Sue dysan - made up expert

[conniegirl]

For a college type set up then yes I think a 13-14st limit is sensible.

In general riding school could possibly be able to accommodate heavier riders if they have appropriate horses.

In my mind the difference is that I believe many colleges dont own the horses and take in horses sent to them. With an RS you can schedule the work load of horses carrying the odd heavier rider and buy appropriate horses.

In a college it might be harder to accommodate one, or more, heavier riders due to lack of that type of horse and/or scheduling restraints if a small number of weight carriers were available. So then do you say we can take four riders over 14st but everyone else under 13? A blanket weight limit seems more appropriate?

Surely there is an onus on each person to be fit for function as we expect horses to be? My function is walk hacks up around a loop so I'm fit for that but not for fast work. If I wanted to up the anti then I should get me fitter and lighter first to make things easier for my horses.

Horse riding is still a sport/physical activity so, while there will always be medical exceptions, surely riders have to take some responsibility for their personal fitness and health? Or do we just let anyone at any weight ride because otherwise you get told you're a "fat shamer"?

13 stone INCLUDING tack will exclude most tall girls and most guys. That means a weight limit of 10.5st without tack.
I can get behind a weight limit of 12ish stone without tack but 10.5stone is to low and will promote unhealthy habits/eating.

 

[ester]

I wonder if there is some location bias contributing to people's responses, For me the very large rider is a very rare sight. In all my years of riding I can only think of one person I have seen.

 

[AandK]

Thank you for responding. But do you think that a 12 or 13 stone weight limit including tack is realistic or acceptable? I think we all agree that having weight limits in place is reasonable, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't criticise stupid ones.

That would depend entirely on the horses at that college, wouldn't it. If they don't have any capable of carrying a rider over 13st (incl tack) then there isn't much they can do, other than offer a non-riding course for anyone over that limit.

 

[maya2008]

This is a bit in jest, but some countries people in general are just a lot taller, my MIL was Dutch and that side of the family are nearly all over six foot men and women, my daughter is five eight, with my short genes.
https://ourworldindata.org/human-height
Breeding a horse that is taller will not really make it stronger, when you look at the world's oldest breeds that were often multi-purpose animals, where I would imagine selection would be if its ill it goes in the stew, they are nearly all under 14hands. The tall horse is a relatively modern invention.

I read a really interesting article a few years ago, discussing lameness in horses over 17hh and how the structure of a horse is really not designed to ever be that big. Ponies are well engineered so can cope with more without damage (conditions, lack of perfect warming up, % rider weight, type of work etc). The article was discussing all rounder/sports horse types, but I do know that Shires etc that worked the land rarely worked to an old age.

 

[Aperchristmas]

That would depend entirely on the horses at that college, wouldn't it. If they don't have any capable of carrying a rider over 13st (incl tack) then there isn't much they can do, other than offer a non-riding course for anyone over that limit.

Of course. My assumption is that as a college, they would make sure to have horses suitable for carrying adults. IMO if the horse can't carry 13 stone including tack, then there either are physical problems, or it's just unsuitable as a riding school horse aimed entirely at adults.

 

[sherry90]

Surely we don’t need a study to tell us that if you can’t find a saddle to fit you or your horse, you don’t ride ??‍

 

[windand rain]

Not sure where you have got this information from, my horses was one of the horses that took part and that is simply not the case, all horses had a saddle check by a qualified saddle fitter and a lameness check, many horses were discounted prior to the study for lameness

I take it you considered it safe for a 22 stone person to ride your horse on a saddle fitted to the horse but not the rider. I have always ridden big chunky horses but have never even thought of letting anyone over 100kgs to ride one of them
and although I have always been fat I have never been over 85kgs

 

[TPO]

I wonder if there is some location bias contributing to people's responses, For me the very large rider is a very rare sight. In all my years of riding I can only think of one person I have seen.

Are you insinuating that the land of the deep fried Mars bar may be producing more "very heavy" riders? ?

