Social Licence vs Opinion

[sakura]

I briefly followed a local, very well regarded RS on social media. I saw a video of a young child "pony club kicking" the cr*p out of a very tired looking, resigned to it's job pony and immediately unfollowed. I know that's extremely common place, but I didn't enjoy watching it.

 

[Dexter]

Science is always open to challenge, it is never settled but it is a basis from which to work. Science can be used to prove a lot of things that are not universally true, makes for some challenging discussions. I see some very dodgy "research" being done on tack that has an unhelpfully narrow focus, is paid for by someone with very vested interests, or is otherwise compromised, yet it will be shouted from the rooftops and used to beat people around the head.

The better we can understand scientific method, how to interpret results, how to look at statistics (validity and reliability) the better we can work out what is helpful and what is not.

People do twist and manipulate things, the MSM is terrible for doing that. I've seen some awful stuff from the total contact saddle people that makes me want to bang my head off the desk, and they arent the only ones doing it. But that's very different to the "science" I'm talking about.

People need to be looking at peer reviewed and journal published articles. Ideally where there's more than one researcher saying broadly the same thing. Its usually easy to find, and if you cant find the whole article most researchers will be delighted to send you it for free if you ask.

 

[ycbm]

I’ve seen this mentioned a lot and I agree but there always seems to have to be a reason a horse won’t do something. Could a horse never say “no” just because they don’t want to do something. not in pain, not that they don’t understand, not bad training or riding but just that they don’t want to? Or does that kind of thinking come from the pre-frontal cortex too?

ETA I don’t mean them being naughty. Just that they would rather not.

The classic one would be "no I don't want to leave the yard, I feel safe in this yard with my friends and I don't know what I'll find if you make me go out there".

I would say perhaps the majority of horses have it in them to try that "no", especially in the early days of solo hacking.
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[Miss_Millie]

I’ve seen this mentioned a lot and I agree but there always seems to have to be a reason a horse won’t do something. Could a horse never say “no” just because they don’t want to do something. not in pain, not that they don’t understand, not bad training or riding but just that they don’t want to? Or does that kind of thinking come from the pre-frontal cortex too?

ETA I don’t mean them being naughty. Just that they would rather not.

I think Stangs and Sbloom have covered this all very well. I would only add that most horses are not trained with much autonomy, so most horses will give a 'yes' answer to avoid punishment or other kinds of aversive treatment. Maybe these horses gave 'no' answers early in their training, but soon learnt that a 'no' = hit with stick, pulled in mouth etc, and learn that it is safer/easier to always say yes.

It then seems extreme to owners when their horse 'out of nowhere' starts biting because it hurts for them to be girthed, or bucking because the saddle doesn't fit. It takes the pain being worse than the potential punishment for the horse to finally say a loud 'no'. And this is when the 'they're being naughty' spiel comes out, because the owner is only used to absolute obedience.

 

[Miss_Millie]

The classic one would be "no I don't want to leave the yard, I feel safe in this yard with my friends and I don't know what I'll find if you make me go out there".

I would say perhaps the majority of horses have it in them to try that "no", especially in the early days of solo hacking.
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And most people resolve this by hitting their horses until they go forward (from what I have personally seen over the years anyway). The punishment of being hit becomes worse than the separation anxiety, and thus the horse goes forward away from the yard.

 

[Miss_Millie]

People do twist and manipulate things, the MSM is terrible for doing that. I've seen some awful stuff from the total contact saddle people that makes me want to bang my head off the desk, and they arent the only ones doing it. But that's very different to the "science" I'm talking about.

People need to be looking at peer reviewed and journal published articles. Ideally where there's more than one researcher saying broadly the same thing. Its usually easy to find, and if you cant find the whole article most researchers will be delighted to send you it for free if you ask.

You will have to elaborate on this. I agree re. peer reviewed articles.

 

[maya2008]

And most people resolve this by hitting their horses until they go forward (from what I have personally seen over the years anyway). The punishment of being hit becomes worse than the separation anxiety, and thus the horse goes forward away from the yard.

Being scarier than the scary thing… humans use that to bring up their own children (get your work done or else!) and with adults (do it or you will lose your job!). In a herd, also applied by other horses - nipping on the flanks of one who won’t go where they are told for example.

I always get told I’m mad when I suggest getting off and showing the horse it’s ok.

