T/O after 5 months - for those who don't T/O in the winter

[FfionWinnie]

Have you ever considered the very unnatural way you keep this horse is the reason why it's always lame?

Sometimes you have to think outside the box you are living in.

 

[OldNag]

Just to echo AA' s suggestion about Cushings testing.

We had one (20s) who really did have the Cushings look - and yes she had it.

Another (19) who had absolutely no symptoms at all. Very fit. Then came down with lami out of the blue, no apparent cause. Tested and yes, Cushings.

Have recently taken on a 20 year old. No Cushings symptoms but have tested him (negative fortunately ) and will do so
annually. I think I would now test anything over 15, for peace of mind.

Worth doing IMO.

 

[JustKickOn]

Nothing to add regarding the turnout as I can't speak from experience. If I ever needed to, I would brushing boot all 4 legs and over reach boot fronts though. Never bandage in the field, as if they come loose, it's a recipe for disaster.

I would say cushings test before diet change. Given his age, and although he may not present any symptoms, it may be possible he has it.
My girl was diagnosed last July and the only symptom she had was her coat change taking slightly longer, nothing else. She was fit, healthy and in full work. We only tested as a precaution when she fractured a tooth. Subsequent story to that is something else entirely - won't go into it!
I know the test is another cost, but surely it is better to be able to make a well informed decision regarding diet, turnout and management, than to "see how it goes" changing the diet? As with AA's post, it can go downhill so quickly.

 

[AandK]

GG You have took me the wrong way. I didn't say you weren't being supportive at all. Deary me why is everyone so quick to rubbish me and think the worse of me all the time???

The words "yes, but you know as well as I do" meant something completely different to how you thought I meant it said. At the end of the day no mater how you wrap them up if they are intent on running around like loonies all the preventative measures in the world won't make much difference

You have to just grit your teeth and get on with it. This is the way your yard works and the way you choose to keep your horse in the winter. Of course he's likely to have a hooley, but unless you change the way he's managed in winter, that won't change.
All I would do in your situation is make sure he's at the stage he's doing canter in his ridden work before you think about turning him back out. And give him a good work out before you turn him out properly for the first time, it might help take the edge off. If he's been out in a sand pen and able to throw shapes in there each day, then he may not be as bad as you think. Good luck.

 

[ester]

Have you ever considered the very unnatural way you keep this horse is the reason why it's always lame?

Sometimes you have to think outside the box you are living in.

I have to say I certainly don't think it is conducive to strong, resilient soft tissues.
It is just completely beyond my experience to keep horses in for the winter, the worse I have known (not with my own horse but local DIY where I used to ride for someone) was sharing days - but full days none the less in the winter turnout so they'd only get out 2/3 days a week. I just couldn't and wouldn't do it to a horse for either it's physical and mental wellbeing and think the faster we can get away from yards that seem to think it is fine/normal and subsequently fill a yard with horses without having sufficient grazing (and the faster owners stop paying them for it!) the better.
I do struggle to consider that this is the only/best option when you aren't even keeping him on DIY applecart so don't have to factor in getting to him twice a day so your possible area is much larger.

Essentially I have either been stuck with the land we have (wet, clay, somerset levels) and made the most of it/managed it so that it doesn't turn to mud in the winter - we even just about managed it when we only had an acre of it fenced. Or, the better situation being that I am in atm where I drew a 30 min circle round my workplace and investigated yards in that area and there was loads to chose from ranging from high end comp yards with fab facilities but little turnout, some with fab facilities and massive turnout (fair play to them, they even called the yard grazinglands) and some with turnout but not much else. I can't quite fathom how the west midlands is such a non horsey area/lacking in land that there aren't the options available, if you were near London then yes, land is at a huge premium but..

I also think it a bit odd to post so much and somehow expect your questions to be taken in isolation rather than a holistic view taken. You keep going on about how great the hacking is yet previously you have posted about hacking only once/twice a week and spending the majority of time in the school, it wasn't until we got nearly the the clock change that you would get out in the week. It is still my belief that hacking (lots of slow straight line walking) is about the best thing for oldies without any issues. Frank gets hacked 5 times a week, his feet only touch the school one a week to do something in their and even then sometimes it is only in hand straightness training (I would highly recommend that too).

