ester
Not slacking multitasking
They might have to be pretty fit to carry it though!
Sue dysan - made up expert
- Thread starter Gingerwitch
- Start date
They might have to be pretty fit to carry it though!
Fred66
Well-Known Member
I wonder whether her research has contributed to some equine colleges changing their student entry requirements. One near us has changed their policy such that anyone over 13 stone with tack can no longer ride. The weight limit reduces based on height, so they are informing teenage girls that are 5.8 and over 12 stone with tack that they are too heavy to ride. If they are borderline they have two weeks to lose the weight before they are asked to choose an alternate non riding course. Whilst animal welfare is important the limits they have set are well under the normal accepted guidelines for riding, to my mind this is highly irresponsible and could lead more people into developing eating disorders.
ozpoz
Well-Known Member
Goodness some knee jerk reactions. Being accused of something means just that. Who knows if it is true or false, or whether there is something else that we know nothing about.
As someone who was once falsely accused in a workplace setting it is a terrible experience and in my case took a couple of years, and a police arrest before the truth came out.
Re college weights, 40 years ago this was perfectly normal, as it was in any professional yard. It didn’t result in mass eating disorders and as far as I’m aware, horses haven’t changed.
As someone who was once falsely accused in a workplace setting it is a terrible experience and in my case took a couple of years, and a police arrest before the truth came out.
Re college weights, 40 years ago this was perfectly normal, as it was in any professional yard. It didn’t result in mass eating disorders and as far as I’m aware, horses haven’t changed.
Sossigpoker
Well-Known Member
Her alleged offence won't have affected the outcome of the study. What is alleged is that she forged a letter of support from an official that would allow the study to commence. Before any study involving humans or animals you need to satisfy some ethical criteria, and that's what the allegedly forged letter was for. It won't have had any impact on the findings of the study
windand rain
Well-Known Member
It does affect the trial though as it wasn't cleared by the ethics committee so could be said to be unethical to even try to put a 22 stone rider on an ill fitting saddle on a lighter weight breed of horse. Personally I would have been surprised if it hadn't quickly shown signs of pain.
Bearing in mind this woman also maintains that most ridden horses are lame it is not a good starting point. It also calls into question her other experiments and diagnoses
Bearing in mind this woman also maintains that most ridden horses are lame it is not a good starting point. It also calls into question her other experiments and diagnoses
honetpot
Well-Known Member
Most studies should be peer reviewed before they are published, this is so the methodology and the data is reviewed. If it is true she 'made up' an expert it does call in to question the validity of the source data, my big question would be why?
Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
If you look at my opening post it does say I so hope this is not true.
hollyandivy123
Well-Known Member
I think this is mostly about the fact that this expect said there was no need to apply to the home office to carry out the experiments on the horses. ......This has major implications in breach of the legislation in the UK. ....also is a major issue for the vetinarary arena
maya2008
Well-Known Member
Imagine we were to do this study with humans and weight in a backpack.... now if you were to choose a variety of average height women with a desk job, who perhaps walk the dog for exercise, using an average sized backpack, you would find very different results from if you used a proper backpack designed to carry weight, or if you used men, or men who are muscled to carry weight (e.g. in army training). Even within those groups (excluding the army one!), you get some people who can carry huge amounts (my husband is one, used to carry huge meat carcasses when unloading for the shop), and those who cannot (my friend’s husband or my dad). Musculature has a massive impact, as anyone who does weights or carries for their job will know. My husband no longer carries half a cow regularly and would no longer be able to do so, he has lost a huge amount of muscle and that equates to carrying power. He, at 5ft6, used to be easily able to pick me up as a joke and carry me some distance. I weighed 69% of his body weight at the time! The cow carcasses were even heavier, he used to get skin damage from carrying those.
A proper study would be incredibly valuable, but it would need to be done correctly and in sufficient depth.
A proper study would be incredibly valuable, but it would need to be done correctly and in sufficient depth.
Aperchristmas
Well-Known Member
God that's awful.
TPO
Well-Known Member
Why is having a weight limit as to what horses can carry awful?
There are lots of careers/activities that have height and/or weight restrictions and sometimes that is because of the equipment used.
Obviously I'm not referring to ED; that's a seperate thing completely.
