T/O after 5 months - for those who don't T/O in the winter

No wonder there is no grass if only 6 acres is supposed to be enough for 9 horses, the YO is stretching the facilities too much, I don't understand why they don't use all the land for the paying liveries, charge a bit more to cover the extra outgoings, with the cost, risk involved with making decent hay saving 6 acres for that probably makes poor business sense, taking on one extra livery would probably be far better use of the land.
That doesn't help you but it does explain why there is so little grass on what is supposed to be rested land, it probably get stressed so much in the summer resting all winter is not enough to allow it to recover, I used to make hay but the land suffered almost as much from that as from grazing, it needed fertilising at great expense to get enough hay to make it viable and even then it is easier to buy in as you can see what you are buying rather than having to use what you made.

As for turning him out, if there isn't much grass he will be at less risk from colic so that is not such a concern as it might be if there was loads of rich grass.
 
You didn't mention in your OP that he has a history of colicking on grass. Turning him out hungry to gorge, rather than whizz around, is not going to be great either then.

Re the Cushings' test. It wasn't just his lethargy that was an indicator, there is also his age, the poor top line and the dropped belly. I'd be routinely testing a 19yo for Cushings', let alone one that also has several indicators for the disease.

What a shame that your yard elects to keep half of its land for hay, rather than buying in forage and allowing year round turn out.
 
be positive said:
No wonder there is no grass if only 6 acres is supposed to be enough for 9 horses, the YO is stretching the facilities too much, I don't understand why they don't use all the land for the paying liveries, charge a bit more to cover the extra outgoings, with the cost, risk involved with making decent hay saving 6 acres for that probably makes poor business sense, taking on one extra livery would probably be far better use of the land.
That doesn't help you but it does explain why there is so little grass on what is supposed to be rested land, it probably get stressed so much in the summer resting all winter is not enough to allow it to recover, I used to make hay but the land suffered almost as much from that as from grazing, it needed fertilising at great expense to get enough hay to make it viable and even then it is easier to buy in as you can see what you are buying rather than having to use what you made.

As for turning him out, if there isn't much grass he will be at less risk from colic so that is not such a concern as it might be if there was loads of rich grass.
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I don't know the inns and outs. I am only guessing the acreage which is left for grazing is six acres (it may be more). Its not my place so I don't know, I have never bothered studying it as its not necessary to do so. In the summer it is more than adequate for all our horses, they have a large electric fenced strip each to go in which is about 140 foot long x 60 foot wide and that does for five of the horses, the other one is in a small paddock due to health issues and the pony is in the back garden/small paddock. My horse has an electric tape across the width which I move by a couple of foot over a couple of metres a day (again guessing measurements now).

It is a nice yard, the facilities are good, the ménage when maintained is fantastic for my horse (this was another major consideration when I moved as the other yard I was considering hadn't got that good a surface) and like I say the hacking is amazing, you can hack for two hours and only come across half a dozen cars. As my horse is now 19 and entering his latter years, the hacking is a major selling point for me as it will inevitably be hacking that we end up doing the most of rather than schooling or competing although I plan to do fun rides and a bit of combined training later in the year.

We are really going off subject with all this. My post was entitled T/O after 5 months - for those who don't T/O in the winter and WAS NOT entitled "lets put Applecart14 down by criticizing the way she looks after her horse".

My o/h who works as Head Groundsman at a large competition centre in the area agrees that grass is not growing very well so far this year and a local herdsman is struggling for grass for his cows. We are only in April, I am sure it will grow soon, the ground will dry up and he can go out. I am content for him to go in the sandpit in the meantime.

I think I will look at booting him, (that's not kicking him up the ar*e) and giving him some Zyklene from the vet.
 
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If he gets turned out for two hours and ridden for one that's only 3 hours a day of exercise out of 24... for me I would worry about the boredom being shut in all thst time. Sorry to say but it must be pretty miserable for him.

As for being deep in mud not all fields are like that! Mine have muddy gateways true, but the rest if the field is pretty dry.

Your YO is not really managing the grazing if she is putting 9 horses on 6 acres.... far better to use all and outsource the hay but I guess they are selling it back to you so making a profit?

Also you are in charge of what you do with your horse! A good yo shouldn't just dictate as to who's horses go where and when without taking each individual in to account. As others have said I would look to move for next winter because it really doesn't sound like a good yard :-(

With regards to actually turning him out I would keep him on a lunge and let him munch the grass and let the line out bit by bit untill you feel it's safe to unclip - if he's been turned out every day albeit in a 'sandpit' then he should be delighted to eat to real grass and be more interested in grazing than hoofing around. Good luck! :-D
 
Everyone is not putting you down for how you look after your horse, being on livery is usually a compromise in some way and people vary in what compromises they are prepared to make, my post was more about the YO in general, it is obviously not your business so you have no influence but it really does not make sense to me, I have 17 acres and around 10-12 on it so can compare, to make hay on half the land rather than cater more fully for the clients and their horses welfare which should always be at the forefront of any livery yard.

