Social Licence vs Opinion

[sbloom]

https://www.facebook.com/540768522/...WvH3ECZzhHwX94KRGoZDYX7Qtqw181zJ7KHodZ7AFthl/

Very knowledgeable poster. I was reticent to post on here as anyone expressing concern was being dismissed as ignorant. It's those attitudes could get the industry into trouble.

 

[blitznbobs]

Tbh im beginning to think this country has its priorities upside down - i love my animals but if i want an appropriate vet to see my horse i phone them up and they come at worst within a couple of days - if i want a dr to see my disabled child i have to go on a two year waiting list (no there doesnt seem to be a private option either)…. I am a helluva a lot more worried about that than what a couple of numpties think about a horse having to stand in a stable for a day or two.

 

[splashgirl45]

How many people on here have thought they were doing the right thing by following vets instructions and keeping their horses in for a long time to recover from injury. Just because it’s a pro wanting to get horse back competing it’s not different.

when my 24 year old injured her stifle in the field I made the decision not to box rest as I felt it wasn’t fair to her so she was PTS as soon as it could be arranged, this was 3 days later so I’m not a fan of box rest but not everyone feels the same and someone may have opted for the box rest and she MAY have been field sound in a few months , who knows, but it’s peoples choice

 

[ycbm]

https://www.facebook.com/540768522/...WvH3ECZzhHwX94KRGoZDYX7Qtqw181zJ7KHodZ7AFthl/

Very knowledgeable poster. I was reticent to post on here as anyone expressing concern was being dismissed as ignorant. It's those attitudes could get the industry into trouble.

I completely agree with her, I thought it when I first saw the video but I didn't realise he'd been 16 months with no turnout.

I scrolled down the article and found the LC video. I'm glad she's positive there's absolutely nothing wrong with that horse, because from that short clip I couldn't be. I think it's unwise of people running a business to post warts and all on social media, and unreasonable to criticise anyone for believing that horse could be in pain rather than excited about jumping.
.

 

[RachelFerd]

https://www.facebook.com/540768522/...WvH3ECZzhHwX94KRGoZDYX7Qtqw181zJ7KHodZ7AFthl/

Very knowledgeable poster. I was reticent to post on here as anyone expressing concern was being dismissed as ignorant. It's those attitudes could get the industry into trouble.

Yeah I've mulled over box rest issues for a while. I'm also very reticent now to bring a horse back into work from box rest, or attempt lengthy box rests. I think the whole process of trying to bring horses back into work from a lengthy box rest is often completely counter productive. For a while, with begrudging veterinary agreement, I've generally doped a horse up to the eyeballs and turned it away after the minimum length box rest requirement and waited for them to come right that way. I do understand that not every injury works like that, and that high value competition horses are less likely to be treated that way. But I am never attempting to do that box-rest into work process again - I've done it with probably 30 or so racehorses in training, and I don't think it was fair or safe on horses or riders involved. But very hard to argue with vets when they have the training and education and authority to advise us on best practices.

Recent example with my horse is that he had a sequestrum and splint bone fracture. First vet option I was given was for surgery under GA, 1 month box rest and bring back into work from box rest. Instead, I went for 3 weeks of oral antibiotics with continued turnout to see if sequestrum could dissolve itself (it did) and a further 2 months of daily turnout to give bone time to heal, before bringing back into work from normal turnout routine.

 

[sbloom]

This mentions the issues were discussing in the commentary https://fb.watch/hZjemUG3Ne/

 

[Cortez]

Thoroughly agree with the anti box rest sentiment. In the distant past I have had to care for various injured horses on extended box rest (over a year in one case), and I would NEVER put one of my own through it. The longest I would do so/have done so is maybe 4 - 6 weeks, anything longer than that is too unkind to be contemplated. Vets seem to be increasingly enamored of box rest, I miss the old "turn 'em away for a year" way of thinking, and I've seen that work many, many times.

 

[scats]

https://www.facebook.com/540768522/...WvH3ECZzhHwX94KRGoZDYX7Qtqw181zJ7KHodZ7AFthl/

Very knowledgeable poster. I was reticent to post on here as anyone expressing concern was being dismissed as ignorant. It's those attitudes could get the industry into trouble.

Cant seethe link. Can I ask what it was?

 

[NinjaPony]

Interesting context that he was on box test for 16 months. No wonder he was so explosive….

I think in general it would be a good thing if the first reaction to misbehaviour under saddle was ‘let’s try and work out what the cause of this is’ rather than ‘he/she is just trying it on/overexcited/taking the mick.’

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Well I'm having my first opinion/initial assumptions about the L52 video challenged and I think that's a good thing.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I think that it's pretty rubbish that before Christmas my senior surgical consultant older brother had to work for 10 consecutive days inc full days operating plus being on call all night (and often being called out for emergencies) because his department was short staffed.

