Social Licence vs Opinion

[ycbm]

being an experienced equine vet I'm sure she'd know if there was a problem with her horses.

I'm not. I've lost count over the years of vets and other very experienced horse people who say a horse just has behavioural problems. Then the owner comes on here saying "what shall I do" and is given advice about physical things that haven't been tested for, and very often a physical problem is found.
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[sbloom]

Choosing what you post doesn't take the problem away unfortunately. This trend of showing the 'good and bad' shows inexperienced riders or new people what owning horses is really like but also makes abuse in an industry well known for it a lot harder to hide.

I'm well aware there's positives and negatives to everything just don't think I've seen anyone mention this (sorry if you have!)

Agreed, but using photos showing the good helps educate the eye away from all the rubbish we see so often, especially is we explain why it's good. People will always hide what they do, from rapping to rollkur, these are only being shown as it's seen as acceptable to laugh off behaviour like this.

 

[Sossigpoker]

I'm not. I've lost count over the years of vets and other very experienced horse people who say a horse just has behavioural problems. Then the owner comes on here saying "what shall I do" and is given advice about physical things that haven't been tested for, and very often a physical problem is found.
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In those cases I'd almost guarantee the poster hasn't even seen the vet or not done anything beyond an initial look. People say those things to be not told that they need some diagnostics so they claim that their vet doesn't think they're necessary.

Yes there are some bad vets out there , I've encountered one that couldn't spot a lame horse if it ran him over ,.but I don't agree that Natalie is one of the bad ones.

 

[sakura]

And being an experienced equine vet I'm sure she'd know if there was a problem with her horses.

Isn't that the point being made here? That being a professional or experienced doesn’t make that person immune to criticism.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Isn't that the point being made here? That being a professional or experienced doesn’t make that person immune to criticism.

I never said she wasn't.

 

[sbloom]

Did anyone see TownyCountryfile tonight?

That horse was making it absolutely clear that it didn't want the sidesaddle put on its back. They panned quickly away and the next shot had a (heavy, badly balanced novice) sat on it.

No wonder she felt hideous, I know nowt about side saddle (one lesson when I was 15) but if someone had helped her to sit more forwards in the saddle she'd have been able to get her right leg in the correct place (leaping head?) and not felt perched and therefore terrified. The poor horse with all her weight that far back. I only saw the bit from when she'd already got on, glad they got her off quickly but the whole thing was set up to fail!

 

[Dexter]

In those cases I'd almost guarantee the poster hasn't even seen the vet or not done anything beyond an initial look. People say those things to be not told that they need some diagnostics so they claim that their vet doesn't think they're necessary.

Yes there are some bad vets out there , I've encountered one that couldn't spot a lame horse if it ran him over ,.but I don't agree that Natalie is one of the bad ones.

And that's part of the problem. Because she's a vet she's seen as above criticism. She must be right and she must know more than the rest of us. Athletic well bred sports horses don't all behave the way hers do. Its not something to be celebrated and it is not personality.

Its interesting that everyone knew who I was talking about from two vague comments.

 

[Widgeon]

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1122162161763029/?s=ifu, yet another one, and specifically saying he doesn't give a stuff about the haters.

Gosh that's a sad video. A fresh horse bucking may be one thing, but no horse "chooses" to walk like that - poor thing. How can he not see that something's wrong? I don't understand. I'd be appalled if my horse came out moving like that.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Is it the vets with the 'Lumps of Luck'?

 

[sbloom]

I have no idea who the vet is (but dying to know!)

 

[Sossigpoker]

And that's part of the problem. Because she's a vet she's seen as above criticism. She must be right and she must know more than the rest of us. Athletic well bred sports horses don't all behave the way hers do. Its not something to be celebrated and it is not personality.

Its interesting that everyone knew who I was talking about from two vague comments.

I don't see it as "she must be right". I see it as she's someone who's very dedicated to her career and the wellbeing of her horses. She's posted loads about cancelling a competition over hard ground, horse not feeling right in warm up , clearly coming across as someone who listens to her horses. And being an experienced equine vet on top , there's a good chance that she knows better than the armchair experts.
There's absolutely a time and place to question and even criticise but I suspect her horses have got far higher welfare standards than the average Facebook critic's, so I wouldn't waste my energy.


