Stallion Showcase GB

[sallyf]

The RID stallion Flagmount Diamond was - I believe - NEVER ridden. His full brother Flagmount King was an A Grade showjumper. Guess which one's progeny have gained the most sj points?

You make the point there yourself a bit though.
Stallion never ridden but full brother to a Grade A showjumper.
Proven genetics are proven genetics the same as racehorse stallions like Sadlers Wells full brother Fairy King.
This isnt a crib against Htobago as i have said he is stunning and i believe he has uses in the sport horse market but he isnt a full brother to a high class competition horse and so from my point of view there is no proven ability to throw an eventing or showjumping horse and in the current economic climate i am using either proven stallions or one of my own because i believe that people are being much more selective in what they buy and i know what i can sell.
My own stallion didnt compete due to injury but he was broken and had been prepped ready to compete so proved rideability including being bombproof on the road ,he is also out of a mare that showjumped with an amateur at 1.35 level and whose siblings competed at affiliated level in other spheres so his pedigree is steeped in performance and all of the influential names in TB sport horse breeding so no surprise that his young competition horses jump but i wouldnt expect a commercial breeder to find him a stand out choice of stallion as there as so much choice out there available.
I wouldnt use any old TB stallion to breed an eventer either it would have to have certain key bloodlines that are prolific in eventers and showjumpers so im not being anti arab.
As ive said i spent 11 1/2 years on a yard where arabs where raced ,showed ,hunted and competed and there is a massive differance in abaility even with the ones that are from performance lines.
Yes there is much arab in WB breeding but like the TB blood they are often very specific lines with proven performance ability.
Just to add that i would use unproven stallion if it was something like Jackeroo who is on my shortlist and never been ridden but full brother to 2 olympic horses and also Shirleys young stallions as you know that Brendon assess and castrate if they dont believe that the colts will go on .

 

[christine48]

You make the point there yourself a bit though.
Stallion never ridden but full brother to a Grade A showjumper.
Proven genetics are proven genetics the same as racehorse stallions like Sadlers Wells full brother Fairy King.
This isnt a crib against Htobago as i have said he is stunning and i believe he has uses in the sport horse market but he isnt a full brother to a high class competition horse and so from my point of view there is no proven ability to throw an eventing or showjumping horse and in the current economic climate i am using either proven stallions or one of my own because i believe that people are being much more selective in what they buy and i know what i can sell.
My own stallion didnt compete due to injury but he was broken and had been prepped ready to compete so proved rideability including being bombproof on the road ,he is also out of a mare that showjumped with an amateur at 1.35 level and whose siblings competed at affiliated level in other spheres so his pedigree is steeped in performance and all of the influential names in TB sport horse breeding so no surprise that his young competition horses jump but i wouldnt expect a commercial breeder to find him a stand out choice of stallion as there as so much choice out there available.
I wouldnt use any old TB stallion to breed an eventer either it would have to have certain key bloodlines that are prolific in eventers and showjumpers so im not being anti arab.
As ive said i spent 11 1/2 years on a yard where arabs where raced ,showed ,hunted and competed and there is a massive differance in abaility even with the ones that are from performance lines.
Yes there is much arab in WB breeding but like the TB blood they are often very specific lines with proven performance ability.
Just to add that i would use unproven stallion if it was something like Jackeroo who is on my shortlist and never been ridden but full brother to 2 olympic horses and also Shirleys young stallions as you know that Brendon assess and castrate if they dont believe that the colts will go on .

Very well said Sally.

 

[eventrider23]

End of the day the proof will be in the pudding. No one is forcing anyone to use anyone they don't want to. If these foals amount to something fab....if not then it was their breeders gamble...alas the biggest part of all breeding.

Incidentally though it has always been stated by his owner that he was indeed started under saddle, was schooling and jumping in fact and being prepped for sport horse gradings....till an injury curtailed this. No different to many other horses. At least he had the prolific in hand career he had beforehand as well and his progeny are certainly following in his foorsteps. Just today i saw some pictures of his son Mobago I believe it was who has possibly been the closest to his sire as a show horse and is the definition of 'lit up' in a show atmosphere. These photos though were of him ridden...with in hand show ones as comparison. The in hand show horse was working the atmosphere as he should do and looking every part the boy he is whilst the ridden ones showed a lovely calm, quiet youngster with a very relaxed and attentive expression on his face. That alone further demonstrates his trainability and ability to switch that 'sparkle' on and off.

