Stallion Showcase GB

[Truly]

I saw H-Tobago in the stable as well as the arena....I didn't see anything that would make me question his temperament ?

They do show the Arabs totally different than Sport Horses and they are expected to show off...hence the plastic bag on the whip.

I'm not an Arab person , I'm a Sport Horse person but have seen plenty of Arab classes to know they present them in a totally different way with as much 'look at me' presence as possible....it can be quite difficult when you are trying to keep your Sport Horse youngster calm in the ring next door to the Arabs being gee'd up lol

 

[EstherYoung]

They do show the Arabs totally different than Sport Horses and they are expected to show off...hence the plastic bag on the whip.

I'm not an Arab person , I'm a Sport Horse person but have seen plenty of Arab classes to know they present them in a totally different way with as much 'look at me' presence as possible....it can be quite difficult when you are trying to keep your Sport Horse youngster calm in the ring next door to the Arabs being gee'd up lol

Some of these comments just makes me sad because its not the breed I know and love And doubly sad knowing how we had to unpick our Spud's frazzled brain after he'd had the first 6 years of his life fried by the arab in hand show world

Re Tobago, I don't know the horse personally but I don't think there's any malice in him, he's just an over-active big kid. I hope one day he'll be able to re-start his ridden work.

 

[Rollin]

Not all Arab shows are like that.

Here is video from the Shagya France Website of the stallion gradings in 2011. There are other videos on this site and non of the behaviour described and no plastic bags on the end of sticks. My boy on this film. D/K if that is allowed!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv0nKWOpsOE

more videos on Shagya France website (AFCAS)

 

[ritajennings]

I feel I have to comment again, even though I have been 'Warned'
I saw HTobago and the other stallion that shall been know as Stallion B . Stallion B being the larger and older of the two boys at no time felt intimidated by HTobago or his manner would have been completely different, being a macho stallion if he had sensed any aggression or anger from HTobago Stallion B would have been on the defensive and he would have tried to dominate HTobago, but this was never the case during they time stabled next to each other they nuzzled and communicated as any two horses would.
I worry when people start making remarks about stallions and their temperaments it is very easy for something like this to get out of hand.

I have seen many times stallions getting a bad reputation when it is just not deserved on the other hand I have also heard of stallion getting a good reputation when that is not deserved either.

I just felt I needed to comment as I did witness the two stallions in questions and I speak as I find

 

[JanetGeorge]

I wasn't referring to him in the stable, but in the ring. He hasn't done much under saddle himself, so I reserve judgement until his offspring prove themselves under saddle.
I personally prefer to use stallions that either have proven ride ability or offspring out competing. Each to their own, that's just my opinion.

It's certainly 'nice' if a stallion is out being ridden - but this is sometimes prevented by injury - or age - or even lack of a suitable jockey. And it's even 'nicer' if they have progeny out under saddle. It makes you feel so much better about your opinion!

However, a lot of TOP stallions didn't get the opportunity - for various reasons - and if mare owners hadn't trusted their own 'eye' and their judgement, many would have been 'lost'!

And if no-one uses a very young stallion who has not yet 'proved' himself, there is a real risk that he will be either 1) too expensive - or 2) dead by the time he HAS proven himself.

Anyway, if a stallion moves well in hand - and shows a good temperament in hand - he SHOULD be a good ride. If he's not, it's more likely someone screwed up his backing than that he has an 'unrideable' gene!

I can't WAIT for my two H Tobago foals to be born - I'm totally confident they will be 'special'! And I'm lusting over Shirley Light's 3 year old - Cambrio van Overis Z - shown in hand - I suspect he'll be pretty rideable when he's old enough to start proper work. But I can afford him now - which I almost certainly WON'T be able to do once he proves himself to be as brilliant as his bloodlines and conformation suggest he will be. So I'll gamble on my judgement!

 

[eventrider23]

Janet - you're not seriously branching away from your ID breeding to use a WB are you? Surely not!! Lol

 

[koeffee]

It's certainly 'nice' if a stallion is out being ridden - but this is sometimes prevented by injury - or age - or even lack of a suitable jockey. And it's even 'nicer' if they have progeny out under saddle. It makes you feel so much better about your opinion!