By comparison. I'm stabled at a top competition rider's yard and the things I see there aren't always pretty. But I bet most people wouldn't dare to criticise this person. Horses jumped almost daily , everything ridden in draw reins , horses on the walker daily in draw reins. (I'm waiting to leave BTW).

 

[ycbm]

In those cases I'd almost guarantee the poster hasn't even seen the vet or not done anything beyond an initial look. People say those things to be not told that they need some diagnostics so they claim that their vet doesn't think they're necessary.

In most cases I'm thinking of, they list thousands of pounds worth of diagnostics and have maxed out their insurance, so unless they are lying then there are plenty of very experienced people around who write off problems as "behavioural" when the horse has a physical issue. Especially if the owner is inexperienced, weak or a bit dippy.

A very experienced listed judge told me my horse with kissing spines needed a man on him and the horse described as "just being a TB" by an extremely experienced trainer had a neck riddled with arthritis. That horse had also been seen by a very experienced vet who told me to get on with riding him.

Horses are very skilled at hiding problems. It's no shame on anyone that they can't spot the problem but it's time we stopped laughing at behaviour that can't be guaranteed not to be a horse which has reached its tipping point.
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[Sossigpoker]

In most cases I'm thinking of, they list thousands of pounds worth of diagnostics and have maxed out their insurance, so unless they are lying then there are plenty of very experienced people around who write off problems as "behavioural" when the horse has a physical issue. Especially if the owner is inexperienced, weak or a bit dippy.

A very experienced listed judge told me my horse with kissing spines needed a man on him and the horse described as "just being a TB" by an extremely experienced trainer had a neck riddled with arthritis. That horse had also been seen by a very experienced vet who told me to get on with riding him.

Horses are very skilled at hiding problems. It's no shame on anyone that they can't spot the problem but it's time we stopped laughing at behaviour that can't be guaranteed not to be a horse which has reached its tipping point.
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Thankfully I've not used a vet that has dismissed my concerns as behavioural but given that the quality on equine vets seems to vary , this doesn't surprise me.

But then , I don't listen to the opinions of judges or others who are not veterinary professionals. It's my job to advocate for my horse and if there's a problem, I'll go to my highly respected and experienced vets. I took my young horse home early from a RC camp as he was bucking and very unhappy. Typically, people there said I just needed to ride forward.
Well it turned out he had stifle OCD and wobblers and was PTS a few months later
I'm glad I didn't just "ride it forward to get over the naughtiness ".

 

[ycbm]

Thankfully I've not used a vet that has dismissed my concerns as behavioural but given that the quality on equine vets seems to vary , this doesn't surprise me.

But then , I don't listen to the opinions of judges or others who are not veterinary professionals. It's my job to advocate for my horse and if there's a problem, I'll go to my highly respected and experienced vets. I took my young horse home early from a RC camp as he was bucking and very unhappy. Typically, people there said I just needed to ride forward.
Well it turned out he had stifle OCD and wobblers and was PTS a few months later
I'm glad I didn't just "ride it forward to get over the naughtiness ".

It's not about the quality of the vet, it's about how good horses are at hiding things, and about how tricky it can be to find out what might be wrong if there isn't anywhere obvious to start.
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[sbloom]

...and understanding compensatory movement patterns, posture and their relationship to mental and physical well being, and long term lameness. This does seem to be missing in all sorts of places, it's going to take some time for it to be more universal. I see so many examples of horses passed by bodyworkers and vets, either come through my hands and we often then get an unsuccessful saddle fit as you can imagine, that go on to show significant lameness either through getting a new better saddle that helps them move more, or, preferred, through them starting something like BTMM and better revealing what's going on.

More "ignore the haters" from Eventstars in the last 24 hours.

 

[Burnttoast]

Even experienced specialist vets can jump to conclusions. Two horses from the yard I was then on went in close succession to Rossdales for issues under saddle. One particular vet worked up both horses and said to both owners that they just needed to learn to ride. He wasn't wrong about that, but he didn't look beyond it. One horse was basically fine, just a young horse with a novice owner, and has done very well in more experienced, sympathetic hands. But the other was PTS after two more years of trainers calling him rude and lazy and laughing at his attempts to canter. He was eventually worked up properly at ATH and a whole host of issues found. I had shared him and had stopped riding him before his first referral because it was clear to me as an amateur that something was seriously amiss.

