Social Licence vs Opinion

[sbloom]

My issue is, whether the horse is sore or not, he is displaying really clear stress behaviours and they’re all stood around laughing and making jokes about it then posting that to their thousands of followers, yet again normalising this sort of behaviour as okay or just a cute, funny little quirk. Stress behaviour is not personality.

This, 100 times this. Sore or stressed? It doesn't matter, to the horse they're pretty much one and the same thing. We need to raise the bar.

 

[ycbm]

This, 100 times this. Sore or stressed? It doesn't matter, to the horse they're pretty much one and the same thing. We need to raise the bar.

Yes yes yes.
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[Dexter]

I'd still infinitely prefer EventStars to be assessing horses thoroughly before rehoming, unlike in the UK where a lot of ex racehorses are sold out of the field to people with no knowledge of what they're really like.

It doesn't matter that there are people doing worse things. What eventstars is doing is not good enough. Thats the second horse they have showing clear signs of distress that they claim is not in pain and is just "naughty" "rude" "feeling well" all while they stand about and laugh like it is funny. They even stated that Lisa preferred them like this rather than lunge or do ground work etc until the horse is settled. Absolute clowns.

 

[Rowreach]

This, 100 times this. Sore or stressed? It doesn't matter, to the horse they're pretty much one and the same thing. We need to raise the bar.

Also, I don't get the excuse that because a horse is OTT they can't be mounted quietly from a block. All the TBs I worked with and owned learned quite fast that they had to stand for me to get on because I have no spring whatsoever.

Practically every young, backed Irish horse I've ever dealt with has had to be taught to stand at the block too, the preference here being to vault on athletically in a way most riders can't.

If I were rehoming racehorses I'd be posting videos of the horse being polite and well behaved, and I wouldn't be videoing for public consumption those parts of the training that did the horse no favours, and that's the sound and pain free ones, let alone the ones that need to be supported, diagnosed, treated.

There's a huge difference between being honest and upfront about a horse's quirks and habits, and trying to normalise poor and pain related behaviour and pass those horses on to homes where both horse and new owner are unlikely to benefit.

 

[sbloom]

Better solutions are generating fewer horses that need good homes, and vetting those homes/training the new owners better.

 

[Widgeon]

Happens all the time when I point out we can't get a stable saddle fit because of the way the horse is moving - "seen by vet/bodyworker and they disagree there are any issues". We need change in the industry, today I'm seriously wondering why on earth I'm a fitter...one of THOSE days.

This is just my own observations, but I think some vets, even good ones, seem less interested than I'd expect in trying to put together all the parts of the jigsaw puzzle. I'm not really sure quite why but I assume because they're very busy. Our farriers, on the other hand, seem much more happy to discuss ideas and think about different solutions to an issue. It's very difficult for a layperson owner to question it when a qualified vet is saying "this is the problem, do this to fix it", particularly if the vets don't seem very interested in discussing the ins and outs of it. Not an excuse but I think sometimes people take their vet's advice as gospel, when in fact the vet doesn't know the horse, or see it every day - so they will never be able to have the same perspective as the horse's owner. It ought to be an ongoing discussion but often isn't.

(This is by no means a dig at my current vet who has always been excellent)

 

[sbloom]

This is just my own observations, but I think some vets, even good ones, seem less interested than I'd expect in trying to put together all the parts of the jigsaw puzzle. I'm not really sure quite why but I assume because they're very busy. Our farriers, on the other hand, seem much more happy to discuss ideas and think about different solutions to an issue. It's very difficult for a layperson owner to question it when a qualified vet is saying "this is the problem, do this to fix it", particularly if the vets don't seem very interested in discussing the ins and outs of it.

