Stallion Showcase GB

emlybob

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To me, I didnt like the way theat OMT's rider had to kick him every stride round the arena. To me the horse lacked quality and movement, so not for me but everyone is after something different. I knew him as a young horse and very much disliked his attitude to work then, and to see him so many years on, nothing has changed. And the fact that he has failed gradings makes me question his quality even more.

On the other hand his sire Java Tiger was one of the most phenomenal and influential TB stallions in the sports horse industry. OMT'S is nothing at all like his father but with Java tigers influence maybe can skip a generation.

Sadly I liked nothing about the horse, but many people thought he looked fantastic. I breed for dressage so would be looking for a different thing.

I thought Archie was fantastic as always. Solaris Amoureux another super stallion. Decanter really can move and is exceptionally well gained so all credit goes to his rider.

The Woodlander stallions all super, the question of whether the 2 and 1/2 year olds should have been presented under saddle is another story!!

I am sure I will get left on for my comments but again, only my opinion
 

woodlander

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I think that it could be significant that it's a first post from this contributor, which points to a wind-up. Agree with you floradora, sad and silly, and inaccurate.

Actually it was a fabulous weekend, the best SSGB yet, and feedback from Lynne Crowden underlines what a friendly and welcoming atmosphere there was at this event, not to speak of many fantastic stallions. The sight of the great Arko with his two stallion sons all together in the arena was memorable, as were the John Whitaker demo and Dane Rawlins masterclass. The exciting thing about the two days is how many very impressive young stallions are beginning to come through now, not least the Woodlander boys, and Brendon Stud's hugely impressive Clintissimo stallion, to mention just a few. It was also so good to see the two RID stallions and stunning pony stallions at the event, underlining the variety of talent that we have in the UK. I'm looking forward to 2014 already, and may the two stallion shows that are really getting established at Hartpury and Addington go from strength to strength without being criticised and carped at. Its time that we all worked together to promote the talent that we have in this country, and stopped allowing a few divisive voices to damage that unity.

Thank you No No Nanette.....Can I refer our critics to a really sensible thread on the BD Group facebook page where we all shared balanced and useful opinions about the riding of young horses and, in particular, stallions. We do not need blindly to pursue the European model or to sacrifice our horses on the alter of early pressure. I would ask however that those of you who feel so strongly about the riding of rising three year olds take on board that every horse is different and that judgement is at the heart of things.

There are over 80 Woodlander prefixed horses that we bred or produced who have performed to a good age with BD and all have been started in the same way....one that suits their maturity both physical and mental. There are many Woodlander horses well into double digits some having gone to GP and Inter II and they too were started in the same way. The same method produced Farouche, Wavavoom, Dornroeschen, Rockstar, Markies,to name but a few. Stallions are in the top 1% of their breed and are, mostly, stronger built but those with more thoroughbred or trakehner take more time to mature sometimes.

I was very proud of our babies who, like many horses I have taken hunting in the past, were more excitable the second time they went out than they were the first. I would not do anything different in the future and I would welcome anyone who wished to visit the stud and see how we work first hand.
 

Truly

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I do believe some horses are mentally more capable in coping with being backed at a younger age than others and also that some are more mature muscularly than others ...however research shows that all breeds of horses (give or take a few months) fuse their growth plates at approximately the same time...starting from the ground upwards and finishing at the poll.

Here is a chart showing the age of growth plate fusion which I googled.
http://www.naturalhorsetraining.com/images/HorseGrowthPlates.jpg
 
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woodlander

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Hi Truly,

Well named. Your google is, I think, right. One of the key and abvious visual signs of whether to start a horse is the "knee" joint when most of the early work with any horse is carried largely on the front legs. "Open" knees are a a real good reason to wait whatever any other agenda.

I believe that the horse is growing up until the age of six and like any young athlete (human too) should not be overfaced or overworked. However, there is also research that has shown that the soft tissue conditioning of a horse is critical before the age of six. If there hasn't been a degree of athleticising by that stage, it is difficult to ask later for more athletic or gymnastic efforts.

We must also recognize that although we expect horses to have a physical life, they are not all athletes and those that are not, forced into work at whatever age, will suffer more.
 

christine48

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Hi Woodlander, your boys were some of the stallions who stood out. However I'd like to see Clapton in a year or twos time as idid think he looked immature.
 

crellow4

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I would like vey much to participate in the discussion on the Face Book page. However this is a closed group and despite sending 2 requests to join I have not been accepted. I've not had an explanation why I'm not deemed suitable to join the page.........
 

no_no_nanette

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I would ask however that those of you who feel so strongly about the riding of rising three year olds take on board that every horse is different and that judgement is at the heart of things.