I have no idea about heights/weights so read a few different websites and they all have 13st as overweight for 5ft8 (nhs, BMI and a couple of other random websites supplied by google). Not saying that is correct but that is the information available. Obviously in reality there are different factors like muscle mass.
It's not a discussion about what people weigh or should weigh but what we ask horses to carry. It's about the horses not the people. Even more so if we assume that the majority at an equine college arent experienced and it circles back to the often touted on here about "bad"/unbalanced riders becoming a heavier weight.
There appears to be some trouble separating human body issues/weight/health from what horses should ethically be asked to carry.
We negatively impact them every time we ride. All we can do is try to keep them as fit, strong and supple to negate the effects of what we choose to do with them.
hollyandivy123
Well-Known Member
as the average height of the world population has increased over the last 70 years and in conjunction with this the increase in body weight (not talking obesity here), may be it is time that we consider that we need to breed different style of horse to account for this................................
Roxylola
Well-Known Member
12 stone with tack though, and I'm assuming also therefore including boots and riding wear, so probably more like 10.5 or 11 stone which is a fair bit away from 13 stone really
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately it doesn't really matter how good the study was, not having the correct paper work renders it void. If that is found to be the case then the work will have to be redacted. Journals and funders etc are very hot on this.
I had to have a FCO license to gather samples from Antarctica, it didn't take long to get (about a week), which I have to show proof of in all of my work or it can't be published.
I know of someone who gathered some interesting tardigrades from the Galapagos, they didn't have a license though and so nothing can be published about it.
So I am not sure why she needed to forge a letter (if she did) as it wouldn't have taken that long to get, unless she knew it wouldn't be granted for some reason.
I had to have a FCO license to gather samples from Antarctica, it didn't take long to get (about a week), which I have to show proof of in all of my work or it can't be published.
I know of someone who gathered some interesting tardigrades from the Galapagos, they didn't have a license though and so nothing can be published about it.
So I am not sure why she needed to forge a letter (if she did) as it wouldn't have taken that long to get, unless she knew it wouldn't be granted for some reason.
tristar
Well-Known Member
this is where the 50 per cent or so of horses comp or ridden are lame claim, gives me a warning bell, a very large one, as i keep thinking about it, well, i suppose if you were convinced by someone a horse was in pain you might well follow their advice, as you are paying for it and they are considered to be the expert in their field.
there are so many components in lameness diagnostics, farriery being the first that springs to mind
i have no doubt many horses have been pts over the years because of things simple yet undiscovered issues
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
That's an idiotic rule.
Tack can often weigh a couple of stone - so leaving 11 stone.
And does it mean that if you are 13 stone with tack, you are fine to ride anything from a 13.2hh to a 17.2hh?
It's probably also discriminatory - as many men will be over that weight limit, without being overweight at all. My late father was 6ft tall, and without being overweight weighted 14 stone...
Of course we'll have people bleating on that it's all about horse welfare - but as there's no good weight for a horse's health this is just another sneaky fat-shaming attempt by short to average height female riders.
If we accept that horses should have an upper weight limit, then it needs to be as a proportion to the animal's weight, height and 'bone'.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
And we are back into that subjective definition territory again;
Novice - anyone who rides worse than I do
Expert - anyone who rides better than I do
The right weight - me*
The wrong weight - anyone heavier than me.
*Disclaimer - I don't believe this, I'm resplendent in my lockdown lard.
Novice - anyone who rides worse than I do
Expert - anyone who rides better than I do
The right weight - me*
The wrong weight - anyone heavier than me.
*Disclaimer - I don't believe this, I'm resplendent in my lockdown lard.
tristar
Well-Known Member
perhaps that i where i get these reaction of what??? when someone announces broad sweeping conclusions at that level of expertise, and it sounds as if its not really taking into account all the possibilities ,especially with animals as they have no vocal input
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
This should also be where the peer review system comes into play. I don't know what journal she published in, but they should be looking at whether she could draw the conclusions she did from the data she has got. They should also look at the experimental system and whether it is repeatable etc.
Keira 8888
Well-Known Member
???????????? That last line just made me spit my tea out!!!!!!! Love the word “resplendent” ? I must find a way to use it in conversation myself today......... ?
