T/O after 5 months - for those who don't T/O in the winter

[Leo Walker]

You all come on here, all righteous and perfect and act like you know everything and have never made a mistake in your life and know all there is to know about everything and then criticize the hell out of me for the way I keep my horse. The title of this post was t/o after 5 months - for those that don't t/o in the winter. I did not ask for your opinion on how I looked after my horse or to slag me off because I am a couple of stone overweight. How dare you, you are like a pack of hyenas.

I asked you on your opinion on the best way to turnout my horse after not being on grass for a few months. And for Ffion Winnie to insinuate that I have brought on Bailey's injuries because of the way I look after him, his lack of going out into a field, or because I am too heavy for him (which I am not) is really unkind, unnecessary, and extremely cruel but just shows what type of people you are.

His injuries are nothing to do with the way he is kept for five months of the year. And why you are so intent of being such bi*ches is totally beyond me. I'd love you to say this to my YO I really would. You are really unkind.

I make many mistakes, and quite often post about them on here. People arent always lovely, and sometimes they arent even right, but more often than not they are. I try and always take on board whats said to me regardless, because otherwise, what is the point in posting in the first place? And sometimes, people do need to be pulled up on what they are doing. This is one of those occasions.

 

[ester]

well know, I thought he went lame when he spooked at dressage which was the case.

You still don't accept the scientific fact that lack of turnout = poorly conditioned soft tissues?

It might not be your fault but I don't think you way you keep him has helped, I don't think it cruel, I think it a probability that you seem to have great trouble getting your head around even considering let along accepting! If you don't want any input even though the people on here only ever have the horse's best interests at heart (being a horse not a people forum) and well, if that upsets the owner sometimes, tough it doesn't make them mean, or wrong, or bullying or all those other things that come up and eventually, one hopes, the owner might actually take some of it in.

I don't think it was a dig at your weight, just part of the long list of facts around keeping horses long term sound.

 

[Birker2020]

My point about the DM is that whether they are as British as a bulldog, or imported rescue dogs is irrelevant. Dogs allowed to chase horses in the field is undeniably a huge failing on the part of the YO/YM who is responsible for the dogs and the horses, and absolutely nothing to do with the provenance of the dogs. Your comments on that front do sound Daily Mail-esque to me, because it's just so irrelevant.

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I left the yard because the dogs were chasing my horse with his injury. I am not sure why that is so irrelevant in your eyes and why you cannot see that for what it is. And for the hundredth time there are no yards in the area I would wish to stable my horse that have fields that would be suitable for my horse with the injury that he has and where I would not be compromised on other things like good hacking, or a decent ménage surface. I am not sure why that is so hard to believe.

We have lots of yards by us, but most are ruled out because my horse needs individual turnout. Some are ruled out because I need to stable my horse on shavings. Others are ruled out because their ménage surface is S**T, or their fields are like a bog because they are not managed properly. Others because the only hacking is down a busy A road. And others obviously due to being outside my price range, much as I would love to be able to pay £240 a week to go to the yard next door or £180 a week to the other one.

Thank you to those who have replied to my post with helpful and 'on topic' advice. I will consider your advice. I will ask my vet next time I speak to him if he feels that Bailey is able to cope with winter mud, but as we have already discussed the merits of the sandpit, I think I know my answer.

For those that have just used this exercise for another bitch fest please go away, I find it all very pathetic and wearing.

 

[ester]

how often are you hacking atm? You keep saying how great it is yet as I said earlier you were only able to do so at weekends until the clocks changed.
and don't even get me started on the life we force our horses to have on individual turnout.

 

[JFTDWS]

I left the yard because the dogs were chasing my horse with his injury. I am not sure why that is so irrelevant in your eyes and why you cannot see that for what it is.

I don't believe you have read my comments. If you have, you need to re-read them... The provenance of the dogs is irrelevant, not their being allowed to run riot by the YO. I'm not sure that it's a particularly difficult concept to grasp...

 

[ester]

I don't believe you have read my comments. If you have, you need to re-read them... The provenance of the dogs is irrelevant, not their being allowed to run riot by the YO. I'm not sure that it's a particularly difficult concept to grasp...

maybe she is unfamiliar with the dailyfail's take on things?

 

[Birker2020]

otherwise, what is the point in posting in the first place? .