There are over 80 Woodlander prefixed horses that we bred or produced who have performed to a good age with BD and all have been started in the same way....one that suits their maturity both physical and mental. There are many Woodlander horses well into double digits some having gone to GP and Inter II and they too were started in the same way. The same method produced Farouche, Wavavoom, Dornroeschen, Rockstar, Markies,to name but a few. Stallions are in the top 1% of their breed and are, mostly, stronger built but those with more thoroughbred or trakehner take more time to mature sometimes.

I have a monster three year old who is a case in point! Because of his size and after advice from Jason Webb he went to be very lightly and briefly started as a two year-old, to introduce him to the idea of having a rider on his back. (As Jason said, it might be daunting for any rider to get on to the back of an unbroken 17.3 four year-old for the first time!). At 3 1/2 he has been long-reined out around the farm, and again lightly worked in the school under saddle before being turned away. He will be brought back into work in the spring, but again ridden lightly and carefully, as while I hope he's achieved his full height, he is definitely still putting on substance and bone, so the growing is continuing! There's no way that I would have wanted to have either left him until four, nor worked him continuously from a late two-year-old. My Holstein x TB on the other hand it will probably be appropriate to leave until he's almost four. It's very definitely "horses for courses", and advice from a skilled and experienced producer is sometimes worth its weight in gold.

Anyway, sorry, this has rather taken us off-subject ..... Maybe we need another thread on producing young horses!
 

Holding

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Can I ask what everyone thought about Treliver Decanter? I'm very keen on using him in the future, and so far have only heard good things.
 

no_no_nanette

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Can I ask what everyone thought about Treliver Decanter? I'm very keen on using him in the future, and so far have only heard good things.

I thought that he was even more impressive in person than his photo would suggest. He had really powerful hindleg movement, and was impressive in extended trot, without the front leg movement being over-exaggerated. No real reservations about his paces or conformation. He's a more substantial type than some of the modern dressage horses that seem to be fashionable on the continent, but personally I like that. If I was into dressage and had a suitable mare, he would certainly be on a shortlist!
 

no_no_nanette

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PS Rita, Archie did look fantastic at the SSGB! We are very thrilled with Hattie's first red ribbon at a very young age, evidence that his offspring continue to be an amazing advertisement for him!
 

Yorketown

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I love Decanter!! I have a 2 year old by him who I am very pleased with so my mare is going back to him this year. So far my boy has shown a nice calm temperament and seems to cotton on very quickly to what is being asked of him (he’s only 2 so we are just talking about basic leading and handling etiquette)! The only thing is that he does not look very big at the moment but my mare is only 15h and it was her first foal. All the other Decanter offspring I have seen locally are a lot bigger!!
 

christine48

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And were you surprised?? He IS a 3 year old and not TOO many of them look 'mature' (unless they've been stuffed to the gills and are over-topped! :rolleyes:)

No I wasn't surprised, he looked very weak compared with the other 3 yr old who I believe is a few months older. As I say I would love to see what he matures into.
 

magic104

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To me, I didnt like the way theat OMT's rider had to kick him every stride round the arena. To me the horse lacked quality and movement, so not for me but everyone is after something different. I knew him as a young horse and very much disliked his attitude to work then, and to see him so many years on, nothing has changed. And the fact that he has failed gradings makes me question his quality even more.

And that is exactly what I witnessed. A horse with a great engine, but just ploughed his way round the arena. His rider looked to be trying her best to hold him up. It was made worse because he was being shown on the dressage day. Sorry those of you that failed to notice it, but he did not work through correctly.
 

AdorableAlice

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I would like to thank everyone who has complimented Archie , I am thrilled that he pleased again, it makes all the hard work well worth while. Rita x

Your fabulous stallion pleases me and many others who have his stock on the ground, every day. Long may his success continue and long may his off spring make you, as his owner, breeder and producer very proud.
 

magic104

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Ah well magic having seen how besotted your daughter was with him there I'm not surprised she is in love lol!

Oh tell me about it. All I have had is please can we use him, they would have such a lovely baby! Told her to save her pennies it will be cheaper to buy a foal. Then you get, yes but it won't be his & Flick's foal. I have to wonder sometimes if she remembers she is a grown-up, it feels like I am dealing with a young teen.
 

magic104

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I would like to thank everyone who has complimented Archie , I am thrilled that he pleased again, it makes all the hard work well worth while. Rita x

As I said both your's & Rebel were just super to watch & a real promotion for the ID. My daughter & cousin's daughter were very impressed (as was I) with his son. Shows why the ID x TB has remained popular for so many years.
 

magic104

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I do believe some horses are mentally more capable in coping with being backed at a younger age than others and also that some are more mature muscularly than others ...however research shows that all breeds of horses (give or take a few months) fuse their growth plates at approximately the same time...starting from the ground upwards and finishing at the poll.