I can still spare the effort to be concerned about horses in distress or pain being mistaken for naughty or overly jolly horses, though.

 

[Cortez]

I can still spare the effort to be concerned about horses in distress or pain being mistaken for naughty or overly jolly horses, though.

Concerned, yes, me too, but not all horses that are bucking are in pain: horses do indeed also buck and do silly things out of pure joie de vivre, sometimes A LOT.

 

[Rowreach]

I completely agree with her, I thought it when I first saw the video but I didn't realise he'd been 16 months with no turnout.

I scrolled down the article and found the LC video. I'm glad she's positive there's absolutely nothing wrong with that horse, because from that short clip I couldn't be. I think it's unwise of people running a business to post warts and all on social media, and unreasonable to criticise anyone for believing that horse could be in pain rather than excited about jumping.
.

Hind leg action over the fence?

 

[Sossigpoker]

I don't think people are aware of the issues heading our way. The banning of hunting, which gets closer every single day, is just the very tip of the iceberg. There are content happy horses competing and hacking, but there are many with not quite right tack, too heavy a rider, niggling soundness issues. I've seen posts on here from people justifying being 18 stone and still riding, justifying a saddle not being right or a horse being "stiff".

Is that ok? In a lot of cases, I don't think so, and I am pro-riding and moderate in my thoughts. There are lots of people who aren't. We, as in the generic we, need to clean up our act. Make sure that everything we do has horse welfare first, and that we stop justifying doing what we want to do when its not in the best interest of the horse.

Totally agree. But the problem is the culture where one's right to ride seems to trump the horse's right not to be in pain.

My non-horsey partner asked if I'm unlucky as my horses seem to have a lot of problems. I said that horses are not designed to carry humans and all horses have problems, the difference is that I notice them and do something about them. Which costs money. Whilst a lot of owners just say the horse is naughty or stiff or lazy. And the poor horses carry on working when in pain or sick.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

How many people on here have thought they were doing the right thing by following vets instructions and keeping their horses in for a long time to recover from injury. Just because it’s a pro wanting to get horse back competing it’s not different.

when my 24 year old injured her stifle in the field I made the decision not to box rest as I felt it wasn’t fair to her so she was PTS as soon as it could be arranged, this was 3 days later so I’m not a fan of box rest but not everyone feels the same and someone may have opted for the box rest and she MAY have been field sound in a few months , who knows, but it’s peoples choice

The longest we box rested for was 9 months. The reason being the horse was perky and still his cheeky self. At 6 months he was allowed in hand walks.

Would i do this everytime? No, it depends on the horse, the injury and other factors.

Ligament injuries would be prp and boxed for 2 weeks to help ot settle in then lob out for 6 to 8 months and see what happens.

Long term box rest is not fair or in their best interests in my opinion.

 

[LEC]

i think Danny’s letter is tone deaf.
Makes me just roll my eyes. I think there has to be a balance though with not every horse might have an issue.

I hate box rest. Longest I have done is 3 weeks and even then it’s not true box rest as had them in small pens etc

 

[splashgirl45]

The longest we box rested for was 9 months. The reason being the horse was perky and still his cheeky self. At 6 months he was allowed in hand walks.

Would i do this everytime? No, it depends on the horse, the injury and other factors.

i agree, I decided by thinking about being age 24 with an arthritic knee which was being managed by plenty of turnout on flat non rutted fields, box rest may have mended the stifle but the knee would have seized up and I had to be fair to her, i Had owned her since she was 15 months old so a part of me died as well when I let her go.

 

[ycbm]

Recent example with my horse is that he had a sequestrum and splint bone fracture. First vet option I was given was for surgery under GA, 1 month box rest and bring back into work from box rest. Instead, I went for 3 weeks of oral antibiotics with continued turnout to see if sequestrum could dissolve itself (it did) and a further 2 months of daily turnout to give bone time to heal, before bringing back into work from normal turnout routine.

I have an identical story of a sequestrum, this time dissolving out through a hole in the leg. The vet was gobsmacked when the horse recovered with no surgery and I wonder if they are just not seeing how things left to resolve themselves can work. Back in the mid 1980's I had another, closed skin, sequestrum that an operation was never suggested for and that recovered fine too.
.

 

[ycbm]

Hind leg action over the fence?

Yup, and very stiff looking back (related directly to the hind action) . Those are tiny fences for a horse of his calibre and he's hardly popping them effortlessly with a spring in his step.
.

 

[ycbm]

, I miss the old "turn 'em away for a year" way of thinking, and I've seen that work many, many times.

In the UK you can blame insurance for that, it runs out a year after the problem has been spotted.

That's been a major drawback in horse welfare, imo.
.