 

[zaminda]

We have had to return 2 horses to turnout in the last 6 months following surgery. Horse 1 had surgery at the beginning of September. The ligaments on a hind leg were damaged, and injections and rest hadn't worked. He was like your horse turned out on a surface for a while, in his case in the school. He then returned to a paddock of about 1/2 an acre, possibly more, once he was up and cantering. He was in there on his own. Before returning to the herd, of which he is the most recent member having joined in 2009, he met a couple of the others on the yard for sniffing and reintegration. When the day came, everyone was fed in their usual spots, then each led up him to meet before being returned to their place. We then released them in order of who would be likely to be the best behaved first. The two most likely to be funny already had back shoes off, as they aren't being ridden, so less risk. The field is approx. 20 acres which helps, and he is only a galloper when the others stir him up. It took a few days, but he is now fully accepted.
We rent a field, so are quite lucky, but he had to box rest at a different yard, as the lady who owns the field didn't have a spare stable over the winter. He then went to her yard for paddock rest, as where he was box resting they are only on yard turnout in the winter, which wouldn't work for me, but does work for them.
Horse 2 is on paddock rest for at least another 6 weeks, again approx. 1/2 an acre, at least, he is cantering in there, but currently only walking with a rider. As he is head gelding, we don't anticipate a problem, but he will need to be doing half an hour trotting before he comes back, his injury isn't soft tissue related.
I have in the past used sedalin and would ride before first proper turnout. I would also allow the others to go out for an hour or so first to get the explosion out of their system.

 

[_GG_]

I have to say I certainly don't think it is conducive to strong, resilient soft tissues.
It is just completely beyond my experience to keep horses in for the winter, the worse I have known (not with my own horse but local DIY where I used to ride for someone) was sharing days - but full days none the less in the winter turnout so they'd only get out 2/3 days a week. I just couldn't and wouldn't do it to a horse for either it's physical and mental wellbeing and think the faster we can get away from yards that seem to think it is fine/normal and subsequently fill a yard with horses without having sufficient grazing (and the faster owners stop paying them for it!) the better.
I do struggle to consider that this is the only/best option when you aren't even keeping him on DIY applecart so don't have to factor in getting to him twice a day so your possible area is much larger.

Essentially I have either been stuck with the land we have (wet, clay, somerset levels) and made the most of it/managed it so that it doesn't turn to mud in the winter - we even just about managed it when we only had an acre of it fenced. Or, the better situation being that I am in atm where I drew a 30 min circle round my workplace and investigated yards in that area and there was loads to chose from ranging from high end comp yards with fab facilities but little turnout, some with fab facilities and massive turnout (fair play to them, they even called the yard grazinglands) and some with turnout but not much else. I can't quite fathom how the west midlands is such a non horsey area/lacking in land that there aren't the options available, if you were near London then yes, land is at a huge premium but..

I also think it a bit odd to post so much and somehow expect your questions to be taken in isolation rather than a holistic view taken. You keep going on about how great the hacking is yet previously you have posted about hacking only once/twice a week and spending the majority of time in the school, it wasn't until we got nearly the the clock change that you would get out in the week. It is still my belief that hacking (lots of slow straight line walking) is about the best thing for oldies without any issues. Frank gets hacked 5 times a week, his feet only touch the school one a week to do something in their and even then sometimes it is only in hand straightness training (I would highly recommend that too).

Not just oldies and not just just happy hackers. Harry Meade for one will only take a horse in the school once a week unless he absolutely has to do more in there. He hacks....a lot...schools on grass as much as possible and so do many top riders who have learned how to keep horses sound. Variety...keeping them off surfaces. The FEI did a a lot of research on this...John McEwen has spoken to me at great length about the importance of not riding on surfaces unless you have to. He is arguably one of the best equine vets the world has seen and when I asked him about surfaces for the yard my landlords are building...he helped greatly, but said we shouldn't need to...people should be happier to train on grass and not subject their horses to surfaces all the time.

