Good post from the Speetley organisers. I don't think "people just want an average event" is a fair reflection. Seems most people want "an event that looks and feels like BE over an identical course" without paying for it. Not sustainable and will kill off the sport as we know it if it continues. Which, I hope, it won't with calendar changes coming next year.
Also a kicker for Berriewood and Speetley is that it's Bramham weekend - we've seen bumper post-covid audiences at Badminton and Chatsworth so imagine a lot of people are looking forwards to Bramham too.
Also a kicker for Berriewood and Speetley is that it's Bramham weekend - we've seen bumper post-covid audiences at Badminton and Chatsworth so imagine a lot of people are looking forwards to Bramham too.
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
The thing is that before 80 arrived, SAFE unaffiliated courses at 80+ just didn’t really exist. If you wanted to jump a 90 course without jumping 100, then 45, then a wobbly picnic table as fences 1-3, you had to affiliate.
But now, BE have effectively funded the unaffiliated market by providing the courses for it.
Introducing 80 at affiliated level was a massive shot in the foot.
But now, BE have effectively funded the unaffiliated market by providing the courses for it.
Introducing 80 at affiliated level was a massive shot in the foot.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
The quality of the course matters to me. But before I affiicated there were good courses (eg Smallwood) and awful ones (eg Derby - Broomfield College). Even ignoring the BE courses that run UA aswell.
So you can have good quality unaff events without any BE input. Do sites really need that army of people for every event? What do they all do and do they all add value? Or enough value to justify the cost. Has there been any research into outcomes for horses and riders after falls BE vs unaff? I had a soft fall BE and had to be checked by a doctor. Why? I was totally fine. It felt overkill. On the other hand Izzy fell badly unaff and was on a spinal board and on her way to hospital with great speed and efficiency. (She was fine - it was precautionary as she landed on her head). So I did not experience a lack of care unaff but excessive care BE. Just one family's experience but surely all unaff events have to risk assess and have adequate cover from a medical/veterinary/imsurance POV. Why a whole raft of additional medics, vets and insurance premiums for BE?
I am not being argumentative for the sake of it. I just really don't understand what the added value of all that is. I do understand the value of research, fence design etc. But Speetley named a lot more than that.
So you can have good quality unaff events without any BE input. Do sites really need that army of people for every event? What do they all do and do they all add value? Or enough value to justify the cost. Has there been any research into outcomes for horses and riders after falls BE vs unaff? I had a soft fall BE and had to be checked by a doctor. Why? I was totally fine. It felt overkill. On the other hand Izzy fell badly unaff and was on a spinal board and on her way to hospital with great speed and efficiency. (She was fine - it was precautionary as she landed on her head). So I did not experience a lack of care unaff but excessive care BE. Just one family's experience but surely all unaff events have to risk assess and have adequate cover from a medical/veterinary/imsurance POV. Why a whole raft of additional medics, vets and insurance premiums for BE?
I am not being argumentative for the sake of it. I just really don't understand what the added value of all that is. I do understand the value of research, fence design etc. But Speetley named a lot more than that.
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
Ad
Added value, for me, is a functional structured sport in which progression is possible. Lose that and it's all gone.
Added value, for me, is a functional structured sport in which progression is possible. Lose that and it's all gone.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
This isn't true of Cheshire and this is the third time I've put up this unaffiliated picture from 1993 to prove it.
I think it's also wrong to assume that courses would not have improved over time without BE. I think the biggest driver of course improvement has been an increase in litigiousness and the requirements to get insurance.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
unaff horse trials in this area, at the time i affiliated, was as patterdale described - trappy and inconsistent. The main reason why i wanted to do BE instead! i would imagine there was huge variation across the country.
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
This isn't true of Cheshire and this is the third time I've put up this unaffiliated picture from 1993 to prove it.
I think it's also wrong to assume that courses would not have improved over time without BE. I think the biggest driver of course improvement has been an increase in litigiousness and the requirements to get insurance.
Christ alive - the existence of 1 solid fence does not evidence decent course building ?
I could find many, many photos of sh1tty course building to evidence that if you want to see some horrors?!