However, a lot of TOP stallions didn't get the opportunity - for various reasons - and if mare owners hadn't trusted their own 'eye' and their judgement, many would have been 'lost'!

And if no-one uses a very young stallion who has not yet 'proved' himself, there is a real risk that he will be either 1) too expensive - or 2) dead by the time he HAS proven himself.

Anyway, if a stallion moves well in hand - and shows a good temperament in hand - he SHOULD be a good ride. If he's not, it's more likely someone screwed up his backing than that he has an 'unrideable' gene!

I can't WAIT for my two H Tobago foals to be born - I'm totally confident they will be 'special'! And I'm lusting over Shirley Light's 3 year old - Cambrio van Overis Z - shown in hand - I suspect he'll be pretty rideable when he's old enough to start proper work. But I can afford him now - which I almost certainly WON'T be able to do once he proves himself to be as brilliant as his bloodlines and conformation suggest he will be. So I'll gamble on my judgement!

Need a like button, i adore Cambrio also and im using him too!!!

 

[christine48]

H Tobago is one of the nicest Arabs I've seen conformation wise, but I still stand by my opinion. Good luck with your foals I'm sure he will be ideal to refine the ID.

 

[sallyf]

H Tobago is one of the nicest Arabs I've seen conformation wise, but I still stand by my opinion. Good luck with your foals I'm sure he will be ideal to refine the ID.

Im going to side with Christine here and say that a stallions temp with other stallions and in hand has absolutely no bearing on his rideability under saddle.

I also agree Htobago is absolutely beautiful but personally if i was looking to add arab blood in i would want to know it had rideability under saddle first even if that was just daily hacking out.
A hypothetical answer as not what i would personally do as i wouldnt want to risk losing jump in the foal and movement also isnt an issue i need to address.
I owned a stunning welsh x arab who had a fab temperment but no ability.
Ive also worked with alot of performance and racing arabs (pure/anglo and part bred)and there was little consistency in there ability despite most being related to good performance lines.
I can see the logic in using something like Htobago to breed small dressage horses and ponies but not something to jump.
And good futurity marks as a youngster also give little indication on whether anything will have the rideability to make a top class horse

 

[JanetGeorge]

Janet - you're not seriously branching away from your ID breeding to use a WB are you? Surely not!! Lol

Why not?? I will still be continuing to breed pure IDs - with my own stallions and the gorgeous Archie - but there have been some rule changes forced upon ID sport horses and the grading up register by Horse Sport Ireland that mean some of my IDx mares' progeny will no longer be eligible for grading up.

The two mares in foal to H Tobago for this year - one is an IDxTB (stunning mare - who has stunning foals by an RID stallion - two fillies have graded onto the Appendix ID register) but because we can't PROVE her dam was TB, she's now excluded from grading up! I LOVE Anglo-Arabs and I think I'll like an ALMOST A-A with a good dash of ID even more! And the other mare is a TBx (by Carmel Head but we can't PROVE ID breeding) so she's 'out' as well. I'd put money on her being 3/4 TB with 1/4 ID - so again - the foal will be ALMOST A-A, but with that extra bit of substance and brain.

And the BEST riding horse I own is a WBxIDSH (he has the best of ALL worlds!) I didn't breed him - but if I could breed something LIKE him I'd be more than happy!

When I saw pics of Cambrio, I thought he looked like a 'refined' version of this horse.

He is out of the IDxTB mare BY an ID (the dam has thrown very much to the TB - and her 3/4 ID progeny look more as you'd expect a first cross to look.) So I figured if she can produce this by a BIG, beefy ID she SHOULD be able to produce a stunner by Cambrio (she's in foal to H Tobago for this year and that should be stunning too!)

 

[christine48]

Im going to side with Christine here and say that a stallions temp with other stallions and in hand has absolutely no bearing on his rideability under saddle.