I posted about something entirely different to the responses I got from those in the minority who feel their only aim in life is to make others feel S**T about themselves in order to get their kicks.

Ester I try to hack out three or four days a week now the clocks have changed and last weekend I hacked out on both Saturday and Sunday for an hour and a half each day and again midweek when a hack turned bad which ended up in an almost two hour hack. The hacking is wonderful, and cannot be faulted, the cars all slow down without exception, and there is very little traffic with many bridlepaths and lanes and lots of alternatives. Coming from a yard where the only hacking was down a very long lane leading to a National Trust House so having to stand on the verge every few yards to avoid elderly weekend drivers travelling to the House or having to cross a busy A road it is amazing the comparrison.

My horse has been on individual turnout since about 2008 when he got kicked and ended up with a bone fragment which according the vet could have turned catastrophic had I continued to allow him turnout, when I had originally been told by the vet to turn him out in the first place. It was only when I insisted on an xray having been told it was 'just bruising' and knowing full well that he shouldn't have been as lame as he was with 'just bruising' that I discovered upon xray that it was potentially life threatening. There was also potential nerve damage and problems with extending that leg, which fortunately didn't happen.

When I enquired a few years ago about moving to another yard I was told it wouldn't be fair on the other horses as your horse has lived on its own for eight years and it may be harmful to other horses which I completely agree as he would be very boisterous. He has always liked to play and he would be his own worst enemy.

 

[ester]

will ask my vet next time I speak to him if he feels that Bailey is able to cope with winter mud, but as we have already discussed the merits of the sandpit, I think I know my answer.

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There you go again, why winter mud!?!? Obviously if you ask your vet if lashings of winter mud will be good for him the answer will be no.

 

[ester]

I posted about something entirely different to the responses I got from those in the minority who feel their only aim in life is to make others feel S**T about themselves in order to get their kicks.

No, they are worried more about the horse than their owner's sentimentalities. It being a horse forum and all. And as I have said before, and will say again keeping horses is generally HOLISTIC

 

[JFTDWS]

maybe she is unfamiliar with the dailyfail's take on things?

Possibly... It was a tongue in cheek comment, but we're going to fixate on that and ignore the important aspects of the management issue here.

 

[YorksG]

Surely the causes of injuries need to be assessed carefully to prevent re-occurance. If a horse is lunged on a twisted shoe, and subsequently spooks and causes long term damage, the cause would be being lunged on a twisted shoe (why on earth did that happen?) If that is on top of conformation problems, or insufficient fittening work, or insufficient turnout, or a rider who is at the top end of the weight for the horse, or a combination of all four, then surely a set up which can change those variables which can be changed, is the most appropriate for the horse.

 

[KautoStar1]

I think you just have to take as many reasonable precautions as you can - hand graze him first, lightly sedate - he needs to have the edge taken off but be aware of his surroundings and control of his legs - and turn him out alone. I get Ester's view about individual turn out, but sometimes it is a necessity short term (and maybe long term too).

If the injury has healed then its not much more of a risk than before.


In terms of your livery, can you not cast your net further ? Mine is 25 miles away from home, its not ideal distance wise for me, but from his perspective it is perfect as he has access to his paddock all year round, except of course in exceptional weather circumstances.

 

[ester]

I get Ester's view about individual turn out, but sometimes it is a necessity short term (and maybe long term too).

If the injury has healed then its not much more of a risk than before.


In terms of your livery, can you not cast your net further ? Mine is 25 miles away from home, its not ideal distance wise for me, but from his perspective it is perfect as he has access to his paddock all year round, except of course in exceptional weather circumstances.

Yup absolutely a necessity at times, just not convinced on those that have to suffer it as a long term life choice (the last 8 years in this horse's case), but then Mum's mare really likes her sheep!
I think I suggested casting net wider earlier, especially as he is on livery so applecart doesn't have to get up there twice a day which obviously limits you more but apparently solihull is awash with mud and unsuitable yards. (so tempted to mention immigrant dogs here and failing to resist )

 

[Wagtail]