 

[clinkerbuilt]

merely post-scripting everyone else's posts with this piece, unless it's been posted further up:
https://equusmagazine.com/behavior/indirect-training/

 

[ycbm]

And most people resolve this by hitting their horses until they go forward (from what I have personally seen over the years anyway). The punishment of being hit becomes worse than the separation anxiety, and thus the horse goes forward away from the yard.

That's not my experience. Most people I've known who take reluctant horses out solo will simply give the horse a squeeze and carry it out the gate on a tide of their own confidence, not by hitting it.
.

 

[sbloom]

Apparently Valegro loved flying according to Alan Davies on HHO. Thoughts?

 

[ycbm]

Apparently Valegro loved flying according to Alan Davies on HHO. Thoughts?

I have had one horse who would get into any lorry with the ramp down unless you stopped him. So I'll believe that a horse loves flying when I see them try and drag their handler into an airline travel crate.

Until then, he's fooling himself to justify what is done to horses for the human prestige of international competition.
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[sbloom]

I have had one horse who would get into any lorry with the ramp down unless you stopped him. So I'll believe that a horse loves flying when I see them try and drag their handler into an airline travel crate.

Until then, he's fooling himself to justify what is done to horses for the human prestige of international competition.
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But did the horse enjoy travelling in and of itself? If you travelled that horse without anything fun at the end, over and over, would it continue to enjoy it ad nauseam? Clearly there's only one answer to that which is that basically they put up with it because of another reward related to it, and that's only if we can truly read stress responses, so many seem to think they're excitement and positive.

 

[Cortez]

I have had one horse who would get into any lorry with the ramp down unless you stopped him. So I'll believe that a horse loves flying when I see them try and drag their handler into an airline travel crate.

Until then, he's fooling himself to justify what is done to horses for the human prestige of international competition.
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I’ve travelled with horses on flights several times, honestly they were no more stressed than they would be travelling by road. Those that were normally good travellers were grand, those that were nervous travellers were likewise a bit upset. I was more worried than the horses (not a great air passenger).

 

[tristar]

Being scarier than the scary thing… humans use that to bring up their own children (get your work done or else!) and with adults (do it or you will lose your job!). In a herd, also applied by other horses - nipping on the flanks of one who won’t go where they are told for example.

I always get told I’m mad when I suggest getting off and showing the horse it’s ok.

i agree with that.
on the rare occasions it is needed i would get off and lead past, first i would ask the horse ridden to go on, if it said no, i would, according to how it is acting, ie, frozen or snorting, pop eyed etc or just quietly processing sit and ask again, or jump off quick, lead it past the object, then let it look and perhaps smell and touch it, then get back on, if it goes well i do it quickly and hop back on, as if nothing had happened, because i want get back on soon as poss, and carry on as if nothing happened

i think the rider getting off to lead past tells the horse, ``look i understand you dont like it, but i am here with you on the ground, i will not let it hurts you, see there is nothing fear``

minimal fuss, maximum reassurance.

 

[Sossigpoker]

I have had one horse who would get into any lorry with the ramp down unless you stopped him. So I'll believe that a horse loves flying when I see them try and drag their handler into an airline travel crate.

Until then, he's fooling himself to justify what is done to horses for the human prestige of international competition.
.

I don't think flying is much worse or better than anything else that could be frightening that we ask of our horses. Anything from getting their teeth done to being clipped or loaded onto a lorry.
For some horses , like my old one, being loaded would be a major trauma but no one talks about loading into lorry being as scary as being loaded into an airplane.

Vallegro probably enjoyed all the carrots he got on the flight and the fuss from Alan rather than the flying. But as he was so trusting in Alan , it doesn't sound like the whole process was stressful for him.

 

[Dexter]

You will have to elaborate on this. I agree re. peer reviewed articles.

Have a look at their website for the "research" they use to promote the "saddles" which then gets bandied about by people as gospel.

 

[stangs]

Apparently Valegro loved flying according to Alan Davies on HHO. Thoughts?

I think there's a big difference between being habituated to an experience, and actively enjoying it. I'd be interested to know why he thought Valegro fell into the second category because, from what the journalist's quoted, it sounds like habituation to me (not that there's anything inherently wrong with that).

 

[Rowreach]

I think there's a big difference between being habituated to an experience, and actively enjoying it. I'd be interested to know why he thought Valegro fell into the second category because, from what the journalist's quoted, it sounds like habituation to me (not that there's anything inherently wrong with that).

I imagine it was the gold medals that swung it ...