(This is by no means a dig at my current vet who has always been excellent)

I think it's the system that is rooted in therapeutics. Plus it's a bit like the NHS not being good at prevention, then we don't call the vet till something's very wrong in the majority of cases so they don't get the chance to develop their knowledge on prevention. But if your tool kit is drugs and injections, in the main, then recommending rehab doesn't fit in easily. Plus they're GPs, it's really hard for them to know everything, but we need them to understand this paradigm, this lens, and to develop referral networks and joint clinics where they have people there who DO do this stuff. Multi factoral stuff.

 

[Widgeon]

we need them to understand this paradigm, this lens, and to develop referral networks and joint clinics where they have people there who DO do this stuff. Multi factoral stuff.

Yes...yes definitely agree that is the answer. Vets aren't omniscient. And the societal expectation (sometimes, anyway) that they should be can't be do anything good for the mental health of vets themselves.

 

[JFTDWS]

Yeah, I don't like the blanket statement that he's not sore - but I'd also defend that he may well not be sore. They're documenting getting back on a horse who hasn't been ridden in a long time. In this specific case, rehoming ex racehorses, I'd much prefer that the dealing yard was doing this test, and documenting it publicly, so that people aren't fooled into buying something completely inappropriate. And whilst horses that are consistently cold backed are definitely an issue, I can think of quite a lot who are a bit dodgy to get on for the first time in a few weeks/months, but genuinely are absolutely fine in regular work.

All of this may well be true - and I'd certainly rather that those doing the re-training were open about issues they have with horses before they find them new homes, so their new owners can be prepared - but taking the "haters" line suggests that they aren't open to considering that the horse could have deeper issues.

For the safety of the people handling and riding the horse, as well as the horse's welfare, they should at least be evaluating the horse's behaviour as it occurs and considering whether or not it could indicate a deeper issue. If they're right and the horse settles down quickly and is re-trained to be a happy working horse, they lose nothing, and if not, they're more likely to act on any issues before anyone gets hurt, or in the horse's case, hurt more. More importantly, their followers, some of whom are likely to be very novice, may think twice about behaviours they're seeing from their own horses and seek appropriate intervention. Laughing it off as normal, without even a caveat that it might not be, is pretty irresponsible.

 

[sbloom]

They have posted a video showing him being ridden and "draped over" supposedly the next day, but again there is NO acknowledgement of the issues, and those issues don't go away overnight, it doesn't prove that it's just a weird horse and not a horse with pain or other stresses.

 

[SEL]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=6015934035157064

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=553630606682625

I hear you, but....the conversation needs to be had. Random possibilities - does your comment mean the bar is too low for ROR (or generally)? Ban racing? Ignore the new pain ethogram? Only apply it to some horses? Continue to be adversarial, dismissive and downright arrogant when challenged?

There are a LOT of conversations being had in private groups, private conversations, between amazing trainers, rehabbers, R+ specialists of course but others too, that we have to do better. Initially perhaps just to do better in our discussions, to be open to other opinions, to learning, but ultimately that unless we dismiss the pain ethogram we surely have to apply it to all?!

My issue is, whether the horse is sore or not, he is displaying really clear stress behaviours and they’re all stood around laughing and making jokes about it then posting that to their thousands of followers, yet again normalising this sort of behaviour as okay or just a cute, funny little quirk. Stress behaviour is not personality.

I find the comments under those videos harder to stomach than the actual videos. We've all been in the position of getting on a horse that isn't happy (& that's more than feeling fresh) but I'd hope most of us these days are educated enough to think 'why?'. Do they not like the mounting process, do they walk out of it, is it just from one side or both, is the rider too heavy, is the saddle uncomfortable, could it be their back.........

 

[maya2008]

Riding schools used to stick kids on the tricky ones as they got better - you learnt then the difference between tense because something hurts, and that feel of bubbling joy that’s going to give you fantastic bucks but is just over excitement. Non-RS kids obviously got that on their second pony!!

 

[ycbm]

Riding schools used to stick kids on the tricky ones as they got better - you learnt then the difference between tense because something hurts, and that feel of bubbling joy that’s going to give you fantastic bucks but is just over excitement. Non-RS kids obviously got that on their second pony!!

