Social licence questions again.

[stormox]

Everyone has varying degrees of what they think is kind and what isnt. In the equestrian world, the degrees of this seem extreme. I agree, most of the pro's tack looks insane to me. I dont believe we suddenly have much stronger horses (less trainable since they need all this stuff?) these days than the olden days where if you look at photos they had far more basic tack and managed to skip round badminton etc.

The courses have changed. Most of today's horses/riders could 'skip round Badminton' with minimal tack if the course was a straight forward galloping course.
But today's courses have so many skinnies and difficult strides and angles far more precision is needed.

 

[sbloom]

Are you saying Nick Skelton 'mismanaged' his horses? I'd like to see anyone on here ride Big Star round an Olympic course.
He has a fair bit of tack I agree, but would you rather he'd missed out on gold? I bet nearly everyone in UK was cheering him on, not assessing his tack.

It's not just about the tack, is it? It's part of a wider problem, I'd rather no-one British won gold if it meant that all horses started out with freedom, forage and friends, and we went from there with horse-centred breeding, management and training/riding. We have an horrific attrition rate with horses, it wasn't long ago that it was quoted that the average life span of a sport horse in Germany was 7 years. I doubt that's gone up.

See the bigger picture because if we don't, then we're toast sooner or later and we should be. We would all hate for that to happen.

 

[stormox]

It's not just about the tack, is it? It's part of a wider problem, I'd rather no-one British won gold if it meant that all horses started out with freedom, forage and friends, and we went from there with horse-centred breeding, management and training/riding. We have an horrific attrition rate with horses, it wasn't long ago that it was quoted that the average life span of a sport horse in Germany was 7 years. I doubt that's gone up.

See the bigger picture because if we don't, then we're toast sooner or later and we should be. We would all hate for that to happen.

But the OP was about tack. Nick Skelton's tack.
I have seen numpties riding round the villages doing more harm to their horses by sloppy riding on ill- fitting saddles and yanking on a simple snaffle because their reins are in loops than a professional would do with a proper combination of bridle and accessories that suit their particular horse.

 

[sbloom]

But the OP was about tack. Nick Skelton's tack.
I have seen numpties riding round the villages doing more harm to their horses by sloppy riding on ill- fitting saddles and yanking on a simple snaffle because their reins are in loops than a professional would do with a proper combination of bridle and accessories that suit their particular horse.

The post was about social licence, about abuse to horses, using the photograph as a focus, to illustrate the point.

Same old arguments about novice horse owners - who are they copying? What do the public see? What will affect our SLO? Keep your head in the sand if you like, trot out the same old arguments, but there are many of us very experienced horse owners and professionals (saddle fitter of 14 years) that completely disagree that we should accept things just because they win, just because they're at the top and "treat our horses like kings".

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Thats not what the papers say

There is plenty of money around for some people and a huge gap between them and the poorest in society. The rich are getting richer and want to spend their money on 'playthings', which unfortunately is what horses are to them. And if they buy horses for a pro to compete they will most likely accept everything the pro says about welfare.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I'm sorry but on what planet can you justify a pair of draw reins on an already leveraged bit, plus an overtight noseband - and that's ignoring the rest of it.
I don't care who you are or how much experience you have, if you need the ability to apply that must pain/pressure to an animals face to get it to perform, then something has gone wrong somewhere.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Showjumping seems to be like buckaroo sometimes - how much clobber can we put on its head... Yet despite all the kit to steady it, I bet they all wear spurs (I know these aren't just for forward)

The sad thing is, Big Stars kit almost looks "light" compared to some

 

[stormox]

But that's what a pro is? Surely? Someone at the top of their game, has probably done courses, taken lessons, done an apprenticeship and PROVED they know their stuff. And yes, I would listen to a pro.
I would take lessons from a pro rather than someone with no credentials whatsoever.

 

[eahotson]

Oh goodness me.

 

[ycbm]

Nick Skelton and Big Star have won Olympic Gold.
Who are we to criticise?

Donald Trump was the most powerful man in the world. Who are we to criticise?

 

[ycbm]

Thats not what the papers say

It is. The wealthy have never been wealthier. Widely recognised in the press.

 

[Highmileagecob]

A pro is someone who wins big prizes. It doesn't mean they know more than anyone else, it means they have access to good horses and practice more. It is very difficult to challenge things that enable winning. Perhaps it is time for a governing body to produce a minimal list of regulation tack for competition, to put everyone on the same level. And why not allow bitless bridles, or no spurs?