I was on livery with a very heavy rider. She did have very big horses and they didnt appear to struggle with her but I didnt pay any attention to her riding. It was however obvious seeing her ride through the yard that she didnt at all fit the saddle.

There was an awful example at a show when a too heavy rider & too big for horse/synthetic western saddle (trees only for (very) light people) was competing. The saddle practically bent in two and the skirts were lifted off the horse's back. The horse was visibly uncomfortable and displaying pain faces (the link is often posted on here) as well as other visuals of a sore and unhappy horse. There was lots of whispering amongst show organisers but no on dared say anything in case they were accused of bullying or "fat shaming". That poor wee horse was definitely suffering ?

Without thinking too hard I could easily list 10 other examples (all the fingers I have to check them off) of riders who were too heavy and/or too big for their saddles that I've either been on yards with or seen out competing.

Not all were what I would have classed as "too heavy to ride full stop" but were too heavy for the horses that they chose to ride and/or too big for their saddles.

 

[ester]

lol, no . I just sort of realised that I'd consider a 22st rider more theoretical than being a frequent real life situation and that maybe others didn't.

 

[honetpot]

If you hunt there are plenty of men who look fairly heavy, the traditional wool hunt coat must weigh a few kilo's.

 

[Tiddlypom]

If you hunt there are plenty of men who look fairly heavy, the traditional wool hunt coat must weigh a few kilo's.

And *ahem* many of them are not the most balanced or skilful of riders.

 

[Shilasdair]

The bottom line is that WE ARE ALL TOO HEAVY FOR OUR HORSES.

There is nothing beneficial to a horse at all, nothing that improves welfare, in being ridden.

 

[rabatsa]

I wonder how much a knight in full armour weighed? How many hours were their horses expected to carry them?

 

[Annagain]

If you hunt there are plenty of men who look fairly heavy, the traditional wool hunt coat must weigh a few kilo's.

At my heaviest (I've lost 3 1/2 stone recently - aiming for 4) I was as heavy as I would want to put on any of my (past and present) horses - 2 ID types (unregistered breeding but I suspect both at least 3/4 ID if not 100%) and one Shire x Sec D x TB all approx 17hh. Knowing what my OH (rugby player type, pretty fit*) weighs (he's never been on the back of a horse and won't ever get on one!) I wouldn't be surprised if some of the hunting men I've seen are 22st. My boys are exactly the sorts they are riding so maybe I wasn't too bad, or maybe they are really bad for them and the poor horses are really struggling. Other than that, yes ester, I'd agree it's not that common. Having said that, from the (limited, granted) photos of the VH rider in this study I would not have put her at 22 stone so maybe my judgement on these things is flawed. It doesn't change the fact that they should have had a more gradual increase from the 14st rider to the 22st rider.

*in the traditional sense of the word.

 

[ihatework]

lol, no . I just sort of realised that I'd consider a 22st rider more theoretical than being a frequent real life situation and that maybe others didn't.

The thing is I wouldn’t actually know what other people weigh unless they admit to it, honestly. I weigh far more than I must look as I often have people telling me I’m fine to ride their horses, yet I know I’m not.

The picture of the very heavy rider, if 22st, I’ve seen quite a number of people that size and bigger riding.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Unfortunately it doesn't really matter how good the study was, not having the correct paper work renders it void. If that is found to be the case then the work will have to be redacted. Journals and funders etc are very hot on this.

I had to have a FCO license to gather samples from Antarctica, it didn't take long to get (about a week), which I have to show proof of in all of my work or it can't be published.

I know of someone who gathered some interesting tardigrades from the Galapagos, they didn't have a license though and so nothing can be published about it.

So I am not sure why she needed to forge a letter (if she did) as it wouldn't have taken that long to get, unless she knew it wouldn't be granted for some reason.

How could it possibly be considered ethical to put a 22st rider on a 15.2 horse, of any build, for any length of time? I am not surprised that SD felt the need to avoid an ethics committee.