I'm sorry, I can't agree with you there. As a teenager, I was someone swapped on hacks and asked to ride the misbehaving pony because I was stickable and I can't say that even now I can definitively tell the difference between a horse which is "just fresh" and one which is trying to tell me things aren't quite right. I've got quite a record, too, in finding out what's wrong with horses other very experienced people say are just excited or naughty.
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[humblepie]

Just watched the Eventstar videos and I am not a professional retrainer but the horse being mounted in the school, I would want to know far more about the background and why that is the approach being taken. In many racing yards you will see the horses being hand walked round tacked up whilst the string forms ready to go out, which gives the horse a leg stretch and the chance to settle into its tack, so I don't think he is a fresh ex racehorse really comes into it even if he is being asked to stand at a mounting block rather than someone hop on whilst moving.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I once viewed a horse that was head tossing like crazy when I sat on her. I told the owner that something was wrong and they insisted she was 'just trying it on'. Did a few laps of the school and she still wasn't right. When I brought her to a halt and looked down, it was plain as day that the bit was too small and pinching the side of her mouth.

I told owner that the bit looked too small and only then did they realise the horse had been tacked up in completely the wrong bridle which belonged to a different horse. Once the bridle was changed, the head tossing stopped. Bear in mind the person owned a yard and had years of experience, but they dismissed the first sign of discomfort as 'naughty'.

Horses do not have a pre-frontal cortex to their brain, which by definition makes it impossible for them to be 'naughty'. They can indeed display unwanted behaviours due to pain, bad management, lack of training etc, but the word 'naughty' is an anthropomorphism which implies intent and malice.

There are so many mistruths bandied around in the horse world, often by people who have years of practical experience but have not made any effort to keep up with modern science, and are so prejudice and set in their beliefs that they think they are above it.

 

[sbloom]

Riding schools used to stick kids on the tricky ones as they got better - you learnt then the difference between tense because something hurts, and that feel of bubbling joy that’s going to give you fantastic bucks but is just over excitement. Non-RS kids obviously got that on their second pony!!

Yeah I wish we'd got that understanding of where pain starts right, I think mostly we're still a way off, and back in the day, we were a hell of a way off in most cases.

I once viewed a horse that was head tossing like crazy when I sat on her. I told the owner that something was wrong and they insisted she was 'just trying it on'. Did a few laps of the school and she still wasn't right. When I brought her to a halt and looked down, it was plain as day that the bit was too small and pinching the side of her mouth.

I told owner that the bit looked too small and only then did they realise the horse had been tacked up in completely the wrong bridle which belonged to a different horse. Once the bridle was changed, the head tossing stopped. Bear in mind the person owned a yard and had years of experience, but they dismissed the first sign of discomfort as 'naughty'.

Horses do not have a pre-frontal cortex to their brain, which by definition makes it impossible for them to be 'naughty'. They can indeed display unwanted behaviours due to pain, bad management, lack of training etc, but the word 'naughty' is an anthropomorphism which implies intent and malice.

There are so many mistruths bandied around in the horse world, often by people who have years of practical experience but have not made any effort to keep up with modern science, and are so prejudice and set in their beliefs that they think they are above it.

Yep.

If anyone wants to start looking into this here are some FB pages/profiles to search out - Celeste Leilani Lazaris, Yasmin Stuart, Tami Elkyam, Milestone Equestrian, Dorothy Heffernan, Amy Skinner Horsemanship, Science of Motion if you can cope with his writing, there are loads more and I've probably missed some key ones who would be mortally offended I've not mentioned them...these people looking at the horse afresh are growing as a voice and in numbers. The old way of doing things is gradually being questioned, a new bar set, we can look at bodies and movement patterns, know better and do better.

I am great on the theory but still leaning learning learning on that but especially on the practice, the eye on a moving horse, on those subtle cues that the horse isn't quite comfortable. I do feel guilt over how I managed my own horses in the past but we can't change what we've done. We can accept it for what it was, be open to learning, and strive to do better.

