Struggling with hacking

[AmyMay]

Assessed for what may I ask? He only acts this way when hacking, If you mean getting his back checked etc I have done all that he is fine, saddle fits perfect got that adjusted, he is not in pain in any way although he is a bit tense in some areas, teeth have been checked and all fine, thanks Mimi x

Assessed by your instructor to see if it’s just plain old naught napping.

 

[emiliaa]

How disheartening. Well at least he isn't completely trying to get you off. I know you said he schools and jumps well so you'd think no issues with tack, teeth, back etc... but horses don't have the brain capacity to actively plan to be naughty so you have to rule that out. There is something else going on - pain or fear. Some horses will stoically march on but thresholds are different for each horse.

Whatever it is, def get someone to investigate. It could be anything from hoof issues to sacroiliac pain to neurological to completely farcical. We had a mare that napped with us. Never got to the bottom of it so we just didn't hack her. Did everything else perfectly, it was just her achilles heel. Then, went to a new home and hacks no problem...... horses, eh?

I will have these investigated thanks! Although do you not think that it might not be freshness or the fact I am not letting him eat grass as he always does it when I pull him up, Thanks Mimi X

 

[emiliaa]

Assessed by your instructor to see if it’s just plain old naught napping.

Well both said that he is being naughty X

 

[emiliaa]

She literally said at the beginning of the post -

Hi joosie, I am sorry that you feel that you had to comment that for no reason, I made this thread asking for advice and comments like that are not helpful at all nor was your other one. If you don't think that you are able to help me then please just don't reply. Thanks, Mimi x

 

[AmyMay]

Hi joosie, I am sorry that you feel that you had to comment that for no reason, I made this thread asking for advice and comments like that are not helpful at all nor was your other one. If you don't think that you are able to help me then please just don't reply. Thanks, Mimi x

Umm, joosie’s first post was meant kindly. So not cool Emilia.

 

[emiliaa]

Umm, joosie’s first post was meant kindly. So not cool Emilia.

I am sorry if I read it the wrong way but just commenting "
She literally said at the beginning of the post" really isn't helpful and I found that a bit rude.

 

[tallyho!]

Well both said that he is being naughty X

I'm not sure about "naughty" - that could mean a catalogue of things tbh. Not very helpful of them just to say that. Why they are being "naughty" is what you need to know isn't it. Just saying a horse is being naughty doesn't solve a single thing. You need solid reasons or avenues of investigation.

I will have these investigated thanks! Although do you not think that it might not be freshness or the fact I am not letting him eat grass as he always does it when I pull him up, Thanks Mimi X

Hmmm.... he ALWAYS DOES IT WHEN I PULL HIM UP.... how do you pull him up? What bit are you riding him in when you pull him up? Is there something that might hurt him when you do that, that could trigger this behaviour?

 

[joosie]

Hi joosie, I am sorry that you feel that you had to comment that for no reason, I made this thread asking for advice and comments like that are not helpful at all nor was your other one. If you don't think that you are able to help me then please just don't reply. Thanks, Mimi x

Excuse me? I didn't mean to be rude, I was just pointing out that the answer was already there, and quoted it again to clarify what amymay had said that you had missed! I'm not sure why you think my first post wasn't helpful? - my advice was to get someone else to ride the horse who has the experience to deal with the behaviour. I'm not sure why you're singling my post out since other people have said the same thing? I also don't see why expressing concern about a teenager getting injured is a bad thing? Or was it just "not helpful" because I upset you by insinuating you didn't have the experience to sort it on your own? (Which I genuinely don't believe you do, and that's not meant to be a criticism)

 

[emiliaa]

I'm not sure about "naughty" - that could mean a catalogue of things tbh. Not very helpful of them just to say that. Why they are being "naughty" is what you need to know isn't it. Just saying a horse is being naughty doesn't solve a single thing. You need solid reasons or avenues of investigation.