Anyway...just putting that out there. It's important.

I'll end with a simple saying, if you keep doing the same thing, you'll keep getting the same results.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Not just oldies and not just just happy hackers. Harry Meade for one will only take a horse in the school once a week unless he absolutely has to do more in there. He hacks....a lot...schools on grass as much as possible and so do many top riders who have learned how to keep horses sound. Variety...keeping them off surfaces. The FEI did a a lot of research on this...John McEwen has spoken to me at great length about the importance of not riding on surfaces unless you have to. He is arguably one of the best equine vets the world has seen and when I asked him about surfaces for the yard my landlords are building...he helped greatly, but said we shouldn't need to...people should be happier to train on grass and not subject their horses to surfaces all the time.

Anyway...just putting that out there. It's important.

I'll end with a simple saying, if you keep doing the same thing, you'll keep getting the same results.

This is so right. For those of us who go buying or have done in the past, how many horses have you turned up to see/try and been told they don't hack, ride on fields or expose the horse to 'difficult' terrain.

I bought my very best horse ever out of a top international yard. His routine was stable to covered horse walker, all walkways were rubberised, out of walker into lunge pen and then along another rubber walkway to the indoor school where he was worked. Then he made his way along another rubber track to the solarium for a bath and blow dry, back up the rubber path to his prison cell.

The vet that vetted him for me actually put on the report that the horse needed to be kept in a more natural environment and would benefit from my set up at home - fields, no school and hacking. The first year of having the horse and trying to change his routine was a total and utter nightmare. I had bought a dressage horse competing at medium who could not trot on grass, had no idea how to graze and pooped his pants when he saw a cow, a sheep or a pheasant. He was however, Boeing 747 proof.

He went on to be a real star once he had learnt to work on all surfaces, and today in retirement he lives in a paddock with his own house and hard standing. The door is never shut and if I do have to shut it he throws a massive tantrum.

 

[Smogul]

the faster we can get away from yards with horses without having sufficient grazing (and the faster owners stop paying them for it!) the better./QUOTE]


And the faster owners realise that is if they want good facilities they should be prepared to pay a reasonable rate, the better!

 

[Smogul]

gets 2 cuts of Hay/haylege off them.
The grazing is well managed, rotated, well drained and not over grazed. We often have far too much grass!

You are lucky! Where we are, there is no way you would ever get 2 cuts of hay as there growing season is too short. Also, grass isn't growing yet as day time temperatures are too low.

 

[only_me]

You are lucky! Where we are, there is no way you would ever get 2 cuts of hay as there growing season is too short. Also, grass isn't growing yet as day time temperatures are too low.

Really? We get 2 cuts every year normally, although can be hay or Haylage depending on weather. Maybe it's because we have so much rain though (NI) but we've never struggled to get 2 - we only make to keep from 1st cut (yard combined with our field is about 16acres) & then a nearby farmer will normally take the 2nd.

 

[ester]

We woudn't get 2 cuts here in wilts, even with loads of fertilising, reseeding, etc etc (not my choice )
we would easily do it on our somerset ground if we wanted to, that land has not had any sort of fertiliser in the last 15+ years.
Not a million miles away from each other and essentially the same climate but a big difference on grass growth

 

[ester]

the faster we can get away from yards with horses without having sufficient grazing (and the faster owners stop paying them for it!) the better./QUOTE]


And the faster owners realise that is if they want good facilities they should be prepared to pay a reasonable rate, the better!

Yes though tbf I am yet to meet anywhere that charges a premium for maximum turnout, lots that do for arenas, walkers, and somewhere to park your trailer.

 

[Birker2020]

Have you ever considered the very unnatural way you keep this horse is the reason why it's always lame?

Sometimes you have to think outside the box you are living in.

So you think that a horse with a suspensory branch injury hooning around on a peat field (which is still soaking wet by the way and with very little grass) is better off that a horse in a 'unatural' sand paddock where it is able to have a play without the deep surface, frozen hoof marks and the like, socialise with the horse next door and eat add lib hay.