 

[Cortez]

Yeah I wish we'd got that understanding of where pain starts right, I think mostly we're still a way off, and back in the day, we were a hell of a way off in most cases.



Yep.

If anyone wants to start looking into this here are some FB pages/profiles to search out - Celeste Leilani Lazaris, Yasmin Stuart, Tami Elkyam, Milestone Equestrian, Dorothy Heffernan, Amy Skinner Horsemanship, Science of Motion if you can cope with his writing, there are loads more and I've probably missed some key ones who would be mortally offended I've not mentioned them...these people looking at the horse afresh are growing as a voice and in numbers. The old way of doing things is gradually being questioned, a new bar set, we can look at bodies and movement patterns, know better and do better.

I am great on the theory but still leaning learning learning on that but especially on the practice, the eye on a moving horse, on those subtle cues that the horse isn't quite comfortable. I do feel guilt over how I managed my own horses in the past but we can't change what we've done. We can accept it for what it was, be open to learning, and strive to do better.

Yes to most of this, but please do not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not everything old is bad, just as not everything new is good. Horses - any animal - are not simply "science", and experience is not something to be dismissed out of hand.

P.S. Experience and tradition are different things.

 

[sbloom]

Yes to most of this, but please do not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not everything old is bad, just as not everything new is good. Horses - any animal - are not simply "science", and experience is not something to be dismissed out of hand.

P.S. Experience and tradition are different things.

Oh God no, half of this isn't science though is it? I don't think a single one of those dismisses things that science has yet to explain.

I think it goes way beyond science and is down to an increased preparedness to sit with the horse, to be in touch with more spiritual stuff, and then integrate the science. We can uphold those in the past who did the very best they could for the horse with the information they had, this is a fascinating post https://www.facebook.com/cherokee87...qkctNkf9nai7V3FT9upozyL9no5hXJtfmxNQEvdyu446l (Celeste Lazaris who has a huge depth of training in anatomy etc but ultimately developed her method by observation and experiementation). I have long been a fan of the classical masters yet agree that not all photos were optimal, and it gave the haters weapons to beat the classicists over the head with. Science of Motion takes a similar if more combative approach...I wonder if, eventually, both sides WILL come together as we understand why and when our intuition is right, and when it is not.

 

[Peglo]

Horses do not have a pre-frontal cortex to their brain, which by definition makes it impossible for them to be 'naughty'. They can indeed display unwanted behaviours due to pain, bad management, lack of training etc, but the word 'naughty' is an anthropomorphism which implies intent and malice.

I’ve seen this mentioned a lot and I agree but there always seems to have to be a reason a horse won’t do something. Could a horse never say “no” just because they don’t want to do something. not in pain, not that they don’t understand, not bad training or riding but just that they don’t want to? Or does that kind of thinking come from the pre-frontal cortex too?

ETA I don’t mean them being naughty. Just that they would rather not.

 

[teapot]

I think riding schools absolutely need to do better when it comes to social licence and what a horse may be telling the coach, yard manager, or indeed client.

One of the reasons I left the industry - my morals couldn’t take it any more, and that was after two yards on the better side of average as it were.

 

[sbloom]

I’ve seen this mentioned a lot and I agree but there always seems to have to be a reason a horse won’t do something. Could a horse never say “no” just because they don’t want to do something. not in pain, not that they don’t understand, not bad training or riding but just that they don’t want to? Or does that kind of thinking come from the pre-frontal cortex too?

ETA I don’t mean them being naughty. Just that they would rather not.

My understanding is that horses are hard wired to co-operate, they are herd animals, not co-operating can ultimately lead to death. The FB resources I mention are bound to have posts on this if you search. If a horse doesn't "want" to co-operate there are layers needing to be unpeeled, traumas in the past, pain or confusion. I guess a horse in self preservation mode being asked to do something harmful (can anyone think of an example?) might seem to not "want" to without any explanation that many of us would easily grasp.