Here is a chart showing the age of growth plate fusion which I googled.
http://www.naturalhorsetraining.com/images/HorseGrowthPlates.jpg

I think there is a difference to being backed & doing a display in sitting trot & even being asked for flying changes. IMHO the 1st one did not look a big mature sort either, he looked like the baby he is. As I said it goes against everything I was ever taught. They have enough years under saddle what harm is there in giving them those extra few months to grow into themselves both mentally & physically? I can just imagine the up roar if we started sending 13 year olds out to work!
 

woodlander

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Hi Magic,
I hesitate to comment as everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't know which breed of horses you work with as I don't know who you are.

I would say, categorically, that at no time was any horse asked for a change. Debonair is very balanced and clearly preferred to change his leg and then our rider, with her experience chose to follow his change of direction.I would also add that supple sitting trot practiced for about and one minute or so of trot is not a big deal and gave the youngster more confidence that the rising trot when he was so green.

I have never and would never dream of posting on any forum something which was only designed to detract and even when offered the opportunity and the cause I have avoided this. Why is it not better to say which stallions you liked, and why, and not enter into criticism, insults and offence to some really legendary jumping and event horses.

I am not accusing you of this merely making a very general comment.
 

Maesfen

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I have never and would never dream of posting on any forum something which was only designed to detract and even when offered the opportunity and the cause I have avoided this. Why is it not better to say which stallions you liked, and why, and not enter into criticism, insults and offence to some really legendary jumping and event horses.

I am not accusing you of this merely making a very general comment.

I think this is a valid comment for everyone TBH no matter which forum they're on. If you can't be polite or positive, say nothing at all. If they want to slag something/one off then do it privately and not on a public forum which could affect the businesses and reputation of those 'offended against'. It's easy and polite enough to say it's not their cup of tea if asked but to downright publicly criticise on a forum about a stallion is nasty and leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. I'm not worried about what you say in actual private conversation to anyone, just keep a decent moral code when on a forum.
 

no_no_nanette

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I think this is a valid comment for everyone TBH no matter which forum they're on. If you can't be polite or positive, say nothing at all. If they want to slag something/one off then do it privately and not on a public forum which could affect the businesses and reputation of those 'offended against'. It's easy and polite enough to say it's not their cup of tea if asked but to downright publicly criticise on a forum about a stallion is nasty and leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. I'm not worried about what you say in actual private conversation to anyone, just keep a decent moral code when on a forum.

*Like*
 

Sportznight

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I think this is a valid comment for everyone TBH no matter which forum they're on. If you can't be polite or positive, say nothing at all. If they want to slag something/one off then do it privately and not on a public forum which could affect the businesses and reputation of those 'offended against'. It's easy and polite enough to say it's not their cup of tea if asked but to downright publicly criticise on a forum about a stallion is nasty and leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. I'm not worried about what you say in actual private conversation to anyone, just keep a decent moral code when on a forum.

^^^ This!!
 

Fahrenheit

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I think this is a valid comment for everyone TBH no matter which forum they're on. If you can't be polite or positive, say nothing at all. If they want to slag something/one off then do it privately and not on a public forum which could affect the businesses and reputation of those 'offended against'. It's easy and polite enough to say it's not their cup of tea if asked but to downright publicly criticise on a forum about a stallion is nasty and leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. I'm not worried about what you say in actual private conversation to anyone, just keep a decent moral code when on a forum.

*like*
 

woodlander

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Yep..we are mostly decent people who get sucked into this protocol of criticism. Let's be positive...british breeding needs this. We have the best riders in the world who have blended the best of the continental approach (horses and training) with something special from the UK. Let's do the same with breeding.
 

Truly

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I think this is a valid comment for everyone TBH no matter which forum they're on. If you can't be polite or positive, say nothing at all. If they want to slag something/one off then do it privately and not on a public forum which could affect the businesses and reputation of those 'offended against'. It's easy and polite enough to say it's not their cup of tea if asked but to downright publicly criticise on a forum about a stallion is nasty and leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. I'm not worried about what you say in actual private conversation to anyone, just keep a decent moral code when on a forum.

*Big Like*
 
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