 

[maisie06]

I also saw the L52 video on TikTok and thought some of the comments were really over the top. In general I think it's good more people are aware and keeping horse welfare in mind and to question pros sometimes (poor practice happens at all levels of course), but the context of the video (i.e., a compilation of the same horse, same time of year, post-break first jump session) didn't scream welfare problem to me this time round.

Link for anyone not familiar: https://www.tiktok.com/@lauracollet...1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7098036791777314310

She should ride rodeo, she'd be in the winnings!! seriously, that is a fresh horse looking like he's full of fun and wanting to get on with it!!

 

[scats]

To say they enjoy it is just a way of putting human emotions on things. I think competition horses get so used to it that it simply becomes a way of life and probably no different to me saying that my horses seem to enjoy a pootle around the block. It’s an ears up, happy kind of expression, but I have no idea if that’s enjoyment, contentment or just a horse in a comfortable routine who feels safe and secure in that moment.

 

[sbloom]

Or a mild learned helplessness of sorts.

 

[stangs]

Or a mild learned helplessness of sorts.

Is mild learned helplessness a thing? Surely you're either no longer responsive to any stimuli or you're responsive?

 

[ycbm]

Is mild learned helplessness a thing? Surely you're either no longer responsive to any stimuli or you're responsive?

I don't see any reason why a horse wouldn't understand that it has no choice at all about going out on a hack (learned helplessness) while also taking some interest in whether a lion was going to jump out of a hedge (responsiveness).
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[Boulty]

Just musing here but I guess to reliably have an idea on whether a horse is in pain and acting out because of that, whether they're not in physical pain but struggling with what is asked mentally or whether they're simply full of the joys of whatever season it is you'd probably have needed to have sat on that horse under all of those conditions whilst knowing (even if only in hindsight) that this was the case. The Welsh I used to have definitely gave off different "vibes" when he had pain somewhere versus when he was just fit and excited at being out and about (especially if he had friends to "race" / show off to / was generally in a playful mood). Even knowing this it took 3 different vets before I'd find one who'd believe me when I was convinced something felt "wrong" at the start of his back & neck pain issues (& I still dismissed a few things as me being paranoid at first because the vets kept telling me all was well). The main issue was that he wasn't actually lame initially just not travelling completely straight behind along with other very vague symptoms.

 

[sbloom]

This lady is an exceptional Swiss saddle fitted, usually posts about balance and posture but here's an interesting one that relates to what's ere talking about, paying attention to just ONE sign from the pain ethogram has transformed her relationship with her horse https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...JDDx2xftG3jvuXNHKUiHvcegzl&id=100063581261749

 

[eahotson]

Apparently Valegro loved flying according to Alan Davies on HHO. Thoughts?

Think I will keep my thoughts to myself!

 

[blitznbobs]

I have a horse that enjoyed travelling or just going out for the day (how the hell do you tell which) when he retired he always got p’d off and sulked that he wasnt going … but if we had a gap we would throw him on the back of the lorry and just let him mooch round at the competition and he was much more chilled about life… it depends how you look at things but that horse would definitely rather have gone than be left at home… the horse that dawdled to the field but when you turned him away from his field companions and freedom perked up and all but jumped on the lorry does suggest to me what he wanted to do more

 

[LEC]

This lady is an exceptional Swiss saddle fitted, usually posts about balance and posture but here's an interesting one that relates to what's ere talking about, paying attention to just ONE sign from the pain ethogram has transformed her relationship with her horse https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...JDDx2xftG3jvuXNHKUiHvcegzl&id=100063581261749

Is the Sue Dyson list written anywhere as not managed to find it listed?

 

[Rowreach]

Is the Sue Dyson list written anywhere as not managed to find it listed?

 

[Season’s Bleatings]

I haven’t fully caught up on everything in this thread but I think its a very useful construct.
I have been increasingly aware of how my actions around horse care have been perceived, particularly in the last year as my horse had sustained a fairly serious (possibly career ending) injury which has required lengthy periods of box rest.
My horsey peers totally understand what I’ve been doing but I’m also surrounded by non-horsey folks and it has been useful to listen to their perspectives and questions.
I’m not a fan of box rest by any stretch but this has unfortunately been a necessary evil and our horse has been an excellent patient. But it has been difficult to “put him through” it, depriving him of freedom essentially so we can possibly ride him again. The mental burden is definitely more significant than the physical effort.