 

[ester]

If you hunt there are plenty of men who look fairly heavy, the traditional wool hunt coat must weigh a few kilo's.

been out with 3 packs in 3 different areas and haven't seen it though I'm sure some exist/I've just totally forgotten about them/was probably going off the pic of the 22st rider and thinking who I had seen that looked simiar.

IHW I weigh more than I look too, so anything (mostly hhoers) I have ridden in the last couple of years I have been open about my weight, currently on a self imposed ban but working on it

 

[Annagain]

I wonder how much a knight in full armour weighed? How many hours were their horses expected to carry them?

I imagine quite a bit less than we think given humans in general are much taller and heavier now than even 100 years ago, take it back another 500 years and we were probably pretty small - but horses probably were too.

 

[DiNozzo]

I remember when I was a kid, the YO at the stables I learnt at chucked all of us on a set of scales to see if we were where we all were in this discussion.

I was 5inches taller than everyone else at 14, 5'8 and weighed 9 stone 3. Everyone else weighed 7 stone something. I felt hugely obese and dieted dangerously for several months until I was told to knock it off because obviously they weigh less they're smaller. But that's not what you think about when you're 14.

100% yes there should be weight limits, but they need to be imposed sensibly. For example, we should never have been weighed together.

 

[HashRouge]

The bottom line is that WE ARE ALL TOO HEAVY FOR OUR HORSES.

There is nothing beneficial to a horse at all, nothing that improves welfare, in being ridden.

Well yes, but unless we are all going to stop riding we still need to have a conversation about what is a reasonable weight to expect a horse to carry.

 

[honetpot]

Henry VIII weighed from 70-90kg+ from estimates from his armour, and depending on the armour that could have weighed well over 20kg
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/23936
I would imagine the cheaper less bespoke stuff would have weighed a lot more.

 

[thefarsideofthefield]

Of course. My assumption is that as a college, they would make sure to have horses suitable for carrying adults. IMO if the horse can't carry 13 stone including tack, then there either are physical problems, or it's just unsuitable as a riding school horse aimed entirely at adults.

So , before anyone jumps down my throat , I am talking about college students here ie people attendingequine colleges who expect to be provided with horses to ride that are not their own .
No such thing as Equine Colleges in my day so I freely admit that I have little idea of the courses on offer ( feel free to put me right ) , but I assume that the students spending time and money attending these establishments are hoping to pursue a career with horses when they leave ? I understand that there are non-riding horse related courses available ( nutritionist , managerial etc ) but surely , if you are hoping to be able to ride as part of your chosen career , you would understand the need for your weight to be under reasonable limit . I trained for my BHSAI ( 40+ years ago ) as a working pupil at a large equestrian centre and was , as part of my training , expected to ride a wide variety of horses of different shapes , sizes types and abilities in different disciplines ,and I had to demonstrate that I could do that in the exam . We rode 2 horses on the flat and 2 different ones for the jumping . It may sound harsh but what use is the rider , to an employer ,who can only ride one/two massive weight carrying horse(s) ? And how can any ' career ' rider gain experience if they can only ride the one ( or two ) horses available to them ? I once worked for a hunting family where the father was 6'6" and the son 6'2" and they had 17hh+ horses , but his wife and daughter were both @ 5'4" and I had to exercise their 15.2" hunters too ( no - you can't ride and lead every time ) . I have since worked with eventers , hunters , showjumpers , both in the UK and abroad , and without a doubt , if my prospective employers thought I was too heavy to do the job required ( ie ride their horses ) well , then I'm going to struggle to find work . It's up to me to make myself employable , not their responsibility to provide me with weight carriers . Even just as an instructor it's extremely helpful to be able to hop on a horse when required .
I have worked hard to maintain a sensible weight and keep myself fit ( not just for riding but because any job involving horses is going to be both demanding and physical ) and , despite being 5'10" and no stick insect , I have managed to do that without developing an eating disorder ( but I am now very knowledgeble about human fitness and nutrition !) . I take responsibility for myself because a) I want to be healthy b) I care about the welfare of the horses in my care and c ) I want(ed) to work !
So , just to reiterate , I am talking about colleges here . Where does the 14st student expect to find employment that includes RIDING on completing their course ?