Hmmm.... he ALWAYS DOES IT WHEN I PULL HIM UP.... how do you pull him up? What bit are you riding him in when you pull him up? Is there something that might hurt him when you do that, that could trigger this behaviour?

He's in a regular snaffle one of the least harshest bits, I don't see how else I am meant to get him up other than pulling. He gets really strong and will literally dive his head down to eat nothing can stop him. He will refuse to stop eating without me pulling him up really hard and pushing him on which still takes forever, I don't see why there's an issue with pulling him up. I think his behaviour is more like that as I am not letting him eat the grass (which he is quite aggressive about). I would be quite shocked if his bit was harming him. And about the naughty thing, I didn't say that my riding instructors did. Although I do believe it is excitement more than anything else. When I stop him from eating grass in the enclosed field at my livery he just acts himself. Tbh I think the comments on this thread saying that it is because I always let him get away with it are the most true, he knows how to make me go back home and it works everytime so he will keep doing it. I am going to sort this out with the help of my riding instructor, thanks Mimi.

 

[emiliaa]

Excuse me? I didn't mean to be rude, I was just pointing out that the answer was already there, and quoted it again to clarify what amymay had said that you had missed! I'm not sure why you think my first post wasn't helpful? - my advice was to get someone else to ride the horse who has the experience to deal with the behaviour. I'm not sure why you're singling my post out since other people have said the same thing? I also don't see why expressing concern about a teenager getting injured is a bad thing? Or was it just "not helpful" because I upset you by insinuating you didn't have the experience to sort it on your own? (Which I genuinely don't believe you do, and that's not meant to be a criticism)

Okay, sorry if I took it the wrong way I would just like to clarify that I never hack out by myself and if you see the video then you can clearly see that. I am also getting professional help to sort this out as I understand that it is getting dangerous. I must've read it different in my head. Thanks, Mimi X

 

[oldie48]

Naughty for me is just another way of saying using evasions to avoid doing something. I've had a few "schoolmaster" types over the years and most have been quite adept at using evasions. Looking back the one thing in common was that me, as the rider, didn't have proper control. The horse was not in front of the leg, wasn't on the bit and I couldn't have placed his neck/body etc where I wanted. this was true when schooling but so much more the case when hacking. I knew my horses were sound, wearing well fitting tack etc but I was the weak link. If a good trainer can get your horse out hacking safely (may take a few sessions) then so can you but you'll need to up your game and work with someone who will really show you what is required. I struggled with my previous horse out hacking until I got him round and soft and listening in the school, this transformed our relationship. FWIW I think your horse is taking the P, if you hacked him out fine when you tried him, he's basically OK to hack. don't lose heart get a good trainer who will help you work through it. Best wishes.

 

[emiliaa]

Naughty for me is just another way of saying using evasions to avoid doing something. I've had a few "schoolmaster" types over the years and most have been quite adept at using evasions. Looking back the one thing in common was that me, as the rider, didn't have proper control. The horse was not in front of the leg, wasn't on the bit and I couldn't have placed his neck/body etc where I wanted. this was true when schooling but so much more the case when hacking. I knew my horses were sound, wearing well fitting tack etc but I was the weak link. If a good trainer can get your horse out hacking safely (may take a few sessions) then so can you but you'll need to up your game and work with someone who will really show you what is required. I struggled with my previous horse out hacking until I got him round and soft and listening in the school, this transformed our relationship. FWIW I think your horse is taking the P, if you hacked him out fine when you tried him, he's basically OK to hack. don't lose heart get a good trainer who will help you work through it. Best wishes.

Thank you for this, so I should try a different instructor? It is hard for me as I have only been riding about 3 years so I am still learning, as you also said I am struggling with getting him round and soft when schooling so I will work on that. I think he is taking the P too but I just get so scared when he does stuff like what he did in the video!! I found your comment really useful thanks a lot, Mimi x

 

[splashgirl45]

the other thing that might help with the grass eating is an extra rein attached to the front of the saddle , not so short to stop him moving his head normally but short enough so he cant get to the grass so its stops him yanking the rein out of your hands and he should be easier to bring his head up. i do agree that it would be good if your instructor rode him in the same places to see if he does the same to her. it may be that she will read what he is going to do a little quicker than you and can stop him before he gets his head down....also it may be worth looking at what he is being fed as the grass is coming through and he may be feeling a little bit TOO well..good luck

 

[joosie]

Okay, sorry if I took it the wrong way I would just like to clarify that I never hack out by myself and if you see the video then you can clearly see that.