Anyway as said before it is horses for courses and each to their own IMO.

 

[christine48]

I certainly wouldnt rule decanter out as just being a dressage sire ,i have seen a very smart eventer by him (just cant remember whats its called ).
And didnt Dimaggio sire a Burghley young event horse winner to

Also On Q For Gold, eventer by Dimaggio, completed Pau 4* last year.

 

[HBM1]

Really though if it always came down to using a great sire line with a great dam line, every youngster would be a superstar. They aren't so there is still a hell of a lot of luck involved. There will always be stars who come from no real proven line at all (after all, they all have to start somewhere), and those who should perform who just can't.

 

[emlybob]

I don't really like Arabs but I saw him at addington and thought he was stunning. He has great presence and showmanship. Remember he as shown in a tiny thin halter which had to show how easy he is to deal with. How many of us would dare take our stallions to a show in just that????

 

[sallyf]

End of the day the proof will be in the pudding. No one is forcing anyone to use anyone they don't want to. If these foals amount to something fab....if not then it was their breeders gamble...alas the biggest part of all breeding.

Incidentally though it has always been stated by his owner that he was indeed started under saddle, was schooling and jumping in fact and being prepped for sport horse gradings....till an injury curtailed this. No different to many other horses. At least he had the prolific in hand career he had beforehand as well and his progeny are certainly following in his foorsteps. Just today i saw some pictures of his son Mobago I believe it was who has possibly been the closest to his sire as a show horse and is the definition of 'lit up' in a show atmosphere. These photos though were of him ridden...with in hand show ones as comparison. The in hand show horse was working the atmosphere as he should do and looking every part the boy he is whilst the ridden ones showed a lovely calm, quiet youngster with a very relaxed and attentive expression on his face. That alone further demonstrates his trainability and ability to switch that 'sparkle' on and off.

Anyway as said before it is horses for courses and each to their own IMO.

He was presented for grading with SPSS and as far as i'm aware despite scoring highly for conformation ,movement etc he failed on temperament under saddle.
Also as far as im aware the injury he sustained is not a career threatening one and never stopped him covering that season.
My own stallion covered after his injury but that was after 2 years of rehab

 

[eventrider23]

The injury he had obelise was to his sternum right in the area he is girthed up and I believe a hard area to diagnose. I believe he was continue working after it happened without realising and was not behaving (so possibly around same time as SPSS) and tried to work through it till thy had it investigated further to see if there was an underlying cause and found that he had if not actually cracked his sternum then not far off. His owner has always been up front and open about this as with everything about him ad has said that yes he is healed but it is now a memory issue of the pain he was in when they contInued trying to work him before discovering the injury. This is not an uncommon thing with intelligent horses after all.

Sally please, if you really have such an issue with him then take it up with his owner as I am sure she will answer all your questions. No one is forcing you to use him whatsoever or forcing anyone else either. You know I love your boy May but he is no different to Tobago in terms of ridden performance when it comes down to it but people have still used him and his progeny are now more than speaking for themselves. Tobago's eldest are only now coming under saddle and those are pure breds so can we not just allow them the time to prove or disprove themselves under saddle? The sport progeny will follow in due course. There are after all too many to list sires that never did anything under saddle as many have now said and many that didn't start ridden work till much much older which will hopefully be the case here but if not his progeny are what matters at the end of the day. So can they not have the chance to speak for him? So far they are certainly impressing people with people happy to take to chance on using him including the likes now of Future Sport Horses, Janet George and Roy Haggerty so their must be something going for him. Just cause he might not be one persons cup of tea doesn't mean no one else should like him after all does it. If they are all making a mistake then more fool them but it is their mistake to make or not. I know that knowing everyone's opinions certainly won't stop me from using him.

 

[eventrider23]

As Shirley said earlier....it'd be boring if we all liked the same things!

 

[sallyf]

As Shirley said earlier....it'd be boring if we all liked the same things!

Absolutely and as i have said above i believe he does have things to offer to parts of the sport horse industry so its not like i dislike him but there are facts out there and if it was another stallion people would be very happy to show that it was either ungraded or failed a grading.
No reason to protect this horse any more than any other.
People are being very over sensitive about the facts.