 

[ycbm]

Henry VIII weighed from 70-90kg+ from estimates from his armour, and depending on the armour that could have weighed well over 20kg
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/23936
I would imagine the cheaper less bespoke stuff would have weighed a lot more.

I think horses back then were considered old at 9, possibly partly because nobody cared how much weight they carried as long as they were still on their feet.
.

 

[ycbm]

So , before anyone jumps down my throat , I am talking about college students here ie people attendingequine colleges who expect to be provided with horses to ride that are not their own .
No such thing as Equine Colleges in my day so I freely admit that I have little idea of the courses on offer ( feel free to put me right ) , but I assume that the students spending time and money attending these establishments are hoping to pursue a career with horses when they leave ? I understand that there are non-riding horse related courses available ( nutritionist , managerial etc ) but surely , if you are hoping to be able to ride as part of your chosen career , you would understand the need for your weight to be under reasonable limit . I trained for my BHSAI ( 40+ years ago ) as a working pupil at a large equestrian centre and was , as part of my training , expected to ride a wide variety of horses of different shapes , sizes types and abilities in different disciplines ,and I had to demonstrate that I could do that in the exam . We rode 2 horses on the flat and 2 different ones for the jumping . It may sound harsh but what use is the rider , to an employer ,who can only ride one/two massive weight carrying horse(s) ? And how can any ' career ' rider gain experience if they can only ride the one ( or two ) horses available to them ? I once worked for a hunting family where the father was 6'6" and the son 6'2" and they had 17hh+ horses , but his wife and daughter were both @ 5'4" and I had to exercise their 15.2" hunters too ( no - you can't ride and lead every time ) . I have since worked with eventers , hunters , showjumpers , both in the UK and abroad , and without a doubt , if my prospective employers thought I was too heavy to do the job required ( ie ride their horses ) well , then I'm going to struggle to find work . It's up to me to make myself employable , not their responsibility to provide me with weight carriers . Even just as an instructor it's extremely helpful to be able to hop on a horse when required .
I have worked hard to maintain a sensible weight and keep myself fit ( not just for riding but because any job involving horses is going to be both demanding and physical ) and , despite being 5'10" and no stick insect , I have managed to do that without developing an eating disorder ( but I am now very knowledgeble about human fitness and nutrition !) . I take responsibility for myself because a) I want to be healthy b) I care about the welfare of the horses in my care and c ) I want(ed) to work !
So , just to reiterate , I am talking about colleges here . Where does the 14st student expect to find employment that includes RIDING on completing their course ?

I've been struggling to word this all afternoon. Excellent post tFSotF

 

[AandK]

I've been struggling to word this all afternoon. Excellent post tFSotF

Agreed. Colleges are not riding schools, and therefore they should not need to have a wide range of horses to cater for all heights and weights and ages, and their horses are often loaned, not owned. The vast majority will be students in the 17-21 ish age bracket and probably mostly female (going on my own experience there, as I went to an equine college years ago, although that may have changed in the last 20yrs!).

 

[Aperchristmas]