Well, that's good to know Yes I did see the person in the video but assumed it was just someone on a footpath... you didn't actually mention that they were with you But I'm glad you are going out with a foot soldier in case something bad does happen. Alone and unconscious in the middle of a field is not a good place to be, as I have unfortunately found out for myself!

 

[tallyho!]

He's in a regular snaffle one of the least harshest bits, I don't see how else I am meant to get him up other than pulling. He gets really strong and will literally dive his head down to eat nothing can stop him. He will refuse to stop eating without me pulling him up really hard and pushing him on which still takes forever, I don't see why there's an issue with pulling him up. I think his behaviour is more like that as I am not letting him eat the grass (which he is quite aggressive about). I would be quite shocked if his bit was harming him. And about the naughty thing, I didn't say that my riding instructors did. Although I do believe it is excitement more than anything else. When I stop him from eating grass in the enclosed field at my livery he just acts himself. Tbh I think the comments on this thread saying that it is because I always let him get away with it are the most true, he knows how to make me go back home and it works everytime so he will keep doing it. I am going to sort this out with the help of my riding instructor, thanks Mimi.

Absolutely agree the snaffle is a great bit but it does cause pain if you’re pulling in the wrong places or it’s hit a sore spot in the palate or tongue or bars, wolf teeth, painful teeth etc. I’m not suggesting you are hurting him on purpose. I’m just suggesting a potential trigger.

You could try leading away with one rein (supporting other side sonit doesn’t pull through mouth) when he puts his head down. He will have to move his shoulders so hard to eat and move. What about grass reins? Works for ponies. They only act on the corners of the lips. If grass is truly your problem. But like you say, could be other things.

I think you should know that this is a really helpful forum, I know most people here post with the best intentions only. As do I. Just trying to help. Hope you get to bottom of it 😊

 

[emiliaa]

the other thing that might help with the grass eating is an extra rein attached to the front of the saddle , not so short to stop him moving his head normally but short enough so he cant get to the grass so its stops him yanking the rein out of your hands and he should be easier to bring his head up. i do agree that it would be good if your instructor rode him in the same places to see if he does the same to her. it may be that she will read what he is going to do a little quicker than you and can stop him before he gets his head down....also it may be worth looking at what he is being fed as the grass is coming through and he may be feeling a little bit TOO well..good luck

Thanks Splash! My livery yard owner decided to take him off his feed for the moment as he is getting very hyper so he has been on just hay for the past few weeks, that extra rein sounds like a life saver what do I google to order it? (sorry ahah) Also can you use it for jumping too or just hacking and my horse also snatches the reins after jumping Thanks Mimi X

 

[emiliaa]

Well, that's good to know Yes I did see the person in the video but assumed it was just someone on a footpath... you didn't actually mention that they were with you But I'm glad you are going out with a foot soldier in case something bad does happen. Alone and unconscious in the middle of a field is not a good place to be, as I have unfortunately found out for myself!

Yes it's my mum I am really sorry for my past comment I read it out totally different in my head X I'm sure you didn't mean it in a mean way

 

[emiliaa]

Absolutely agree the snaffle is a great bit but it does cause pain if you’re pulling in the wrong places or it’s hit a sore spot in the palate or tongue or bars, wolf teeth, painful teeth etc. I’m not suggesting you are hurting him on purpose. I’m just suggesting a potential trigger.

You could try leading away with one rein (supporting other side sonit doesn’t pull through mouth) when he puts his head down. He will have to move his shoulders so hard to eat and move. What about grass reins? Works for ponies. They only act on the corners of the lips. If grass is truly your problem. But like you say, could be other things.