Aperchristmas
Well-Known Member
Because once you take tack away from 12 or 13 stone, you're left with a lot less, and almost certainly within a healthy weight range. I really don't think telling young women that aren't particularly overweight in the first place that they need to lose weight is a great idea, particularly when those same women probably still weigh significantly less than the 6' bloke on their course. Are we saying that men shouldn't be able to ride? Or are we just fat-shaming women who aren't a size 8? Why are the latter being demonised and the former not?
To be clear, I am not talking about obesity here - I think we would all agree that 22 stone is just too heavy for a horse to carry and it wouldn't be fair to ask them to do so. Once you're above 13/14 stone as a rider, you would definitely need to think even more carefully about the animal you want to ride and whether it is appropriate. But to write off any rider over 12 stone is just bonkers. My issue is that the weight limit quoted above is unnecessarily low and implementing it is likely to cause harm to healthy men and women.
TPO - in your opinion what should horses ethically be asked to carry?
McFluff
Well-Known Member
I do think there is value in studying the impact of carrying weight on a horse - and there is real value in providing evidence based research on the maximum % that a horse can carry without pain/lameness (assuming correct saddle fit, correct horse weight, fit/healthy horse to start with). This sort of information can then help people decide whether a particular horse is right for them, and it helps establishments decide what weight limits they have and why.
I'm not sure that the original study referred to here achieved that - perhaps because it was just a pilot, but it also didn't really seem to control enough of the variables to reach any useful conclusion (and elements are ethically questionable in my opinion). I suspect that the best type of study would be impractical - i.e. a longer term, mass participation study.
However, we do as a society need to get better at discussing weight (human and pet). And I say this as someone who batlles with my weight (with varying success!). The BMI scale has issues (e.g. top athletes and body builders are outliers) but for the majority of the population, it is a useful indicator of healthy weight. At my work, we are having to support more and more children who are obese - very obese - this is not good for the future. We either stop riding altogether or we start to address the issues of weight in society. As an observation, to put the heaviest rider into context, they would need to be well over 6' tall for 22st not to be clinically obese... (so beyond overweight, and beyond obese).
I'm not sure that the original study referred to here achieved that - perhaps because it was just a pilot, but it also didn't really seem to control enough of the variables to reach any useful conclusion (and elements are ethically questionable in my opinion). I suspect that the best type of study would be impractical - i.e. a longer term, mass participation study.
However, we do as a society need to get better at discussing weight (human and pet). And I say this as someone who batlles with my weight (with varying success!). The BMI scale has issues (e.g. top athletes and body builders are outliers) but for the majority of the population, it is a useful indicator of healthy weight. At my work, we are having to support more and more children who are obese - very obese - this is not good for the future. We either stop riding altogether or we start to address the issues of weight in society. As an observation, to put the heaviest rider into context, they would need to be well over 6' tall for 22st not to be clinically obese... (so beyond overweight, and beyond obese).
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
I’m not TPO, but this brings us back full circle to the study that Sue Dyson carried out. It may well have been flawed, probably it was seriously flawed, but it was looking into rider weights.
I have weighed all my tack and riding clothing and equipment, and it added 2.5 stone to my nekked weight. Dressed in summer gear as per in my avatar pic. That was a shock.
At 5’10” tall and with a rugby player type muscly build I am never going to be a size 8, but I can consider what type of horse should be expected to carry me.
ETA I can do 11 stone 2lbs at a push. That puts me just over the mid point of the NHS ‘healthy‘ weight range. At that weight, my ribs and vertebrae protrude out and my boobs shrink to a AA cup size
. I’ll still be 13 stone 9lbs on the horse inc tack, though.
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TPO
Well-Known Member
I was pretty much going to reply this but TP beat me to it.
I dont have an exact answer as horses have different capacities. The upper limit for a fine 15.2hh TB will be different from a cob type 15.2hh that is fit and has substantial bone.
That is why I think there is a need for a (proper/approved/legal) study into the impact of rider weights.
Generally speaking I think once you're into the 16-17st bracket it's in the too heavy territory for even bigger animals with more bone.That's in general because I'm sure someone will reply about a tank of a 17hh who could hunt all day carrying 25st with no detrimental effects at all ?