I also agree Htobago is absolutely beautiful but personally if i was looking to add arab blood in i would want to know it had rideability under saddle first even if that was just daily hacking out.
A hypothetical answer as not what i would personally do as i wouldnt want to risk losing jump in the foal and movement also isnt an issue i need to address.
I owned a stunning welsh x arab who had a fab temperment but no ability.
Ive also worked with alot of performance and racing arabs (pure/anglo and part bred)and there was little consistency in there ability despite most being related to good performance lines.
I can see the logic in using something like Htobago to breed small dressage horses and ponies but not something to jump.
And good futurity marks as a youngster also give little indication on whether anything will have the rideability to make a top class horse

Thank you Sally. I like you prefer to keep the jump when breeding, therefore would not choose to use an Arab. To me he just looked very hot in the ring and I was thinking OMG if he gets loose, god help that foal.
I saw him in the stable, on his hind legs where as the ID stallion wasn't bothered at all.
Surely if he is sound enough to move as he does in hand, he could be shown under saddle.

 

[Asha]

And if no-one uses a very young stallion who has not yet 'proved' himself, there is a real risk that he will be either 1) too expensive - or 2) dead by the time he HAS proven himself.

D

I dont understand the argument for unproven young stallions with reference price of the stud fee. Cambrio's stud fee is £300 plus £100 booking fee. You can get Verdi for 1500 euros ( equivalent of £1200), so a net difference of £800 !

when you consider all the costs of raising a foal until a 4 yo, the stud fee is a very small percentage.

 

[JanetGeorge]

I saw him in the stable, on his hind legs where as the ID stallion wasn't bothered at all.

Eek - if you'd seen my ID colt at grading you'd have said what the Inspectors said!! (which wasn't polite!) He reared in the stable, he reared in the ring - and a bit more! (Admittedly, he DID fly buck and nearly removed the head of one of them! ) But it was just a testosterone surge in a colt who hadn't been out much. He was one of the easiest horses we've ever backed - and he's easy-peasy to ride - even through the stud season when there are in-season mares in every field. And the best behaved weanling I have at present is one of his!

Everything I've seen of H Tobago assures me that next year, my best behaved weanling is VERY likely to be one of his!

 

[eventrider23]

Janet - that will be a GORGEOUS foal!!! I love Cambrio and his sire Clintissimo stole the show for me at his Z grading - I totally fell in love with him and Cambrio is almost a clone!!

Regards Tobago and the ridden work...I too would LOVE to see him back under saddle and will always keep fingers crossed that one day he will be re-started even if yes just to do light work but it isn't the be all and end all. I like the horse, I love the temperament he is throwing and in all his good points outweigh the down sides. There are many decent sport horse sires that have never done anything of note themselves whatsoever....in hand or under saddle..,and so who is to say he won't be one...at least he has done everything he bas in hand and his progeny likewise. It doesn't have to be this generation as who knows he may prove to be a 2nd generation dam site or whatever..,time will tell. But what I do know is that people like him. If they want to use him then good on then and it's their gamble (as it will be mine at some point) and it may pay off...it may not...same as, realistically with any form of breeding. Just think - I would have LOVED to be one of those very very few breeders who gambled on using a young unpopular stallion called Arko when he was a young ungraded stallion who was available at stud for a few hundred pounds but had few takers, with a current stud fee in the thousands I think it is those people having the last laugh there.

 

[eventrider23]

As regards using unproven stallions....SOMEONE has to use them in order for their to be progeny on the ground to judge by and indeed increase in popularity! If no one ever used young unproven stallions then we wouldn't get these older established greats!

 

[JanetGeorge]

I dont understand the argument for unproven young stallions with reference price of the stud fee. Cambrio's stud fee is £300 plus £100 booking fee. You can get Verdi for 1500 euros ( equivalent of £1200), so a net difference of £800 !

when you consider all the costs of raising a foal until a 4 yo, the stud fee is a very small percentage.

I'd check the extras for Verdi if you're thinking of using him - by the time you add health papers and VAT it's closer to £1700 - so a net difference of at least £1200. He's stunning - and I LOVE his breeding - but I CAN'T justify that sort of stud fee on an ID SH mare - no matter HOW nice I think she is - because buyers won't pay BIG money for a Verdi out of an 'unfashionable' mare!

But I CAN afford Cambrio's stud fee for her - and produce a very nice horse - who I'll probably keep until it's backed and going well.