 

[Aperchristmas]

While it's clear that London 52 is feeling very exuberant, I found it interesting that the buck nearly always comes in exactly the same place - the stride after landing. I'm not saying he's lame, but that's the kind of thing that I mentally take note of with my own just in case there's another piece of behaviour/symptom that might mean it's something more than just exuberance.

That said, I wouldn't comment that on LC's own social media pages. She's an experienced horsewoman and doesn't need my amateur thoughts. I completely understand how frustrating it must be for professionals to get these kind of comments, but to post online invites comment and at least some people are thinking about welfare I suppose.

 

[ponynutz]

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMFEGN6tF/

Thought this was an interesting video to post on this thread. Not sure how I feel about this one bc I saw no “release” only a very uncomfortable horse.

She posted in the comments that pain is part of the process similar to massaging out a big knot.

I personally don't know what vet she's using but really?

 

[ester]

I think she's come up with a story that fits her narrative from that video.

 

[ponynutz]

I think she's come up with a story that fits her narrative from that video.

Yes, I felt similar

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I think I need some tension relief just from watching that video.

If he is so tense he can't tolerate being touched, surely the next question needs to be why? I don't like how she's making it out to be normal for a horse to behave like this and just needs to keep getting releases (from humans).

Also the 'it's not aggression it's communication' comments. Aggression can be communication can it not? 'I can't get away from you so I am going to get you away from me'/'stop poking me that hurts'

 

[RachelFerd]

In the UK you can blame insurance for that, it runs out a year after the problem has been spotted.

That's been a major drawback in horse welfare, imo.
.

I agree re. the issues with things running for a year.

BUT in defence of insurance - it means that vets have been able to use and test high value treatments that the vast majority of horse owners wouldn't be able to afford otherwise, which has led to having enough clinical evidence to be able to (generally) better advise horse owners on what does/doesn't work.

When I worked for SD, she expressed a view was that the insurance market did far more good for research into poor performance and subtle lameness than the money splashing around in the racing industry did.

 

[MagicMelon]

For all of this talk of 'ignorant keyboard warriors', I actually think that a lot of non-horsey people are more likely to see cruelty and pain for what it is than people who have been brought up with horses and have 'always done it this way'.

I have also observed that novice riders/owners tend to be more open minded and reflective, than some riders who have owned horses for 40+ years and think that they know everything/ that their way is the only way.

Totally agree. What is considered "normal" in the horse world would be shocking to most non-horsey people. Its terrible how much "tradition" and this culture of doing things just because thats how they've always been done or some person at the yard has told someone they should do it a certain way is dreadful. I feel all of us could clean up our ownership of horses in some way. I question myself daily about things that I do and have dropped a lot of things I had always done - for example lungeing with gadgets. Ive stopped it. I lunge them with nothing on, in just a headcollar. Lots of horse people will think its pointless. I prefer it more natural.

 

[GoldenWillow]

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMFEGN6tF/

Thought this was an interesting video to post on this thread. Not sure how I feel about this one bc I saw no “release” only a very uncomfortable horse.

She posted in the comments that pain is part of the process similar to massaging out a big knot.

I personally don't know what vet she's using but really?

Totally agree. What is considered "normal" in the horse world would be shocking to most non-horsey people.

I've just shown the "bodyworker" to my non horsy OH his immediate reaction was that he was shocked and saddened by the horses reactions and her "explanation". I find his take on a lot of horse stuff interesting as it does challenge a lot of why we do things certain ways, for a lot things I can explain but there are certainly times when he has made me think again. He spends most of his time trying to avoid being involved and I'm well used to the glazed over look when I come in a start telling him about the ponies so very much non horsy but it's fascinating on what he picks up on.

 

[ycbm]

I agree re. the issues with things running for a year.

BUT in defence of insurance - it means that vets have been able to use and test high value treatments that the vast majority of horse owners wouldn't be able to afford otherwise, which has led to having enough clinical evidence to be able to (generally) better advise horse owners on what does/doesn't work.

When I worked for SD, she expressed a view was that the insurance market did far more good for research into poor performance and subtle lameness than the money splashing around in the racing industry did.

I agree but it didn't need to be either/or. It needs a longer term for a payout after a problem is first identified. It's counter productive for insurance companies the way it is. It's being driven by accountants who want the books closed off and not by actuaries, who could save a lot of money if they encouraged turning away for many problems.
.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMFEGN6tF/

Thought this was an interesting video to post on this thread. Not sure how I feel about this one bc I saw no “release” only a very uncomfortable horse.

She posted in the comments that pain is part of the process similar to massaging out a big knot.

I personally don't know what vet she's using but really?

That horse is one very unhappy horse and the only reason it's not biting her is because the lead rope clipped to the side of its headcollar isn't letting it!