 

[Rowreach]

In most cases I'm thinking of, they list thousands of pounds worth of diagnostics and have maxed out their insurance, so unless they are lying then there are plenty of very experienced people around who write off problems as "behavioural" when the horse has a physical issue. Especially if the owner is inexperienced, weak or a bit dippy..

Thankfully I've not used a vet that has dismissed my concerns as behavioural but given that the quality on equine vets seems to vary , this doesn't surprise me.

But then , I don't listen to the opinions of judges or others who are not veterinary professionals. .

I think ycbm may be thinking about some of the examples that are in my mind as well, where posters have had in some cases years' of knowledgeable advice on here from people who actually can spot things and have huge amounts of experience to share, while they listen to vets and max out their insurance and waste a lot of time and money, and arguably cause unnecessary suffering to their horses, because they flatly refuse to listen to non-veterinary advice.

One in particular springs to mind where I and several others were told to shut up and not comment on someone's never-ending posts about their poor horse - and we were told to shut up not just by the OP but by other members as well, because the OP was getting upset. It took two full years for that poor horse to be diagnosed/treated/retired.

 

[JFTDWS]

I do think it's a good thing that people post "negatives" on social media, regardless of social license. It's preferable, in my opinion, than hiding it away and only posting good days.

However, I do think that professional riders have a responsibility to communicate their situations accurately and sensibly and not hide behind "haters gonna hate" as a lazy justification for ignoring their horses' behaviour. I would have far more respect for a rider who can engage with criticism appropriately - acknowledge the idea that their horse might be in pain, but explain why they don't think it's the case, with evidence if appropriate, and the acknowledgement that if the behaviour continues and isn't just a "first jump of the year" blip, it will need investigation.

That would be modelling how amateurs should respond to unwanted behaviour from their own horses. Firstly surviving the behaviour (which the pros are usually good at), secondly stopping to consider why the behaviour has occurred, and thirdly monitoring (or investigating / treating / handling) as time moves forward. That sort of transparent, ego-free, horse-centric problem solving should improve the social license situation rather than harm it.

Some of the posts linked to on this thread are appalling.

 

[sbloom]

I think ycbm may be thinking about some of the examples that are in my mind as well, where posters have had in some cases years' of knowledgeable advice on here from people who actually can spot things and have huge amounts of experience to share, while they listen to vets and max out their insurance and waste a lot of time and money, and arguably cause unnecessary suffering to their horses, because they flatly refuse to listen to non-veterinary advice.

One in particular springs to mind where I and several others were told to shut up and not comment on someone's never-ending posts about their poor horse - and we were told to shut up not just by the OP but by other members as well, because the OP was getting upset. It took two full years for that poor horse to be diagnosed/treated/retired.

Happens all the time when I point out we can't get a stable saddle fit because of the way the horse is moving - "seen by vet/bodyworker and they disagree there are any issues". We need change in the industry, today I'm seriously wondering why on earth I'm a fitter...one of THOSE days.

 

[humblepie]

I really don't get why people post some of the videos etc that they post - who is their target audience/what are they seeking to achieve?

 

[Rowreach]

Happens all the time when I point out we can't get a stable saddle fit because of the way the horse is moving - "seen by vet/bodyworker and they disagree there are any issues". We need change in the industry, today I'm seriously wondering why on earth I'm a fitter...one of THOSE days.

Absolutely, it's one of the main reasons I stopped working with horses and their owners. I'm dipping a toe back in there recently and being very selective as to who I work with.

 

[Cortez]

I really don't get why people post some of the videos etc that they post - who is their target audience/what are they seeking to achieve?

Attention.

 

[sbloom]

Attention.

Yep, and clicks and engagement help them sell horses (in the case of Eventstars).

 

[RachelFerd]

Yep, and clicks and engagement help them sell horses (in the case of Eventstars).

What EventStars content are you referring to? As far as I can see, they're one of very few outfits rehoming ex racehorses that actually ride them nicely and don't try and pass them off to inappropriate homes having not at least road-tested them first...