 

[eventrider23]

It's not a case of being sensitive but more that it is a constant recycling of the same thing whenever the subject of Tobago comes up and despite his owner and others rehashing it it is always the same things from the same people. End of the day his owner has been up front about everything and so it shouldn't be this constant rehash especially when it is the same people bringing up the points against him when they know the story full well as I know you and I have had this same conversation privately Sally.

 

[eventrider23]

Can we now though allow the thread to go back tothe subject which was SSGB as a whole and not focus on one stallions soo concentratedly please,

 

[JanetGeorge]

So far they are certainly impressing people with people happy to take to chance on using him including the likes now of Future Sport Horses, Janet George and Roy Haggerty so their must be something going for him. Just cause he might not be one persons cup of tea doesn't mean no one else should like him after all does it. If they are all making a mistake then more fool them but it is their mistake to make or not. I know that knowing everyone's opinions certainly won't stop me from using him.

Well said eventrider23! This stallion was a BIG departure for me - I'd never thought of using an Arab on my SH mares until I saw HIM! It was a combination of his overall look, his presence and his movement that made me go WOW! So I started doing some research thinking I'd see something or find something out that would change my mind. And his owner was TOTALLY upfront and honest about him!

If I was 'right' or if I was 'wrong', hopefully I'll soon have the evidence in my fields. And having had a breed inspector tell me I should geld my outcross ID colt because of his 'temperament' - and having chosen to ignore that advice because it was based on an hour's observation on one day whereas I had known him since the day he was born - I certainly wasn't concerned about his 'rideability'. I've seen far too many horses that have been 'difficult' to ride who were actually absolutely fine once the vets, physio etc. had done their bit - and the few that continued to be a bit 'difficult' were certainy suffering 'remembered pain' issues that just needed more time and patience to overcome.

 

[Maesfen]

Really though if it always came down to using a great sire line with a great dam line, every youngster would be a superstar. They aren't so there is still a hell of a lot of luck involved. There will always be stars who come from no real proven line at all (after all, they all have to start somewhere), and those who should perform who just can't.

Well we're very pleased with the fruits of the ungraded One More Tiger and the then ungraded but since Head Stud Book Witches Broom. MF Tawny Tiger, AKA Kitty, just five and thoroughly enjoying her work. So I could have a decent bench mark for my Tobago colt out of the same dam,

 

[rebeccag]

Sorry...bit late to this but thought I would weigh in on the Arab debate so I hope you don't mind. My family have been breeding Arabs and crosses since the 30s so I'm biased but I do think they get a bit of a bad rap. All breeds can be tricky but a good Arab can add a lot. Our veteran stallion Sisyrinchium who was shown both in hand and under saddle very successfully has had a lot of very nice Sports Horse progeny quite a few of which are currently competing. Our view is that the Arab can add lightness of movement and stamina. And in terms of jumping we have often had keen purebred jumpers-in fact Jessica Phoenix who was on the Canadian Olympic eventing team is competing a horse that we bred out of one of our purebred mares who was an incredible jumper.

 

[htobago]

Sorry - I hadn't seen this thread, but as eventrider, JanetGeorge, Shirley, Maesfen, cloppy and many others have already explained about Tobago's injury and much else, there is little for me to add. Except to thank all these breeders very much for their comments - and to thank many of them for using my boy on their excellent sport-horse mares!

I do understand why people might question this - he is an in-hand show-Arab, unproven under saddle, so not perhaps the most obvious choice for breeding sport horses. But the breeders who are using him for this purpose - including, as eventrider pointed out, a number of very well known and highly respected sport-horse breeders - have seen him, studied his offspring, seen their Futurity results, show records, etc. These are not people who take these decisions lightly, or whose heads are easily turned by a pretty, flashy Arab.

So although I am just a novice newcomer in the sport-breeding world, I do respect their judgement. They have explained to me their many reasons for choosing him, but I can't repeat these without sounding braggy, and I don't want to get banned!

I also don't want to get into trouble for posting photos, but as a couple of people have expressed concern that they have not seen any of him under saddle, I hope it is OK to suggest having a look at his Facebook page ('H Tobago'), where I have posted a pre-injury photo of him working nicely under saddle, and also a couple of photos of one of his 4yo pure-bred sons (another show stallion) working quietly on the lunge and under saddle.