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
So, more to follow tonight, but one of my perennial favourites is this one - fence 5 (!!!) in an unaffiliated 90.in Cambridgeshire (Alconbury). What a sure fire way to scare a novice horse going away from home. So much potential to put a foot in a ditch or get tipped up. This was 2012 as well, not the dark ages.
https://www.facebook.com/unaffiliat...a.10150978454239325/10153743391104325/?type=3
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
just had a blast from the past trip round our local (now closed) unaff xc thanks to that site 
the 3'3 course varied between about 2'6 and 3'6. they built lots of funny combinations that had totally random distances (1.5 strides etc). erm... good times i used to FJ a bit there too. i much prefer BE FJ-ing!
the 3'3 course varied between about 2'6 and 3'6. they built lots of funny combinations that had totally random distances (1.5 strides etc). erm... good times
i used to FJ a bit there too. i much prefer BE FJ-ing!
ester
Not slacking multitasking
My experience of unaffiliated pre BE80 was good (though mostly venues also doing BE), the main difference was that once you hit 85/90+ unaffiliated the course got more technical, you would have jumps into water, corners, trickier lines/skinnys etc so in comparison BE80 was straight forward as intended progression. Obviously there were experienced ponies for whom 85/90 was going to be their max so the complexity wasn't a bad thing for them.
I hope that makes sense.
I hope that makes sense.
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
This isn't true of Cheshire and this is the third time I've put up this unaffiliated picture from 1993 to prove it.
I think it's also wrong to assume that courses would not have improved over time without BE. I think the biggest driver of course improvement has been an increase in litigiousness and the requirements to get insurance.
This is ONE fence!
I WAS out eventing at unaffiliated and affiliated level over 15 years ago, and I can tell you now that most unaffiliated courses over 2’6 were pure safety hazards, strided out by cockeyed ducks (if at all) and built from matchsticks and/or concrete troughs.
This is only mild exaggeration!
BE was the only way to go in safety once you got to 90/100. Or, BE courses having an unaffiliated event.
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
Exactly. And pre BE80, this facility did not exist for that height level.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
I can certainly recall some pretty rough and ready UA XC courses back in the day, in Cheshire and N.Wales. There used to be just novice classes at 2ft 9ins (83cm) and open classes at 3ft 6ins (106cm).
I retired after getting out of novice with 2 ODE wins, I was never brave enough to jump an open course.
I retired after getting out of novice with 2 ODE wins, I was never brave enough to jump an open course.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I'm confused because youre previous post suggested your unaffiliated experiences were not good...
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
There’s a difference between actual unaffiliated courses, and an unaffiliated event running over a BE course.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Tiddlypm, I did a novice class in Cheshire sometime around 1997 but for the life of me can't remember where it was. The course started with a hedge. There was a bridge you had to go across in walk or trot. The dressgae test had a release and retake in canter across a diagonal. I'd love to know. It was the only one I ever did until 2018 on Amber.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
AE, I'd have remembered a course with a hedge as the first fence and a bridge, but I haven't ridden at that one. I wonder where it was?
ester
Not slacking multitasking
They weren't over BE courses though, just run at a venue that did. Organisers were PC usually.
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
At isleham the pony club event sent the 100 class into the water over an intermediate drop once - because it measured less than 1m ?
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
So they had two completely separate courses?
An unaffiliated ODE at a BE venue is not the same thing as an unaffiliated course at a pure unaffiliated venue.
Actually forget it, if you don’t/won’t understand thus far what I’ve said then I’m afraid I just don’t have the energy today
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Sorry for being confused about what you were getting at! I know they are not the same which is why I mentioned it in my earlier post. . .
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I mostly remember stockland lovell sending people into the water over the roll tops for the 2'6 class.
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
In fairness, ycbm has posted that picture to illustrate her experience. So it's not just one fence - she's saying that was typical of the unaffiliated events she jumped at. Perhaps accept that your experience may have been different from hers, as I'm assuming you aren't claiming to have jumped at every single unaffiliated ODE in the country?
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Broomfield send the 60cm class down a step into water. With this result!
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
Yes actually, that’s precisely what I’m claiming ?
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
Broomfield send the 60cm class down a step into water. With this result!
??
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Blimey, AE, and are those concrete slabs with nice sharp edges forming the step ??