 

[teapot]

I don't think she's got a nasty streak at all. And being an experienced equine vet I'm sure she'd know if there was a problem with her horses. She's got well bred , athletic horses, some of them young , and guess what ,they do have some personality!

The local reputation suggests otherwise. Very much a love hate type of person.

 

[sbloom]

What EventStars content are you referring to? As far as I can see, they're one of very few outfits rehoming ex racehorses that actually ride them nicely and don't try and pass them off to inappropriate homes having not at least road-tested them first...

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=6015934035157064

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=553630606682625

I hear you, but....the conversation needs to be had. Random possibilities - does your comment mean the bar is too low for ROR (or generally)? Ban racing? Ignore the new pain ethogram? Only apply it to some horses? Continue to be adversarial, dismissive and downright arrogant when challenged?

There are a LOT of conversations being had in private groups, private conversations, between amazing trainers, rehabbers, R+ specialists of course but others too, that we have to do better. Initially perhaps just to do better in our discussions, to be open to other opinions, to learning, but ultimately that unless we dismiss the pain ethogram we surely have to apply it to all?!

 

[RachelFerd]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=6015934035157064

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=553630606682625

I hear you, but....the conversation needs to be had. Random possibilities - does your comment mean the bar is too low for ROR (or generally)? Ban racing? Ignore the new pain ethogram? Only apply it to some horses? Continue to be adversarial, dismissive and downright arrogant when challenged?

There are a LOT of conversations being had in private groups, private conversations, between amazing trainers, rehabbers, R+ specialists of course but others too, that we have to do better. Initially perhaps just to do better in our discussions, to be open to other opinions, to learning, but ultimately that unless we dismiss the pain ethogram we surely have to apply it to all?!

Yeah, I don't like the blanket statement that he's not sore - but I'd also defend that he may well not be sore. They're documenting getting back on a horse who hasn't been ridden in a long time. In this specific case, rehoming ex racehorses, I'd much prefer that the dealing yard was doing this test, and documenting it publicly, so that people aren't fooled into buying something completely inappropriate. And whilst horses that are consistently cold backed are definitely an issue, I can think of quite a lot who are a bit dodgy to get on for the first time in a few weeks/months, but genuinely are absolutely fine in regular work.


Particularly when buying ex racehorses you *know* that you are buying horses that are coming from an environment and regime which is totally sub-par for most horses, so you know you are probably buying something sore and/or a bit negatively impacted by life so far - and that you'll have a role in slowly undoing those knots.

I'd still infinitely prefer EventStars to be assessing horses thoroughly before rehoming, unlike in the UK where a lot of ex racehorses are sold out of the field to people with no knowledge of what they're really like.

 

[Gloi]

I wish these rehab racehorses could all be evaluated for ECVM before being rehomed.

 

[Chianti]

Paul Estermann finally convicted of cruelty to animals (grandprix.info)

Social license?

 

[AWinter]

Yeah, I don't like the blanket statement that he's not sore - but I'd also defend that he may well not be sore. They're documenting getting back on a horse who hasn't been ridden in a long time. In this specific case, rehoming ex racehorses, I'd much prefer that the dealing yard was doing this test, and documenting it publicly, so that people aren't fooled into buying something completely inappropriate. And whilst horses that are consistently cold backed are definitely an issue, I can think of quite a lot who are a bit dodgy to get on for the first time in a few weeks/months, but genuinely are absolutely fine in regular work.


Particularly when buying ex racehorses you *know* that you are buying horses that are coming from an environment and regime which is totally sub-par for most horses, so you know you are probably buying something sore and/or a bit negatively impacted by life so far - and that you'll have a role in slowly undoing those knots.

I'd still infinitely prefer EventStars to be assessing horses thoroughly before rehoming, unlike in the UK where a lot of ex racehorses are sold out of the field to people with no knowledge of what they're really like.

My issue is, whether the horse is sore or not, he is displaying really clear stress behaviours and they’re all stood around laughing and making jokes about it then posting that to their thousands of followers, yet again normalising this sort of behaviour as okay or just a cute, funny little quirk. Stress behaviour is not personality.