 

[SEL]

I'm sorry, I can't agree with you there. As a teenager, I was someone swapped on hacks and asked to ride the misbehaving pony because I was stickable and I can't say that even now I can definitively tell the difference between a horse which is "just fresh" and one which is trying to tell me things aren't quite right. I've got quite a record, too, in finding out what's wrong with horses other very experienced people say are just excited or naughty.
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I was the kid thrown up on anything and everything and I look back at some of those memories now and wince. I could get the slow ones moving forward and stick the bucks on the naughty ones. I'm sure some were just 'school sick' or fresh but many were expressing discomfort and I didn't know any better (or didn't want to know - I was quite competitive when I was young). I wasn't surrounded by people who asked me to stop and think. I've had a little quiet ask for forgiveness many times and the hope that those horses know they made me a better horse person down the line.

I think riding schools absolutely need to do better when it comes to social licence and what a horse may be telling the coach, yard manager, or indeed client.

I've been a livery at riding schools and known some very well qualified instructors who just couldn't see discomfort in the horse in front of them. One who slapped a horse in side reins because it wouldn't go on the bit and said it was naughty when it was running out at jumps. That took a bodyworker asking for vet sign off before the long, long list of skeletal problems was uncovered. I'm just not sure the BHS exams really cover anything other than 'dummies guide to lameness' so unless you've got an obvious head bop the penny doesn't drop. But it should.

 

[clinkerbuilt]

I think riding schools absolutely need to do better when it comes to social licence and what a horse may be telling the coach, yard manager, or indeed client.

One of the reasons I left the industry - my morals couldn’t take it any more, and that was after two yards on the better side of average as it were.

This. Over and over.

 

[teapot]

I've been a livery at riding schools and known some very well qualified instructors who just couldn't see discomfort in the horse in front of them. One who slapped a horse in side reins because it wouldn't go on the bit and said it was naughty when it was running out at jumps. That took a bodyworker asking for vet sign off before the long, long list of skeletal problems was uncovered. I'm just not sure the BHS exams really cover anything other than 'dummies guide to lameness' so unless you've got an obvious head bop the penny doesn't drop. But it should.

Tbf I’d say there’s a huge issue within some riding schools that only one person has final say, and teaching staff are told to get on with it, or ‘oh x client won’t notice (yes they bloody do), rather than the exams system per se. I’ve also seen senior, well qualified people quit in such circumstances… The BHS as a whole, let alone exams are not without issue however!

Any junior member of staff is always going to have to refer up anyway in a structured yard environment at least.


Which leads me onto how long ‘ serviceably sound’ horses (a bit stiff or tight for first five mins, well cared for, loosen up, can still go well with correct schooling) will last in rs environments as social licence becomes more and more under the microscope.

 

[Rowreach]

I'm just not sure the BHS exams really cover anything other than 'dummies guide to lameness' so unless you've got an obvious head bop the penny doesn't drop. But it should.

I've sat on horses in BHS exams at various levels and raised soundness issues (some pretty serious ones) with the assessors at the time, and been told nothing wrong with it/always does that/get on with it. And I've had a BHS Fellow tell me to kick a horse on and stop fannying about with a slow warm up when the horse in question needed a bit more time (hocks). This was in front of a whole group of people training for their I exam, all of whom went on to pass it, yet none of them knew what they were looking at or said a word. I don't actually know why they bothered making them sit that exam, they were a cohort set up to pass, whatever.

 

[Rowreach]

This. Over and over.

Yup, the best paid job I've ever had was at a big, well known, popular centre. I lasted just weeks, couldn't handle the management/regime/shut down depressed horses/other things that were huge red flag welfare issues. And despite my job title, I wasn't allowed to change a single thing.

 

[Dexter]

There are so many mistruths bandied around in the horse world, often by people who have years of practical experience but have not made any effort to keep up with modern science, and are so prejudice and set in their beliefs that they think they are above it.