Perhaps I should have not moved yards at all and continued allowing him to be chased by the YO's out of control mob of foreign imported rescue dogs, where the field was very deep in mud in places and where the mentality was being told 'he enjoys being chased, its like a game to him'. When I witnessed my horse cowering by the gate with a pack of dogs an inch away from him hind tendon growling, barking and attempting to nip, funnily enough I did not agree with the YO's findings, and that is why I moved my horse to what I believed was a yard where his injury would be best rehabbed.

I cannot say for any certainty (AND NEITHER CAN ANY OF YOU) that my horse would be any better off had he been permitted access to a field rather than a sandpit for the last two winters, and cannot say he would still be here now had he, with his injury being what it was.

I really can't win.

 

[ester]

You are still making the assumption that a horse turned out will hoon, they really don't! I can't actually remember the last time I saw one on the yard hoon, the most is canter from one corner to the other, stop, carry on with life.
Nothing wrong with peat, the best anticoncussive surface there is the way it vibrates.
We get it that you think you are doing the very best for your horse, it just so happens that a lot of people disagree and would not keep a horse in that manner, or expect it to stay particularly sound if doing so.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

No one is saying that you should have left your horse at the last yard to be chased by dogs. That would be idiotic.

 

[only_me]

So you think that a horse with a suspensory branch injury hooning around on a peat field (which is still soaking wet by the way and with very little grass) is better off that a horse in a 'unatural' sand paddock where it is able to have a play without the deep surface, frozen hoof marks and the like.

Perhaps I should have not moved yards at all and continued allowing him to be chased by the YO's out of control mob of foreign imported rescue dogs, where the field was very deep in mud in places and where the mentality was being told 'he enjoys being chased, its like a game to him'. When I witnessed my horse cowering by the gate with a dog an inch away from him back fetlock growling and barking, I did not agree with the YO's findings, funnily enough.....and that is why I moved my horse to what I believed was a yard where his injury would be best rehabbed.

I really can't win.

Vet has always told me that if horse has any injury nothing is worse than letting loose in the sand school; too many abrupt stops which can injure further & parts can be deep so increase strain on fragile joints. Current vet prefers to put out into field (preferably flat) so has room to gallop but not stop quickly. After box rest put mine into concrete yard for a day so can walk about and then into a small woodchip area so can play without getting any speed up, then into field.

Problem is, not everyone has access to facilities to allow being "transitioned" back into field, if grazing is not available then the safest thing is probably into a sand school - but I would still prefer to chuck out into field if at all possible. It's about working with what you've got, rather than what you would like

You've done the best that you can, and tried to reduce further injury risk as much as possible, the rest is up to the horse! And after 5 months in, ANY horse regardless of condition is going to play/hood about for a bit!

 

[FfionWinnie]

No I am saying you have kept the horse in an unnatural way for so long one can expect nothing but injuries as has been borne out by your horse's health.

The way to have a sound horse is to be the correct size for it. To hack it on a variety of natural surfaces steadily and regularly and mainly in straight lines. To keep it outside as much as possible using its legs the way God intended.

The way to make a horse lame is to stable it for extreme amounts of time. Turnout in small areas for restricted time. Ride it mainly on an unnatural surface doing lots of circles and turns. Lunge it on circles.

We all know what you do with yours because you post about it so regularly!

 

[ester]

No I am saying you have kept the horse in an unnatural way for so long one can expect nothing but injuries as has been borne out by your horse's health.

The way to have a sound horse is to be the correct size for it. To hack it on a variety of natural surfaces steadily and regularly and mainly in straight lines. To keep it outside as much as possible using its legs the way God intended.

The way to make a horse lame is to stable it for extreme amounts of time. Turnout in small areas for restricted time. Ride it mainly on an unnatural surface doing lots of circles and turns. Lunge it on circles.

We all know what you do with yours because you post about it so regularly!