Winter mud is prevalent in most yards which are on clay soil or are over-stocked. Countless people keep their horses where they hang around in muddy gateways and get mud fever and risk injury. I don't know how large the sand pit the OP describes is. I have one (20mx40m) and in the wettest parts of the winter the horses go out all day in it and the arena. If I ever move, I will be constructing another one as well as a riding arena because it is absolutely invaluable. In my lifetime with horses I have personally known several horses that have had life-ending injuries in the field, and zero horses that have had life ending injuries being turned out on a surface. I will continue to keep the horses off the fields when I deem them too slippery or muddy. I don't think surfaces should be rubbished as they have been on this thread. I do agree that 2 hours turnout a day is far too little, but if you are at livery, you often don't have a choice. I can honestly say that in the worst of the weather the horses much prefer the sand. I had one group of 3 horses given free access to the sand from their field both in the winter and the summer. In the winter they chose almost never to go into the field. In the summer they went out to eat and returned to the sand to doze. They voted with their feet.

I agree that over-schooling of horses on a surface in circles is extremely bad for them, but the same is true in the field. Lots of small circles are not good at all. I don't like horse-walkers, although they have their place in rehabilitation if the horse is unsafe to walk in hand.

ETA: I make it clear to my liveries that when I take the horses into the sand turnout they can still have their horse turned out in the field if they prefer. Only one person has chosen to do that in the eleven years I have run the yard.

 

[Birker2020]

In terms of your livery, can you not cast your net further ? Mine is 25 miles away from home, its not ideal distance wise for me, but from his perspective it is perfect as he has access to his paddock all year round, except of course in exceptional weather circumstances.

No I can't Kauto Star. I am already up at 6am every morning, in work for 7.15 after a 35 minute drive. Nine hours at work. Then another 35 minute drive at night to the yard. Then a 30 minute drive to my partners, then a 15 minute drive home. I have two parents in their eighties who are poorly at the moment, one of whom is due to start radiotherapy. My GP says I am suffering from exhaustion and am picking up my blood test results tonight to see where we go from here. I cannot drive 25 miles from home.

YorksG the horse had a mad fit on the lunge in around the second half of December last year bucking, and galloping around on the lunge and springing a shoe. Before the shoe came off he managed to somehow stand on the twisted shoe before I could stop him (he was very fresh) and a nail penetrated the sole. He was poulticed for two days which wase clear so had his shoe back on. I had no reason to know he had sprained his suspensory branch, he was not lame and indeed on the day of the dressage in front of a very experienced dressage judge came 4th, before spinning after the test at a banner on a fence and sustaining the injury.

I am sorry but I am not going to comment further on this post now.

 

[ester]

soil types change a lot in a small area though, we have one slope with clay on it, the rest is chalk.
Also your horses are out all day in it, not an hour a day (which is where the hooning gets worse- if they are going to hoon I would still rather they had more space, but avoiding hooning in the first place is even better).

 

[ester]

I am sorry but I am not going to comment further on this post now.

That's a shame as you haven't answered any of my points about your beliefs/reasoning about soft tissue strength and work.

 

[YorksG]

YorksG the horse had a mad fit on the lunge in around the second half of December last year bucking, and galloping around on the lunge and springing a shoe. Before the shoe came off he managed to somehow stand on the twisted shoe before I could stop him (he was very fresh) and a nail penetrated the sole. He was poulticed for two days which wase clear so had his shoe back on. I had no reason to know he had sprained his suspensory branch, he was not lame and indeed on the day of the dressage in front of a very experienced dressage judge came 4th, before spinning after the test at a banner on a fence and sustaining the injury.

I am sorry but I am not going to comment further on this post now.[/QUOTE]

I appreciate that the lunge episode was an unfortunate accident, however the other variables are just that, variable, it is possible that the original injury would have been less severe if the other conditions had been more favourable for long term health IMO.

 

[KautoStar1]

No I can't Kauto Star. I am already up at 6am every morning, in work for 7.15 after a 35 minute drive. Nine hours at work. Then another 35 minute drive at night to the yard. Then a 30 minute drive to my partners, then a 15 minute drive home. I have two parents in their eighties who are poorly at the moment, one of whom is due to start radiotherapy. My GP says I am suffering from exhaustion and am picking up my blood test results tonight to see where we go from here. I cannot drive 25 miles from home.

I was only suggesting this on the basis that if he had more turn out across the year then the need for you to exercise him on a daily basis would be reduced. And if that's the case and given he's an older horse, reducing his work load wouldn't be a huge issue. So potentially it could buy you the time you clearly need at the moment for other things and give him what he needs, which is all year turn out. it was just a thought.