 

[eahotson]

The courses have changed. Most of today's horses/riders could 'skip round Badminton' with minimal tack if the course was a straight forward galloping course.
But today's courses have so many skinnies and difficult strides and angles far more precision is needed.

Precisely so why not have more horse friendly courses.

 

[stormox]

A 'pro' is nothing to do with winning big prizes.
A riding school instructor is a 'pro' as is a breaker, dealer or producer.
A pro is someone who makes a living from horses.

 

[paddy555]

Are you saying Nick Skelton 'mismanaged' his horses? I'd like to see anyone on here ride Big Star round an Olympic course.
He has a fair bit of tack I agree, but would you rather he'd missed out on gold? I bet nearly everyone in UK was cheering him on, not assessing his tack.

that's the point though. Gold and winning is everything. Many horses go round Badminton except those that don't make it, they do the same round Aintree again except those who don't make it.
Can the cost of that GOLD in whatever horse sport be justified. Perhaps the public don't think it can be. As time goes on more may think it can't. Even ATM I struggle to see it can.

The courses have changed. Most of today's horses/riders could 'skip round Badminton' with minimal tack if the course was a straight forward galloping course.
But today's courses have so many skinnies and difficult strides and angles far more precision is needed.

is that good? (for the horse I mean)

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

But that's what a pro is? Surely? Someone at the top of their game, has probably done courses, taken lessons, done an apprenticeship and PROVED they know their stuff. And yes, I would listen to a pro.
I would take lessons from a pro rather than someone with no credentials whatsoever.

They are someone who is potentially in for significant financial gain if they exploit their useful asset (horse) to get as much out of it as possible. They are also so well known that they are persuaded daily that they know everything and can do no wrong, fully in the knowledge that no-one will challenge them, especially if their exploitation is successful.

(No comment specifically on Nick, a generalisation to explain the point).

 

[paddy555]

A 'pro' is nothing to do with winning big prizes.
A riding school instructor is a 'pro' as is a breaker, dealer or producer.
A pro is someone who makes a living from horses.

and there are a lot of bad ones of all of those around

But that's what a pro is? Surely? Someone at the top of their game, has probably done courses, taken lessons, done an apprenticeship and PROVED they know their stuff. And yes, I would listen to a pro.
I would take lessons from a pro rather than someone with no credentials whatsoever.

lessons from a bad pro or from someone with few credentials but ability. The show jumping pro may have had tremendous help with money to buy the best. The one with no credentials and no money may have produced the cheap rubbish horse and really made something of him using their skill. I wonder which one I would be asking for help.

 

[sbloom]

and there are a lot of bad ones of all of those around


lessons from a bad pro or from someone with few credentials but ability. The show jumping pro may have had tremendous help with money to buy the best. The one with no credentials and no money may have produced the cheap rubbish horse and really made something of him using their skill. I wonder which one I would be asking for help.

The professionals I respect the most are mostly poor as church mice, or thereabouts. They put the horse first and can't charge what a big name can but I'd go to them every day of the week.

 

[equinerebel]

But that's what a pro is? Surely? Someone at the top of their game, has probably done courses, taken lessons, done an apprenticeship and PROVED they know their stuff. And yes, I would listen to a pro.
I would take lessons from a pro rather than someone with no credentials whatsoever.

I asked before but I’ll ask again, is rollkur okay to you as long as they win Olympic gold and/or are considered by you to be a pro?

 

[Miss_Millie]

This. Why do some people feel pro riders at the top of their sport can never be questioned? Its a bit like the Oliver Townend thing, some people saying us amateurs have no right to judge as "he knows what hes doing". Crazy! We dont have to ride round Olympic courses to be able to say something doesnt look right or fair. We can all see basic animal welfare, we know horses just as well as professionals do. We have every right to judge and our opinions are valid.

This.

I'd sooner listen to the opinion of a completely non-horsey person than a 'I've had horses for 40+ years and ridden at Grand Prix Level' person when it comes to welfare. Some horse owners are completely brainwashed from a young age to 'show them who's boss' and don't even know the basics when it comes to horse behaviours and what they mean. But so long as they have competed at X Level, they are the oracle and should never be questioned, apparently...

 

[stormox]

I know nothing much about dressage, but I believe rollout has been proven to do horses physical harm.
But I don't think the same can be said for Nick Skelton's tack.