This,
conditioning in short, which is very very hard to manage for long term soundness in a stable.

only-me yes, it is the sliding stops that are much sharper than in a nice slippy field and tight turns that make me wince. When F tries that going down hill in the field he quite regularly slips over (no shoes) but I would actually rather that as it means there is a maximum stopping pressure put on the legs.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Forgot something. Horse walkers are another great way to stuff up a horse. The torque on their legs from going round and round on tiny circles disturbs me. No horse of mine will ever be subjected to one of those things.

 

[Birker2020]

No I am saying you have kept the horse in an unnatural way for so long one can expect nothing but injuries as has been borne out by your horse's health.

The way to have a sound horse is to be the correct size for it. To hack it on a variety of natural surfaces steadily and regularly and mainly in straight lines. To keep it outside as much as possible using its legs the way God intended.

The way to make a horse lame is to stable it for extreme amounts of time. Turnout in small areas for restricted time. Ride it mainly on an unnatural surface doing lots of circles and turns. Lunge it on circles.

We all know what you do with yours because you post about it so regularly!

Well thanks for that, its so good to have such expert opinion. Such kind words from you, especially the sentence about ' to have a sound horse is to be the correct size for it' no doubt in reference to me being overweight, nice to be brought back down to earth with a bang. Its good to be criticized by someone so knowledgeable as you, gosh there can't be many on this website with your knowledge. And the bit about lunging, because as you know I lunge him every day for at least fifty minutes on a 10 metre circle. When he collapses on the floor I just give him a good kick and he soon gets up again. And the fact that its my fault my horse has had all these injuries due to my mismanagement, I just love him to be caged in his 8ft by 8ft stable for 72 hours at a time and when he does go out at lease he can shuffle around in his 12ft by 12ft sandpit. What fantastic hindsight. How perceptive and insightful you are. Thank you, so kind and thoughtful of you to take the time to give me some constructive criticism and to help in the way you have.

 

[ester]

well you did seem to miss the point entirely from FW's first post and went on about horses hooning round fields, it seemed you needed some clarification as you asked FW what she meant.

So you think that a horse with a suspensory branch injury hooning around on a peat field (which is still soaking wet by the way and with very little grass) is better off that a horse in a 'unatural' sand paddock where it is able to have a play without the deep surface, frozen hoof marks and the like, socialise with the horse next door and eat add lib hay.

 

[JFTDWS]

I love the idea that a frozen peat bog, being chased by vicious immigrant hounds (touch Daily Mail there?!) is the only alternative to excessive stabling and a sand pit for most of the year.

FWIW, I agree with FW about surfaces, stabling and horse walkers. I'd add in correct training - both in terms of developing fitness and manner of work too.

 

[ester]

I love the idea that a frozen peat bog, being chased by vicious immigrant hounds (touch Daily Mail there?!).

Not without adding how much it costs

 

[JFTDWS]

Not without adding how much it costs

And they cause cancer...

 

[Birker2020]

I love the idea that a frozen peat bog, being chased by vicious immigrant hounds (touch Daily Mail there?!) is the only alternative to excessive stabling and a sand pit for most of the year.

FWIW, I agree with FW about surfaces, stabling and horse walkers. I'd add in correct training - both in terms of developing fitness and manner of work too.

I didn't say it was a frozen peat bog. The fields were I am now are peat based. The dogs that were chasing him were imported rescue dogs - street dogs and this was on the previous yard. There is nothing Daily Mail about that JFTD and why you think it is amusing is beyond me. I can assure you it was a total nightmare having my horse chased on a daily basis by a pack of dogs, TOTALLY HEARTBREAKING. I did the only thing I could do for my horse and move. Where I ended up was the ideal solution for his leg injury and the physio and vet have never said otherwise, in fact on more than one occasion the vet has said that the sandpit was probably his saving grace as his leg could not have coped with being pulled in the mud in a field.

You all come on here, all righteous and perfect and act like you know everything and have never made a mistake in your life and know all there is to know about everything and then criticize the hell out of me for the way I keep my horse. The title of this post was t/o after 5 months - for those that don't t/o in the winter. I did not ask for your opinion on how I looked after my horse or to slag me off because I am a couple of stone overweight. How dare you, you are like a pack of hyenas.