I think you should know that this is a really helpful forum, I know most people here post with the best intentions only. As do I. Just trying to help. Hope you get to bottom of it 😊

Grass is the main thing that causes all the drama X I hope I am not hurting him he's had the dentist recently and the dentist didn't say anything about that would he not be able to see? And by leading with one rein do you mean just getting him up holding the rein with both hands (if you get what I mean) I will see if I can try grass reins too, thanks Mimi X

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

What you need to ascertain by getting a pro on him is whether the napping is fixable with good positive confident riding, whether there is an underlying issue or whether it’s just not his thing!

It’s not unheard of (and I hate to stereotype, but KWPN comes up a lot!) that horses who have spent the bulk of their riding just don’t hack!

You might have to accept you can’t fit a square peg in a round hole.

^^^ This. Almost exactly what I was just gonna say!!

I actually think that this horse is probably extremely talented, awkward b'ggers like this normally are!! BUT whether he will ever get his head around hacking out on his own.......... one has to ask that question whether it can ever be achieveable TBH. I got my old boy (cob) out hacking solo, through the help of a professional, but he wasn't a highly powered WB! These types have spent most of their riding time in the arena and/or being prepped for competition work, and they just don't know how to handle going out hacking on their own.

Like someone else has said, my concern is for the young rider in this situation; this is a big strong powerful (and no doubt very scopey) horse - and by god he knows his own strength and doesn't hesitate to voice his opinion!! But he would probably do an excellent ODE and come home with a ribbon - because that's what he has been trained to do. You can't expect a horse like that to be a happy hacker!

OP, what I'm going to say to you, you may resent, and protest that you love this horse to bits etc etc., but frankly, I feel you may have over-horsed yourself. You are young, and however "experienced" you may be, this horse is very possibly quite a lot more horse than you have the experience to cope with at the moment. You may, just may, have to accept this fact, and that it may be time to pass him on to someone who has the ability, facilities, time, and experience, to work on him as a "project" and bring him on.

So sorry if that isn't what you want to hear, but I (and others on here, obviously) frankly fear for your safety if you persist with this horse.

If you want a horse that will hack safely, then buy a horse that will do just that; but frankly, I don't think this horse has the right sort of temperament to be a "happy hacker". What you've got is a very highly powered Performance Horse; but what I think you actually WANT is a horse who will hack out safely without issue and who will bring you back safely again in one piece, and I frankly cannot see the horse you've got is that sort of type, watching the video-clip I could just hear the panic in your voice, and the horse was picking up on that. Happy hackers are actually a very rare commodity - they have to deal with everything they encounter on a hack, and are worth their weight in gold if you get a good'un. My little youngster (who hacked solo through a working quarry as a 4yo) is a case in point. Plus my old boy who "wouldn't hack solo" until I got a sensitive professional to help me with him. It IS possible, yes, to get a horse out solo hacking against all the odds, but after watching that video-clip, albeit short, and sensing the inter-action between you both, I have to say I would have serious doubts about that with this particular horse TBH.

For what its worth, I think you'd be far better (and MUCH safer) with something considerably less high-octane, after all, at the end of the day riding is meant to be fun, and my fear is that the situation will escalate and at some point sooner or later this horse is going to put you in A&E.

 

[AmyMay]

I don’t think Oldie suggested getting a new instructor.

 

[splashgirl45]

grass reins are good for hacking when the horse/pony realises how they can yank the reins and get to the grass but not for jumping as they would restrict him too much. the yanking of the reins when you jump will have to be sorted out when you are having a lesson and your instructor should be able to help you with that....i would keep him just on hay for the moment as long as he is not thin, just so you can get used to him and manage his little naughty moments... if your instructor hacks him out with no problems that should give you more confidence and she can give you tips on what to do.

 

[emiliaa]

^^^ This. Almost exactly what I was just gonna say!!