So , before anyone jumps down my throat , I am talking about college students here ie people attendingequine colleges who expect to be provided with horses to ride that are not their own .
No such thing as Equine Colleges in my day so I freely admit that I have little idea of the courses on offer ( feel free to put me right ) , but I assume that the students spending time and money attending these establishments are hoping to pursue a career with horses when they leave ? I understand that there are non-riding horse related courses available ( nutritionist , managerial etc ) but surely , if you are hoping to be able to ride as part of your chosen career , you would understand the need for your weight to be under reasonable limit . I trained for my BHSAI ( 40+ years ago ) as a working pupil at a large equestrian centre and was , as part of my training , expected to ride a wide variety of horses of different shapes , sizes types and abilities in different disciplines ,and I had to demonstrate that I could do that in the exam . We rode 2 horses on the flat and 2 different ones for the jumping . It may sound harsh but what use is the rider , to an employer ,who can only ride one/two massive weight carrying horse(s) ? And how can any ' career ' rider gain experience if they can only ride the one ( or two ) horses available to them ? I once worked for a hunting family where the father was 6'6" and the son 6'2" and they had 17hh+ horses , but his wife and daughter were both @ 5'4" and I had to exercise their 15.2" hunters too ( no - you can't ride and lead every time ) . I have since worked with eventers , hunters , showjumpers , both in the UK and abroad , and without a doubt , if my prospective employers thought I was too heavy to do the job required ( ie ride their horses ) well , then I'm going to struggle to find work . It's up to me to make myself employable , not their responsibility to provide me with weight carriers . Even just as an instructor it's extremely helpful to be able to hop on a horse when required .
I have worked hard to maintain a sensible weight and keep myself fit ( not just for riding but because any job involving horses is going to be both demanding and physical ) and , despite being 5'10" and no stick insect , I have managed to do that without developing an eating disorder ( but I am now very knowledgeble about human fitness and nutrition !) . I take responsibility for myself because a) I want to be healthy b) I care about the welfare of the horses in my care and c ) I want(ed) to work !
So , just to reiterate , I am talking about colleges here . Where does the 14st student expect to find employment that includes RIDING on completing their course ?

I agree with you, but as I have repeatedly stated, the limit of 12/13 stone including tack is just silly for adults! A sound horse should easily carry more than that. This isn't about having no limits on weight, but on having sensible ones.

 

[ozpoz]

Thanks for joining the thread, pedilia,

The main beef about the saddle is that it patently did not fit the very heavy rider, though it may well have fitted the horse.

I have seen too large riders being sold too small brand new saddles by ‘well known name’ saddle fitting companies, with the rider’s arse squidging out over the back of the cantle. This messes up the whole weight distribution thing.

This is pointed out in the study, and the reason for it was to reflect and address real life situations where the saddle is fitted to the horse but not the rider.
It is a common sight and still sadly a not uncommon issue. Hopefully, awareness has increased since the study was published.

 

[McGrools]

I was pretty much going to reply this but TP beat me to it.
I dont know how some posters are so happy to dismiss the animal welfare to blast on about fat shaming instead.

I don't understand the denial and reluctance to address the issue of people being too heavy to be on a horses back.

well said TPO

I teach at a riding school and its very obvious in the horses general demeanor and way of going when they have to carry a rider too heavy for them. Some will look obviously lame, others wont move forward and their way of going is nowhere near as good as when a lighter rider is up.
We have had to introduce a 13 stone weight limit because we can’t source enough safe weight carrying riding school horses and those we have are struggling with the workload. They all have to use the same saddle for every type of rider, so saddle fit does play a big part.
It is upsetting as a teacher seeing a genuine soul of a horse being asked to carry more than it is comfortable with.

 

[Shilasdair]

Well yes, but unless we are all going to stop riding we still need to have a conversation about what is a reasonable weight to expect a horse to carry.

Clearly subjective definition applies here - too heavy is heavier than me - but I'm fine, and a great rider. Horsey people like to use themselves as the benchmark for 'reasonable weight' and 'reasonable ability'.

 

[ApolloStorm]

Having recently had a conversation with a friend, she was saying that anyone over 18stone shouldn’t be riding. And someone that heavy is “ in worlds strongest man territory”. As someone who has never been light and in my adult life has never been under 13st (not for want of trying, for a brief period I was eating like a nutritionist and having Personal training 5x per week, but I’m 5’8 and built like a cob. But as it turns out I have a health issue which causes me to hold onto fat)
I generally find that people misjudge how much people weigh, and are to quick to condemn. At 20%, an 18stone rider + tack would need a horse of 635kg- which to a lot of horses with some substance and bone is more than a reasonable weight, I’ve certainly owned horses of 600-650kg who were not fat! But I suppose that 20% rule was the aim of this study, though if there has been misconduct then it could invalidate study as someone above has said. I think some more research does need doing into this area, as it’d be nice to have some “ industry guidelines”