I asked you on your opinion on the best way to turnout my horse after not being on grass for a few months. And for Ffion Winnie to insinuate that I have brought on Bailey's injuries because of the way I look after him, his lack of going out into a field, or because I am too heavy for him (which I am not) is really unkind, unnecessary, and extremely cruel but just shows what type of people you are.

His injuries are nothing to do with the way he is kept for five months of the year. And why you are so intent of being such bi*ches is totally beyond me. I'd love you to say this to my YO I really would. You are really unkind.

 

[ester]

I think plenty of us have made mistakes, but as else said earlier you then do something different.

His injuries are nothing to do with the way he is kept for five months of the year. And why you are so intent of being such bi*ches is totally beyond me. I'd love you to say this to my YO I really would. You are really unkind.

I am astounded that you don't think that keeping a horse in for 5 months of the year makes it more susceptible to soft tissues injuries and I would say the same to your YO and anyone else that kept horses that way, that isn't just us making it up you know, it is what happens, scientifically and has been said several times on this thread and elsewhere by a whole heap of people. Yet you still seem to believe that isn't the case and that it is perfectly possible for a horse kept in better conditions (ie better for conditioning of soft tissue) to spook in a dressage test and injure itself. I'm afraid I rather believe that if the horse was strong enough in the first instance that would not be the case.
I don't think it was cruel or unnecessary of FW to make that plain as you didn't seem to be understanding other posts about it, and keeping horses is holistic, so expecting questions to be answered in isolation is just unreasonable.
However if you can't see that then in your head you have no need to change anything that you are doing.

 

[JFTDWS]

I didn't say it was a frozen peat bog. The fields were I am now are peat based. The dogs that were chasing him were imported rescue dogs - street dogs and this was on the previous yard. There is nothing Daily Mail about that JFTD and why you think it is amusing is beyond me. I can assure you it was a total nightmare having my horse chased on a daily basis by a pack of dogs, TOTALLY HEARTBREAKING. I did the only thing I could do for my horse and move. Where I ended up was the ideal solution for his leg injury and the physio and vet have never said otherwise, in fact on more than one occasion the vet has said that the sandpit was probably his saving grace as his leg could not have coped with being pulled in the mud in a field.

My point about the DM is that whether they are as British as a bulldog, or imported rescue dogs is irrelevant. Dogs allowed to chase horses in the field is undeniably a huge failing on the part of the YO/YM who is responsible for the dogs and the horses, and absolutely nothing to do with the provenance of the dogs. Your comments on that front do sound Daily Mail-esque to me, because it's just so irrelevant.

You are also missing the fundamental point of mine and Ester's and other posts that the only alternative to stabling and sand pits is not actually sucking mud. It is entirely possible to turn out on grass (or other better surfaces than sand) year round without turning out in mud or frozen mud. Even on my small patch of clay I use in winter, I only had mud around the gate and their stable (and if I'd had an injury, I could've fixed that easily enough).

 

[ester]

Obviously not having a soft tissue injury while competing at much the same levels as you applecart, on a somewhat more vertically challenged beast is just luck though.

 

[Birker2020]

Yet you still seem to believe that isn't the case and that it is perfectly possible for a horse kept in better conditions (ie better for conditioning of soft tissue) to spook in a dressage test and injure itself. I'm afraid I rather believe that if the horse was strong enough in the first instance that would not be the case..

You know perfectly well that it wasn't just the spook at the dressage that hurt his leg, as I have explained countless times, it was the lunging on the a twisted shoe that had set off a chain of events and had weakened the leg, with the additional work I was putting in preparing for my dressage test and re starting the horses jumping again (on vets advice) on what I thought was an undamaged leg which culminated in the injury when he did spook a week or so later.

And you don't think that it is cruel for FW to say that by keeping my horse in the way I have, it is my fault that he has had his injuries? Nor the comment about having the right size rider for the horse wasn't a dig at my weight. And you find that totally acceptable to do you Ester? And you would be totally happy if someone said the same to you? I find that very hard to believe.