I actually think that this horse is probably extremely talented, awkward b'ggers like this normally are!! BUT whether he will ever get his head around hacking out on his own.......... one has to ask that question whether it can ever be achieveable TBH.

Like someone else has said, my concern is for the young rider in this situation; this is a big strong powerful (and no doubt very scopey) horse - and by god he knows his own strength and isn't hesitate to voice his opinion!! But he would probably do an excellent ODE and come home with a ribbon.......

OP, what I'm going to say to you, you may resent, and protest that you love this horse to bits etc etc., but frankly, I feel you may have over-horsed yourself. You are young, and however "experienced" you may be, this horse is very possibly quite a lot more horse than you have the experience to cope with at the moment. You may, just may, have to accept this fact, and that it may be time to pass him on to someone who has the ability, facilities, time, and experience, to work on him as a "project" and bring him on.

So sorry if that isn't what you want to hear, but I (and others on here, obviously) frankly fear for your safety if you persist with this horse.

If you want a horse that will hack safely, then buy a horse that will do just that; but frankly, I don't think this horse has the right sort of temperament to be a "happy hacker". It takes a lot........ happy hackers are actually a very rare commodity. But I think you'd be far better with something considerably less high-octane, after all, riding is meant to be fun, and my worry is that sooner or later you are going to be put in a dangerous situation with this horse.

Thank you for your comment, yes my horse is extremely talented strong and powerful. And I wouldn't want him any different. I love him so much and would never sell him. He has brought me from barely getting over cross poles to competing at 95 confidently even though you may not think it. He is one of the safest horses ever (in ANY situation over than hacking) He has changed me so much he lets the little pony club kids ride him bare back he lets people who have never ridden him before bounce on his back and he doesn't give a damn. I am the luckiest girl in the world to have him and I wouldn't swap him for any other horse. Just because hacking is an issue does that make our bond, schooling, shows and everything else an issue? My riding school was really shocked by how good he is when I first got him and were asking how me and my mum found such a versataille horse. My horse is goofy clumsy strong beautiful and kind and I wouldn't want him any other way. The only times he puts me in danger is when hacking. He doesn't deserve to be passed around like a bouncy ball he has done SO MUCH for me, He has taught me everything. Thanks Mimi X

 

[emiliaa]

I don’t think Oldie suggested getting a new instructor.

Did I say that? Or was I just wondering if that would be better?

 

[AmyMay]

I’m out.

 

[emiliaa]

grass reins are good for hacking when the horse/pony realises how they can yank the reins and get to the grass but not for jumping as they would restrict him too much. the yanking of the reins when you jump will have to be sorted out when you are having a lesson and your instructor should be able to help you with that....i would keep him just on hay for the moment as long as he is not thin, just so you can get used to him and manage his little naughty moments... if your instructor hacks him out with no problems that should give you more confidence and she can give you tips on what to do.

Okay thank you! so just for hacking then he is just on hay at the moment now he's not thin at all he is quite tub tub haha thanks Mimi X

 

[emiliaa]

What you need to ascertain by getting a pro on him is whether the napping is fixable with good positive confident riding, whether there is an underlying issue or whether it’s just not his thing!

It’s not unheard of (and I hate to stereotype, but KWPN comes up a lot!) that horses who have spent the bulk of their riding just don’t hack!

You might have to accept you can’t fit a square peg in a round hole.

Sorry I have only just seen this, yes I think I might have to accept that thanks Mimi X

 

[oldie48]

Thank you for this, so I should try a different instructor? It is hard for me as I have only been riding about 3 years so I am still learning, as you also said I am struggling with getting him round and soft when schooling so I will work on that. I think he is taking the P too but I just get so scared when he does stuff like what he did in the video!! I found your comment really useful thanks a lot, Mimi x

no not suggesting a new trainer if your current one will hack the horse out and assess it properly, however, I did have to change trainers from one who helped me "manage" my horse to one that taught me to "control" my horse and there was a huge difference in approach. One was keeping me in a rather helpless position whereas the other moved me on as a rider. I did have to move out of my comfort zone though which was a bit scary at times but I trusted my new trainer completely which really helped.