 

[Birker2020]

That's a shame as you haven't answered any of my points about your beliefs/reasoning about soft tissue strength and work.

Sorry Ester, I have explained my circumstances and it is what it is. I have always done my utmost for the horse who I love dearly and if that contradicts anyone else's techniques or management then so be it. I believe I have given him the best possible chance, lets face it most of you would have euthanized him years ago, had you been in my shoes.

So how you feel that it is beneficial to strip down every aspect of my management, scrutinize it and feel like you have the right to belittle and put me down (I am not just talking about you) laugh at me, criticize and talk down to me is beyond me. All about a subject that I did not even post about in the first place. Truly amazing. I refuse to be your entertainment any longer.

 

[RunToEarth]

That's a shame as you haven't answered any of my points about your beliefs/reasoning about soft tissue strength and work.

She won't, because anyone with half a brain cell knows the correlation between having a horse stabled for five months of the year and the affects on soft tissue - which is why most people have commented on the daily management of the OP's horse, rather than answer the OP, as I believe people who stable horses for five months of the year are in the minority.

I don't know why I still read the OP's threads, all she ever does is dismiss every piece of logical advice she gets and keeps on buggering through blindly. I agree with everything FW has posted. There are variable factors in keeping horses sound that are very much unique to each horse, but there are certain things that are just basic common sense IMO.

 

[ester]

So do you agree that lack of turnout = poorly conditioned soft tissues?

I'm not talking about your circumstances and what they are I am talking about the acceptance or even considering the science behind what a lot of people have been getting at (not just FW).

 

[Birker2020]

For those who have rubbished my claims that there is no grass coming through at the moment, or that other peoples fields aren't wet or boggy, you might like to read this post

https://forums-secure.horseandhound...nter-fields-Grass-taking-AGES-to-come-through

 

[ester]

I don't think anyone rubbished those claims, we have very little growing atm and only just so I am not surprised that those further north wouldn't. I don't imagine FW has much up there in scotland!
This isn't a dreadful thing for most of us though, too much grass is not good.

 

[Regandal]

Looking after a fragile horse is exhausting. If I were you, I would get him used to turnout and use the summer to find decent grass livery. Chuck him out for a year. Give yourself a decent break.

 

[Smogul]

Really? We get 2 cuts every year normally, although can be hay or Haylage depending on weather. Maybe it's because we have so much rain though (NI) but we've never struggled to get 2 - we only make to keep from 1st cut (yard combined with our field is about 16acres) & then a nearby farmer will normally take the 2nd.

You obviously didn't read my first post. Nothing to do with rain (although we have too much). we are still having overnight frost and low daytime temperatures which don't make good growing conditions and do make it a pretty short season.

 

[Red-1]

...... all she ever does is dismiss every piece of logical advice she gets and keeps on buggering through blindly.

Slightly off topic, but anyone else really surprised that the word beginning with b was not starred out???? It seems that many lesser one do get starred.

 

[Smogul]

Yes though tbf I am yet to meet anywhere that charges a premium for maximum turnout, lots that do for arenas, walkers, and somewhere to park your trailer.

Yards don't offer it because owners won't pay for it. I used to do the books for a yard where YO did the research and the costings. To offer all year turnout in the area (high rainfall, heavy clay soil, short growing season), she would have had to reduce the yard size by about one third. As she still had to make a living, livery charges would have had to go up accordingly. When offered this option, owners voted with their feet, moving to other yards which charged less and offered correspondingly poorer turnout. Yard is no longer in business

 

[ester]

No, I meant I know plenty that offer lots of turnout and charge less/the same than those that don't all other things being equal. They probably should charge more, but they just don't so it is hard to say it would happen if people were happy to pay a premium for it as no where I know with excellent turnout charges more than those with pants turnout.

 

[Birker2020]

No, I meant I know plenty that offer lots of turnout and charge less/the same than those that don't all other things being equal. They probably should charge more, but they just don't so it is hard to say it would happen if people were happy to pay a premium for it as no where I know with excellent turnout charges more than those with pants turnout.

Sometimes you go to a yard with the promise of x, y and z and end up with nothing like and conversly other times you are told that the turnout is wonderful and find that come the winter it is just deep in mud.

Not everything is in black and white.