 

[christine48]

I would use an unproven stallion,providing it had proven jumping bloodlines. In fact one stallion I'm really interested in is Contendros who is closely related to Codex one who jumps internationally.they are both by Contendro 1 and their dam line is very close in that Gypsy, dam of Codex one is Contendros's grand dam.

 

[Asha]

I'd check the extras for Verdi if you're thinking of using him - by the time you add health papers and VAT it's closer to £1700 - so a net difference of at least £1200. He's stunning - and I LOVE his breeding - but I CAN'T justify that sort of stud fee on an ID SH mare - no matter HOW nice I think she is - because buyers won't pay BIG money for a Verdi out of an 'unfashionable' mare!

But I CAN afford Cambrio's stud fee for her - and produce a very nice horse - who I'll probably keep until it's backed and going well.

Oh no, wont be breeding again for a bit. Just used Verdi as an example.

Dont get me wrong, i used an unproven young stallion, got a belter of a foal !
Chose the stalllion, as i believed he would compliment my mare.

Just firmly believe that the price of the stud fee is the last thing to consider.

For the sake of a few hundred £'s over 4/5 years surely its hardly relevant.

 

[eventrider23]

But Christine isn't that just it there though..horses for courses. If Tobago matches the attributes being sought by someone in the same way your unproven Sj bred stallion does for you then using him would come down to the same thing/reasons. God he certainly wouldn't be a 'gambling' idea for a jump mare as that first generation foal wouldn't likely be ideal HOWEVER if a breeder had an older fashioned stamp of mare and was aiming to get what I call a 'stage' horse I.e adding the blood in which can then be used especially if a mare to then cross back to more traditional breeding for future generations then he would be a good blood infuser.

(hope this makes sense - battling a sick bug so not feeling the most articulate here)

 

[christine48]

But Christine isn't that just it there though..horses for courses. If Tobago matches the attributes being sought by someone in the same way your unproven Sj bred stallion does for you then using him would come down to the same thing/reasons. God he certainly wouldn't be a 'gambling' idea for a jump mare as that first generation foal wouldn't likely be ideal HOWEVER if a breeder had an older fashioned stamp of mare and was aiming to get what I call a 'stage' horse I.e adding the blood in which can then be used especially if a mare to then cross back to more traditional breeding for future generations then he would be a good blood infuser.

(hope this makes sense - battling a sick bug so not feeling the most articulate here)

Not many Arabs eventing or SJ are there? Don't get me wrong they are lovely to look at but I'm not interested in endurance riding, racing or showing.
The unproven stallions which I would use come from generations of jump breeding and have themselves been performance tested in the very least.
I still say I would like to see him under saddle, I can't find any pictures of him being ridden anywhere.
However he moved beautifully and at least he was sound unlike a couple of the other stallions.
If Arabs were renound for jumping and if he had some sort of competition record I have a warmblood mare who he'd complement conformation wise. However at the moment it would be too much of a gamble

 

[JanetGeorge]

As regards using unproven stallions....SOMEONE has to use them in order for their to be progeny on the ground to judge by and indeed increase in popularity! If no one ever used young unproven stallions then we wouldn't get these older established greats!

Exactly! I'm realistic about the mares I want to use Cambrio on. They're 'nicely' bred but certainly not the sort of breeding that would bring in buyers with lots of ££££! But they've both produced VERY nice foals (repeatedly) who are immensely trainable, move well and jump well. And if I get a Cambrio filly from one of them, I'd certainly want to keep her because SHE would be worth - perhaps - a much higher stud fee to a PROVEN stallion. And - by then - if Cambrio is as good as I think he might be, he'll be proven too!

 

[eventrider23]

Will get some stats tomorrow as not on the proper computer here but of course there is Arab blood in those sports. The Trakehner breed alone will only allow Arab or TB blood as approved outcrosses as they know the value of adding it back in. Look at many sport horse pedigrees and there is Arab back in there whose effects are seen. Hence why I said as a generation/stage horse to add blood back in to go down the generations I feel he can be useful. Of course time will tell on that one. Eventing wise we only have to look at good old Tamarillo to see Arab blood in action. And standing at stud is Persiflage. I will get some more refs tomo though.