 

[emiliaa]

no not suggesting a new trainer if your current one will hack the horse out and assess it properly, however, I did have to change trainers from one who helped me "manage" my horse to one that taught me to "control" my horse and there was a huge difference in approach. One was keeping me in a rather helpless position whereas the other moved me on as a rider. I did have to move out of my comfort zone though which was a bit scary at times but I trusted my new trainer completely which really helped.

Alright, thank you so much for your help, Mimi X

 

[emiliaa]

^^^ This. Almost exactly what I was just gonna say!!

I actually think that this horse is probably extremely talented, awkward b'ggers like this normally are!! BUT whether he will ever get his head around hacking out on his own.......... one has to ask that question whether it can ever be achieveable TBH. I got my old boy (cob) out hacking solo, through the help of a professional, but he wasn't a highly powered WB! These types have spent most of their riding time in the arena and/or being prepped for competition work, and they just don't know how to handle going out hacking on their own.

Like someone else has said, my concern is for the young rider in this situation; this is a big strong powerful (and no doubt very scopey) horse - and by god he knows his own strength and doesn't hesitate to voice his opinion!! But he would probably do an excellent ODE and come home with a ribbon - because that's what he has been trained to do. You can't expect a horse like that to be a happy hacker!

OP, what I'm going to say to you, you may resent, and protest that you love this horse to bits etc etc., but frankly, I feel you may have over-horsed yourself. You are young, and however "experienced" you may be, this horse is very possibly quite a lot more horse than you have the experience to cope with at the moment. You may, just may, have to accept this fact, and that it may be time to pass him on to someone who has the ability, facilities, time, and experience, to work on him as a "project" and bring him on.

So sorry if that isn't what you want to hear, but I (and others on here, obviously) frankly fear for your safety if you persist with this horse.

If you want a horse that will hack safely, then buy a horse that will do just that; but frankly, I don't think this horse has the right sort of temperament to be a "happy hacker". What you've got is a very highly powered Performance Horse; but what I think you actually WANT is a horse who will hack out safely without issue and who will bring you back safely again in one piece, and I frankly cannot see the horse you've got is that sort of type, watching the video-clip I could just hear the panic in your voice, and the horse was picking up on that. Happy hackers are actually a very rare commodity - they have to deal with everything they encounter on a hack, and are worth their weight in gold if you get a good'un. My little youngster (who hacked solo through a working quarry as a 4yo) is a case in point. Plus my old boy who "wouldn't hack solo" until I got a sensitive professional to help me with him. It IS possible, yes, to get a horse out solo hacking against all the odds, but after watching that video-clip, albeit short, and sensing the inter-action between you both, I have to say I would have serious doubts about that with this particular horse TBH.

For what its worth, I think you'd be far better (and MUCH safer) with something considerably less high-octane, after all, at the end of the day riding is meant to be fun, and my fear is that the situation will escalate and at some point sooner or later this horse is going to put you in A&E.

This was my first ever show, look how bad my riding is? Is he really that atrocious horse you were describing? Just because I struggle hacking him (which I barely even do) I should sell him as a whole? Not right. I have worked so hard since getting him. He was unfit underweight and he was overjumped at one of those professional places you were talking about (Jumping him 1.30 which he can barely do) which really messed up his back but it is better now. All horses have quirks and hacking is my horses one, I am not just going to sell him because of that.

 

[splashgirl45]

he looks like a good honest jumper, and you may have part of the answer why he is playing up, you said he was unfit ,underweight and overjumped when you got him......you posted asking for help with hacking and that is what we have done, the poster who said you may have to sell only had your best interests at heart as it was sounding like he was getting dangerous out hacking and as you have been riding a short time (compared to many of us) the option of selling was important to point out. its not really good for horses to never hack out and only work in a school so if you can sort this out you can enjoy hacking him out and it will give him a change of scenery and you will gain in confidence...let us know how you get on