A large majority of people are adamant that their opinion trumps the facts. The science can prove something without doubt, but people will say, yes but I still think x or y. I see it on here a lot.

 

[sbloom]

Science is always open to challenge, it is never settled but it is a basis from which to work. Science can be used to prove a lot of things that are not universally true, makes for some challenging discussions. I see some very dodgy "research" being done on tack that has an unhelpfully narrow focus, is paid for by someone with very vested interests, or is otherwise compromised, yet it will be shouted from the rooftops and used to beat people around the head.

The better we can understand scientific method, how to interpret results, how to look at statistics (validity and reliability) the better we can work out what is helpful and what is not.

 

[stangs]

I’ve seen this mentioned a lot and I agree but there always seems to have to be a reason a horse won’t do something. Could a horse never say “no” just because they don’t want to do something. not in pain, not that they don’t understand, not bad training or riding but just that they don’t want to? Or does that kind of thinking come from the pre-frontal cortex too?

ETA I don’t mean them being naughty. Just that they would rather not.

I'm no neuroscientist, so take this with a very big pinch of salt, but, from what I've read, the pre-frontal cortex stuff is much more complicated than what typically gets portrayed. There's different definitions of the pre-frontal cortex, and there's different views on whether mammals excluding primates have them. But generally speaking, the pre-frontal cortex is just about whether you've planned or contemplated your actions, so not having one just means a horse shouldn't be able to plan a 'no' in advance.

Back to your question, I don't think any organism says 'no' without there being a reason for it (even if we humans can't always articulate what's made us not want to do something). In horses, a 'no' is very unlikely to come from just wanting to be contrary, but, if there's no extrinsic or intrinsic motivation for a behaviour, or if the cost of an action outweighs the benefits, you're going to get a 'no'. The lack of motivation may be because of a bad rider, the high cost of an action may be because of pain, but it doesn't have to be.

My boy, who has little intrinsic motivation to move, says 'no' a lot in our target training sessions. Sometimes he just leaves, sometimes he starts grazing instead of going for the target, sometimes he just stands still for a bit before following the target, and so on. There have been times where his 'no' is obviously to do with pain/stress, but for the most part these 'no's are perfectly natural imo. I don't see them as any different to when he stops playing bitey face with a herdmate, or when he chooses to keep grazing while his herdmates have a canter. Sure, cooperation in herd animals is important but they're not just mindless yes-men.

 

[Peglo]

I'm no neuroscientist, so take this with a very big pinch of salt, but, from what I've read, the pre-frontal cortex stuff is much more complicated than what typically gets portrayed. There's different definitions of the pre-frontal cortex, and there's different views on whether mammals excluding primates have them. But generally speaking, the pre-frontal cortex is just about whether you've planned or contemplated your actions, so not having one just means a horse shouldn't be able to plan a 'no' in advance.

Back to your question, I don't think any organism says 'no' without there being a reason for it (even if we humans can't always articulate what's made us not want to do something). In horses, a 'no' is very unlikely to come from just wanting to be contrary, but, if there's no extrinsic or intrinsic motivation for a behaviour, or if the cost of an action outweighs the benefits, you're going to get a 'no'. The lack of motivation may be because of a bad rider, the high cost of an action may be because of pain, but it doesn't have to be.

My boy, who has little intrinsic motivation to move, says 'no' a lot in our target training sessions. Sometimes he just leaves, sometimes he starts grazing instead of going for the target, sometimes he just stands still for a bit before following the target, and so on. There have been times where his 'no' is obviously to do with pain/stress, but for the most part these 'no's are perfectly natural imo. I don't see them as any different to when he stops playing bitey face with a herdmate, or when he chooses to keep grazing while his herdmates have a canter. Sure, cooperation in herd animals is important but they're not just mindless yes-men.

really interesting reply. Thank you. ? That all makes a lot of sense