Social licence questions again.

[scats]

Nick Skelton and Big Star have won Olympic Gold.
Who are we to criticise?

No-one is above criticism when it comes to the welfare of animals, absolutely no-one. I couldn’t care less what glittery medal they’ve won.
Even those at the top level who do things more ‘kindly’ are still putting animals in questionable positions that arguably far outweigh what is acceptable to ask of them (and I say this as someone who enjoys top level horse sport). Travelling horses across the world, pushing their body’s to the limit, limited turnout and interaction with others of their species etc, these are all things that, if we boil it right down, pretty much break the 5 freedoms of animal welfare in some way.

It’s one of the reasons that I would never in a million years make it as a successful rider. I’m just not tough enough to ever ask those things of an horse. Even CDJ has horses that break down on the way up, and that’s just dressage, but she just moves onto the next one because she has that option.

As long as we continue to use horses in top level sport, we are, however way you look at it, jeopardising their welfare in some way.

 

[paddy555]

Is that a genuine comment, or tongue in cheek?! Because for me, this is a massive issue. Those of us who don’t compete at the highest level are not allowed to comment, we have no right to ask questions or dare to criticise as we are but lowly amateurs. How dare we expose their world and spoil their fun? We are belittled as ‘infatuated numpties’, ‘leisure riders’, ‘happy hackers’.
So, let me ask this, if my kids were at a school (let’s say, even, a very successful school turning out children to the highest level, with several aiming for Oxbridge) where I thought the teachers (the ‘professionals’ and ‘experts’) were cruelly treating the children, would I not be able to call it out because I am not a qualified professional being paid to look after the children? Would I only be allowed to comment if I were also producing children to the highest level?

to some extent you would be better at calling it out because you would not be part of and therefore considerably influenced by the hot house environment. Looking at and considering everything (rather than one tiny part ie your kids as educational winning machines) you may well see the overall cruelty was not acceptable just for that Oxbridge place.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Out of interest, I looked up photographs of the riders of yesteryear on Google. Harvey Smith, Raimondo D'Inzeo, Pat Smythe, Marion Coakes..... All winning at the top level and working with the horse and tack available at the time. Welfare is paramount. Horses are not machines, and it seems (if this thread is anything to go by) that the horses have no advocate. And if there is a whistleblower brave enough to raise a head above the parapet - who is going to listen?

 

[paddy555]

Out of interest, I looked up photographs of the riders of yesteryear on Google. Harvey Smith, Raimondo D'Inzeo, Pat Smythe, Marion Coakes..... All winning at the top level and working with the horse and tack available at the time. Welfare is paramount. Horses are not machines, and it seems (if this thread is anything to go by) that the horses have no advocate. And if there is a whistleblower brave enough to raise a head above the parapet - who is going to listen?

a very timely comment. Lovely pic just come onto the FB Golden age of show jumping page. Caroline Bradley jumping in a snaffle and running martingale. Horse looked pretty happy but no idea how she coped in that bridle. I suppose possibly she could have had skill.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

As a society we move on with science and knowledge. How many people used to use choke chains on their dogs?? It's much rarer now for people to resort to that as we realise that there are adverse effects and better ways to get the same results. It's down to putting the work in and training. We are always finding ways to do things better as more knowledge becomes available. It's insane (to my mind anyway) that we wouldn't embrace that and make life just so much more pleasant, painless, force less and less stressful for the animals we choose to keep...for whatever purpose we keep them.

 

[Upthecreek]

I think it’s worth remembering that not all riders at the highest levels are great riders. Having a lot of money behind you and having access to talented horses can get you a long way on limited talent.

Most competition horses are bred for ability rather than temperament. They usually spend a lot of time stabled and don’t get turned out with equine company. They are athletes pumped full of feed and supplements to encourage peak performance. They are often produced up the levels quickly without the basic foundations of training being properly established. All of these factors means that they are not always rideable without a ridiculous amount of tack to help with control. Just seems crazy to overload tack on the front end and wear giant spurs

 

[ester]

a very timely comment. Lovely pic just come onto the FB Golden age of show jumping page. Caroline Bradley jumping in a snaffle and running martingale. Horse looked pretty happy but no idea how she coped in that bridle. I suppose possibly she could have had skill.

but there's also plenty of old pics of people jumping with very low drop nosebands and/or very tight running martingales.

 

[criso]

but there's also plenty of old pics of people jumping with very low drop nosebands and/or very tight running martingales.

And also lots of stories about some of the training techniques used by some household names from that era. A couple of the younger instructors in pony club had worked with some show jumpers and not only knew what went on in those yards but others on the circuit.