 

[humblepie]

The noseband is high but when watching Big Star jump, he and Nick looked a fab partnership. He’s a big strong horse who I imagine I’d fall off at trot. Presumably the chain is part of a lead rope.

 

[sbloom]

I know nothing much about dressage, but I believe rollout has been proven to do horses physical harm.
But I don't think the same can be said for Nick Skelton's tack.

I think that proof is not only too "narrow" (so often the answer is clearly in front of us, but we narrow it down and down and down in order to find something that is categorically a problem, in fact half the research that's done ignores the holistic knowledge we have), it draws an arbitrary line in the sand which not only is nonsense (down to defining harm I imagine) but is also barely policed. The system so often IS the problem, the FEI are definitely a problem to the industry in terms of SLO.

Look deeper. Horses are often in massively compromised ways of going, and in fact the ones that get to the top are simply able to compensate the most. We have an epidemic of lameness at all levels and much of it is down to the fact that we do not prepare or ride our horses in the best possible way to enable them to carry us well.

I would hazard a bet that the foal that I posted a clip off would bounce most riders off at the trot, that it will be worked LDR and that will jbe justified, it will have regular injections to keep it sound, very limited turnout, and be put into seriously compromising positions on a regular basis. If it doesn't break down before an international career. If you're happy with that status quo then you're part of the problem.

What do you think of Olly Townsend? Where do we draw the line where it becomes unacceptable to compromise a horse, its body and its mind?

 

[marmalade76]

I don't like what I see BUT in defence of show jumping I have to say the following.The BSJA decided to try and make the sport more "horse friendly" and so they lightened the poles and made the cups much shallower.The consequences of all of this, as the tracks became more challenging and the heights of the jumps higher was that a lot more accuracy was needed, hence all the fancy tack around now.
The competition world at the top keeps talking about "pushing the envelope" but what is wrong about watching a simpler show jumping track/dressage test ridden properly and comfortably for the horse.

Surely this would also lead to the not so ethical resorting to wrapping, spikes & substances under boots, electrical devices, etc?

 

[LEC]

I don't like what I see BUT in defence of show jumping I have to say the following.The BSJA decided to try and make the sport more "horse friendly" and so they lightened the poles and made the cups much shallower.The consequences of all of this, as the tracks became more challenging and the heights of the jumps higher was that a lot more accuracy was needed, hence all the fancy tack around now.
The competition world at the top keeps talking about "pushing the envelope" but what is wrong about watching a simpler show jumping track/dressage test ridden properly and comfortably for the horse.

With that argument you might as well run the Olympics at 2’6

 

[eahotson]

Surely this would also lead to the not so ethical resorting to wrapping, spikes & substances under boots, electrical devices, etc?

I agree and I don't like it.I would prefer to see more horse friendly tracks but I am just pointing out why it happened.The original idea was to be kinder to horses but unfortunately it has led in the opposite direction .

 

[eahotson]

I agree and I don't like it.I would prefer to see more horse friendly tracks but I am just pointing out why it happened.The original idea was to be kinder to horses but unfortunately it has led in the opposite direction .

 

[eahotson]

With that argument you might as well run the Olympics at 2’6

Really?

 

[GreyDot]

With that argument you might as well run the Olympics at 2’6

I'll be interested to see what the Olympics are like next year. Last ones had a fair few controversies. The blood all over that grey in the SJ after a double nose bleed did not look good. Not to mention the horrendous modern pentathalon.

 

[stangs]

I don't like what I see BUT in defence of show jumping I have to say the following.The BSJA decided to try and make the sport more "horse friendly" and so they lightened the poles and made the cups much shallower.The consequences of all of this, as the tracks became more challenging and the heights of the jumps higher was that a lot more accuracy was needed, hence all the fancy tack around now.
The competition world at the top keeps talking about "pushing the envelope" but what is wrong about watching a simpler show jumping track/dressage test ridden properly and comfortably for the horse.

I don't think there's anything wrong with making more challenging tracks. That's the nature of sport.

Given how physically sensitive horses are, I just don't think they need this scale of tack to perform accurately and carefully. The issue is that this level of tack allows people to take shortcuts in training accuracy and rideability, and then, if everyone's doing it, you end up with a lot of pressure to do the same, on anyone who wants to be competitive. A 5* horse has the same number of nerves as a bog standard cob. It's not that they can't feel pressure; it's that people train them to push through pressure, and then keep escalating the aversives when the old set becomes too 'weak'.

If only the FEI would apply stricter tack restrictions, we could see who the real horsemen are.