As others have already kindly said, I have always been completely upfront about Tobago. I have never claimed that he is a quiet, laid-back stallion. He is lively and playful and high-spirited. But there is no nastiness in him - he is a sweet, very affectionate horse. So are all his offspring. As Pat Adams and others have said, they are sparky and bright, but very friendly, good-natured and trainable.

Believe me, we ALL hope that Tobago will be able to get over the 'remembered pain' problem and resume his ridden training. But I am already wracked with guilt that it took us so long to realise he was in pain, and I am not about to take any unnecessary risks with his physical or mental health just to prove a point. His oldest offspring are being started and will be out representing him under saddle soon.

Again, I really do understand why some people might find him an unusual choice for sport-breeding. And of course I get that he's not everyone's cup of tea. I'm very grateful that so many experienced and respected breeders are using him on their very best mares, but I realise that not everyone shares their high opinion of him. Or that some are reserving judgement until they see his offspring out competing under saddle. And that's fine.

 

[htobago]

Sorry...bit late to this but thought I would weigh in on the Arab debate so I hope you don't mind. My family have been breeding Arabs and crosses since the 30s so I'm biased but I do think they get a bit of a bad rap. All breeds can be tricky but a good Arab can add a lot. Our veteran stallion Sisyrinchium who was shown both in hand and under saddle very successfully has had a lot of very nice Sports Horse progeny quite a few of which are currently competing. Our view is that the Arab can add lightness of movement and stamina. And in terms of jumping we have often had keen purebred jumpers-in fact Jessica Phoenix who was on the Canadian Olympic eventing team is competing a horse that we bred out of one of our purebred mares who was an incredible jumper.

Wow - if your family is Biddesden Stud, you know more about breeding top-class performance Arabs, Anglos and Part-breds than pretty much anyone on the planet, and we are honoured to have you here!

 

[maestro]

I really do not see this as an Arab debate they are a superb breed and must always be upheld as any pure breed should. I see no one actually doubting Tobago as a type, he is clearly a beautiful horse and has had his problems to delay us seeing under saddle and that it is always a concern using any unproven stallion. The fact that he failed a grading because of his unridability means that until his stock are out there being ridden and proving it was the injury causing his problems it is going to put some people off and that is the sort of information good or bad that is asked for on these forums.
I myself have been trying to breed eventers for 25 years and have found it hard to keep the jump in a line and easy to lose so would reserve judjment on such a Stallion until proved otherwise, thus taking a chance they are priced out of my range. Thats not to say I havent used young sires or any with Arab in them (Inschallah is littered in my bloodlines)its just as Sally and Christine have said they do have to come from Jump/ridability lines.

 

[rebeccag]

@HTobago thank you vey much!

 

[Bearskin]

Well we're very pleased with the fruits of the ungraded One More Tiger and the then ungraded but since Head Stud Book Witches Broom. MF Tawny Tiger, AKA Kitty, just five and thoroughly enjoying her work. So I could have a decent bench mark for my Tobago colt out of the same dam,

Lovely photo and Tiger is on my shortlist this year. Did anyone see him at SSGB? I was unable to attend and would be interested in people's thoughts on what they saw that day.

 

[magic104]

I think it is best to agree to disagree. I would prefer to use a stallion who has shown himself under saddle as it is a different ball game to being handled from the ground. I would prefer horses were not started before they were 3 on top of that to see them being worked in sitting trot goes against everything I was every taught. It also goes against most research into wear & tear on young horses both physically & mentally. I would also prefer it is a horse actually used himself when ridden. A nice stamp of horse who then looked to be on the forehand & making little use of his very substantial back end. I would prefer it is people could have an opinion outside of the pack without being jumped on. There is no point in us all going with the flow, it would be so boring, but is the reason I don't venture on here much. Why are people not permitted to question against the crowd, especially when they are not trying to cause trouble?

Loved the ID boys they were super. Loved Arco & his boys. My companions fell for Clinton big time!! The whole thing was well run & it is only in it's 3rd year. Offspring loved the chocolate cake. Everyone we spoke to were just so nice. Loved Dane Rawllins masterclass. In fact loved my 2 days.