There are other factors regarding weight as a highland can carry the dead weight of a stag with relative ease but I personally wouldn't think it acceptable for an 18st rider to ride the same height/build of highland.
Then there are people with their "solid weight carrying" horses when the horses are actually overweight and therefore should be carrying less rider weight. Their carrying abilities should be calculated against their fit/healthy weight. Just because a fat cob weighs 700kgs it doesnt mean it can take a 20% rider (if that's the chosen method to work out capacity).
I dont know how some posters are so happy to dismiss the animal welfare to blast on about fat shaming instead.
Even if you want to use the examples getting banded about of fit, tall men who are heavy why should anyone have a right to ride if it is detrimental* to the animal?
If someone is too heavy they are too heavy. It's a suspension bridge structure, that isnt designed to carry weight, that you are loading onto.
I appreciate the difficulty is classifying what too heavy actually is for bone/height/build/weight of all the different types and breeds of horse.
I don't understand the denial and reluctance to address the issue of people being too heavy to be on a horses back.
No where has it been said that to ride a horse you need to be 5ft4 and 8st. As demonstrated above the upper weights are unhealthy weights for people to actually be never mind the horse carrying it.
No one has been able to answer about the saddle fitting issues for larger people and I'd imagine because at a certain point it's impossible. The Very Heavy rider in the SD study isnt a rare sight. It's not about shaming anyone for being X weight but it is about considering the horse?
I honestly couldn't care less what weight anyone is but it does concern me when I see horses with too heavy [for them] riders who also dont fit in the saddle.
pedilia
Well-Known Member
Not sure where you have got this information from, my horses was one of the horses that took part and that is simply not the case, all horses had a saddle check by a qualified saddle fitter and a lameness check, many horses were discounted prior to the study for lameness
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Thanks for joining the thread, pedilia,
The main beef about the saddle is that it patently did not fit the very heavy rider, though it may well have fitted the horse.
I have seen too large riders being sold too small brand new saddles by ‘well known name’ saddle fitting companies, with the rider’s arse squidging out over the back of the cantle. This messes up the whole weight distribution thing.
The main beef about the saddle is that it patently did not fit the very heavy rider, though it may well have fitted the horse.
I have seen too large riders being sold too small brand new saddles by ‘well known name’ saddle fitting companies, with the rider’s arse squidging out over the back of the cantle. This messes up the whole weight distribution thing.
tristar
Well-Known Member
Aperchristmas
Well-Known Member
Thank you for responding. But do you think that a 12 or 13 stone weight limit including tack is realistic or acceptable? I think we all agree that having weight limits in place is reasonable, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't criticise stupid ones.
TPO
Well-Known Member
For a college type set up then yes I think a 13-14st limit is sensible.
In general riding school could possibly be able to accommodate heavier riders if they have appropriate horses.
In my mind the difference is that I believe many colleges dont own the horses and take in horses sent to them. With an RS you can schedule the work load of horses carrying the odd heavier rider and buy appropriate horses.
In a college it might be harder to accommodate one, or more, heavier riders due to lack of that type of horse and/or scheduling restraints if a small number of weight carriers were available. So then do you say we can take four riders over 14st but everyone else under 13? A blanket weight limit seems more appropriate?
Surely there is an onus on each person to be fit for function as we expect horses to be? My function is walk hacks up around a loop so I'm fit for that but not for fast work. If I wanted to up the anti then I should get me fitter and lighter first to make things easier for my horses.
Horse riding is still a sport/physical activity so, while there will always be medical exceptions, surely riders have to take some responsibility for their personal fitness and health? Or do we just let anyone at any weight ride because otherwise you get told you're a "fat shamer"?
honetpot
Well-Known Member
This is a bit in jest, but some countries people in general are just a lot taller, my MIL was Dutch and that side of the family are nearly all over six foot men and women, my daughter is five eight, with my short genes.
https://ourworldindata.org/human-height
Breeding a horse that is taller will not really make it stronger, when you look at the world's oldest breeds that were often multi-purpose animals, where I would imagine selection would be if its ill it goes in the stew, they are nearly all under 14hands. The tall horse is a relatively modern invention.