I do remember seeing video footage of tobago on a forum somewhere when first under saddle. The rider was in a field and decided to pop over the xc fences out there - it was only a few days post backing - and he loved it. I will have to endeavour to find it. It was one of the reasons he first caught my eye. And well he's doing something right if Julia Hodkin is now using him on Future Illusion's dam this year based on the strength of his foals.

 

[eventrider23]

Janet - if I could afford it this year I would be using Cambrio in a heartbeat!!

 

[cloppy]

would also like to confirm as the breeder of two Tobagolings that they have the most wonderful temperaments and these are out of a trakehner mare. A well respected judge and breeder did actually pm me when I bred my first one to ask about the termperament of this cross, all I could do was to breed another one to make sure it wasn't a fluke and I'm not disappionted.

 

[Truly]

Not only has the Trakehner got loads of Arab blood...take a look at any Selle Francais pedigree!

 

[EstherYoung]

Traks are virtually anglo arabs. Ditto Selle Francais. Westphalen Ponies are heavily descended from good old fashioned British Riding Ponies and most have enough welsh and arab blood to be registered as part bred arabs and part bred welsh.

Arab blood is pretty darned important and nothing to be ashamed of. We should be celebrating it, not pretending it is not there. And they're not all bonkers spinny spinny twirly creatures as portrayed by the in hand show circuit.

Hopefully there are winds of change on the in hand circuit. This British bred mare was World Champion in 2011 and US Champion in 2012 (with the highest score ever):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zhp63X3ne8
(Ignore the schmalzy slo mo in the vid but it's worth a watch). Her 'people' adore her and she isn't shanked or psyched - she's got natural presence in spades.
The bloodlines aren't all poncy without substance, either. She's the neice of our two grey arabs, she's the cousin of Jess's Tiger (the lass with the gorgeous bay arab who posts on here), this is another of her uncles: http://www.flickr.com/photos/72616463@N00/3216775306/ and this is another: http://www.in-the-focus.com/arabianstore/details.php?gid=326&pid=9946
(And that's just from the side of her pedigree that I know about)

 

[EstherYoung]

ps Just to link back to Tobago, Jasmeenah also has some ancestors in common with him on the sireline I think

 

[shirleyno2]

Firstly, thanks for lovely comments re Cambrio!
Secondly, I have watched Tabago for a couple of years now (from a distance I admit!) - If you watch him doing his hi jinks he is purely playing, I have never seen him strike out with either front or back legs, now how many stallions can you say that about when they are leaping around? No stallion should be marred for having a look over a stable wall at his neighbour, especially when in a barn of 30 or so testosterone stallions!!!
Surely the best point of stallion shows is so that mare owners can see them up close in the stable and out strutting their stuff?
I do wonder if some stallions that don't ever attend these stallion shows are hiding at home???

Re assessing rideability when shown in hand, I certainly think you can gauge a lot:
how quickly they learn to lunge and trot up, accepting the bit - and if he's a strong tank in hand he is likely to be a strong ride IMO- their reaction to atmosphere/music/other horses etc.
Breeding is a personal choice and for sure we'd be up the proverbial creek with no paddles what so ever if we all liked the same thing!!
I'll go now as I've nothing more to say and I was always taught if you have nothing good to say, say nothing!!

 

[koeffee]

Proof will be when his eldest will be out ridden, it would be great to see Tobago under saddle but not a world ender!!! Alme des nids wasnt ridden ever due to injury, a few very nice rideable things around by him, to me Tobago is an arab that shows off and knows he is special, but not a loon by any means and not nasty just very playful, i have 4 boys at home and all can be ridden by a novice but can be full of it some times, all stallion are, next year i hope to get them out to some of these parades but i struggle being mile away and 2 small kids and 23 other horses to leave at home and one other person who helps!!!

 

[JanetGeorge]

Proof will be when his eldest will be out ridden, it would be great to see Tobago under saddle but not a world ender!!! Alme des nids wasnt ridden ever due to injury, a few very nice rideable things around by him,

The RID stallion Flagmount Diamond was - I believe - NEVER ridden. His full brother Flagmount King was an A Grade showjumper. Guess which one's progeny have gained the most sj points?