 

[maestro]

I think it is best to agree to disagree. I would prefer to use a stallion who has shown himself under saddle as it is a different ball game to being handled from the ground. I would prefer horses were not started before they were 3 on top of that to see them being worked in sitting trot goes against everything I was every taught. It also goes against most research into wear & tear on young horses both physically & mentally. I would also prefer it is a horse actually used himself when ridden. A nice stamp of horse who then looked to be on the forehand & making little use of his very substantial back end. I would prefer it is people could have an opinion outside of the pack without being jumped on. There is no point in us all going with the flow, it would be so boring, but is the reason I don't venture on here much. Why are people not permitted to question against the crowd, especially when they are not trying to cause trouble?

Loved the ID boys they were super. Loved Arco & his boys. My companions fell for Clinton big time!! The whole thing was well run & it is only in it's 3rd year. Offspring loved the chocolate cake. Everyone we spoke to were just so nice. Loved Dane Rawllins masterclass. In fact loved my 2 days.

"LIKE"

 

[Maesfen]

Lovely photo and Tiger is on my shortlist this year. Did anyone see him at SSGB? I was unable to attend and would be interested in people's thoughts on what they saw that day.

Thank you, can't take the credit for that but do have full permission to use it! Sadly I didn't go but have you seen these from that day? http://grahamgannonphotography.zenfolio.com/p167120373

 

[christine48]

Lovely photo and Tiger is on my shortlist this year. Did anyone see him at SSGB? I was unable to attend and would be interested in people's thoughts on what they saw that day.

I wouldn't use a stallion that had failed two gradings and again is un proven. In my opinion he looked a little heavy and lacked athleticism. We thought he looked un level behind too.

 

[TheMule]

I wouldn't use a stallion that had failed two gradings and again is un proven. In my opinion he looked a little heavy and lacked athleticism. We thought he looked un level behind too.

Kitty, the mare Maesfen posted about, is one of the most athletic horses I have ridden and yes, i've ridden some good horses! She is so loose and easy in her movement and jump, everything is easy to her but she tries so hard to please as well.
I'm nothing to do with the stallion and he wouldn't suit my mare but he is proving himself through his offspring- hopefully Kitty will get out eventing later this year and put some results out there for him

 

[chrissie1]

I didn't see OMT ridden. But like christine48 a stallion that has failed Grading/s would be a big deterrent to me. One that hadn't been presented would allow me to make my own mind up. Failing is a different thing altogether.

That isn't to say that whichever stallion we may discuss wouldn't throw sound stock that are achievers.

 

[christine48]

That may be so, don't forget the mare will have had a lot of influence. I just think in the current market where breeders are struggling to sell and horses are going for we'll below their market value we have a responsibility to uphold. At least if a mare and stallion have been assessed and approved by a knowledgable panel it increases the chance of breeding soundness and trainability.
I think we are all aware that there are too many horses being bred at the moment and we should strive to breed from approved, graded or performance mares and stallions.

 

[eventrider23]

Loved the ID boys they were super. Loved Arco & his boys. My companions fell for Clinton big time!! The whole thing was well run & it is only in it's 3rd year. Offspring loved the chocolate cake. Everyone we spoke to were just so nice. Loved Dane Rawllins masterclass. In fact loved my 2 days.

Magic - Clinton??? Who was that?

 

[htobago]

Just a little note on the Arab debate - I have said this many times before (on the previous occasions when we've had the exact same discussion about Tobago ) but for those who only want to use stallions that are proven under saddle, there is a choice of very good Arabs and Anglos.

Too many to name them all (and that's what Google is for) but the Biddesden stallions, obviously, and Avonbrook on here has the super Marcus Aurelius: NaStA performance-tested, AHS Premium Stallion, 4th at HOYS, now advanced endurance... He was at the Hartpury stallion parade and looking splendid.

 

[shirleyno2]

I had a very good stallion get spun at his first grading!!
I also had one get spun with one studbook, passed with another!!
And I'm sure we can all name Olympic and Grand Prix stallions that have been spun by the biggest of European Studbooks as a young horse and then grade when older, and hey presto suddenly they are graded with several studbooks - without progeny out there winning yet!!!!!
Gradings - like buying a lottery ticket! That said I agree that on the whole we should stick to graded stallions but judge every stallion as an individual / on individual circumstances.
Thought OMT looked a super sort but I missed him showcase!
Magic - - defo not Clinton!!