I would love to keep my land with no horses on it all winter, it would look lovely, but will not compromise the well being of the resident horses who are more than happy going out in mud and apart from a bit of mud fever all have done well this winter even the horse who previously had a serious tendon injury goes out nearly every day.
 
applecart14 said:
Look I am not going to argue the toss about grazing. Ester you are probably able to chuck your horse out 'anytime you want' because you have more than one horse of your own. Mine has to be with something next to it. We have seven liveries and nine horses. Only five of those will be on the grass. We have 12 acres. I am not the yard owner. I have no say about who goes where, when, or how. I have to follow what I am asked to do. The fields have no grass on them yet. It is still too wet. This is what I am told.

when you are on a livery yard you often have no control.
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Err I have one horse, Frank. No more. on DIY livery - so I don't call all the shots/I have a YO! We have 10 horses on the yard, 7 turned out in sort of pairs in adjacent paddocks. We have much more than 12 acres as the grass growth here is poor as on chalk with a low soil depth but that is partly why I chose the yard (because of the acreage used/and the genuinely fab hacking where you can go out for 4/5 hours all off road woop :D). To only have 6 acres used for grazing and the rest for hay given the numbers on your yard is just bonkers IMO!

I'm not arguing just proving a point that you seem to imagine that winter turnout is only knee deep mud. It isn't/doesn't have to be in most of the country and I agree with JFTD that being stabled on small sand turnout has to be about the worse scenario for soft tissue strength maintenance and development. I don't think you can blame people for wondering if there would have been a better way to not to have to be in this situation in the first instance. I would also be insisting mine wasn't turned out in a small paddock to start with because of his injury.
 
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be positive said:
No wonder there is no grass if only 6 acres is supposed to be enough for 9 horses, the YO is stretching the facilities too much, I don't understand why they don't use all the land for the paying liveries, charge a bit more to cover the extra outgoings, with the cost, risk involved with making decent hay saving 6 acres for that probably makes poor business sense, taking on one extra livery would probably be far better use of the land.
s.
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I don't understand that, you can't get masses of hay even off a good 6 acres (we didn't get enough to feed 2 all year off 4 acres even in a good year, and good grass growing land). And you rarely save much by making in house either, unless they then sell it back to the liveries. Much better just to buy it in in the first place. I partly like that our yard makes its own but equally it is more stress than necessary and because the chalk soil is a bit pathetic requires a fair amount of fertilising and IMO they have left it too late to move the horses to the summer grazing again this year to do it. Not too much of an issue when you have native that poor grass is great for anyway ;).

Of course the 6 acres in use is enough in summer, summer is a piece of pi** for most people but if you can't argue that if you have all year round turnout you don't end up in your current quandry.
 
I have 1 horse on DIY livery, the Yard owner has 9 horses on 10 acres and gets 2 cuts of hay off 5 acres each summer.
Horses come off the winter paddocks early april, she rolls and fertilises the winter paddocks (they own an organic chicken farm and chicken muck is probably the best fertiliser ever) then gets 2 cuts of Hay/haylege off them. Horses go back on to winter paddocks in october.
Horses are out 24/7 in summer and 7am to just before dark in winter every day except christmas day or if the yard freezes over and it is too slippery to get horses out (hasnt done it in the last 2 years).
The grazing is well managed, rotated, well drained and not over grazed. We often have far too much grass!
 
ester said:
Err I have one horse, Frank. No more. on DIY livery - so I don't call all the shots/I have a YO! We have 10 horses on the yard, 7 turned out in sort of pairs in adjacent paddocks. We have much more than 12 acres as the grass growth here is poor as on chalk with a low soil depth but that is partly why I chose the yard (because of the acreage used/and the genuinely fab hacking where you can go out for 4/5 hours all off road woop :D). To only have 6 acres used for grazing and the rest for hay given the numbers on your yard is just bonkers IMO!

I agree with JFTD that being stabled on small sand turnout has to be about the worse scenario for soft tissue strength maintenance and development.
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Please would you mind explaining why would flat sand turnout (which is regularly harrowed) be a worse scenario for a soft tissue injury than a field which has frozen hoof marks in the very cold weather, or some degree of stickiness/suction in the wet weather? I honestly thought that this solution would be the best for my horse at the time and the vet agreed with me.

I had planned (but forgot) on asking the vet last time he visited if my horse could live out for eight hours a day 365 days of the year in a field situation so that I would always have an alternative if I felt that the only option to me was to retire the horse at a retirement centre or at a cheaper yard where good facilities did not matter.
 
It is the lack of movement, regular and slow that is the issue on whatever surface, usually those that are out regularly tend to be relatively sensible on frozen or sticky ground. Those I have known with short bursts of sand turnout tend to hoon and have a buck and fart as your YO puts it before any of their vital bits are warmed up and often having to turn sharply.

I have to say before I decided to move F to wilts I was most worried about the hacking (because we like to go out for hours, well I do, I guess he doesn't get that much choice but the footing was important to me which is why we didn't end up near where I lived at the time as it was all too many stoney tracks albeit off road, followed by turnout and everything else was incidental. There are much more professional yards about but they wouldn't suit what I need them to be.

But remember you are talking to someone who moved house for the beast, from a comfortable 2 bed flat to a very small studio annexe where I regularly trip over things :eek3: :p purely because of said stoney tracks.
 
This is a very interesting thread and poses a question that many of us face with box resting horse or horses kept on yards with no winter turn out. An older horse will often physically struggle with confinement more than a younger one, although a younger one will possibly struggle more mentally.

There are many risks associated with turning out a previously confined horse. I had one who did 11 months of box rest in a fairly large 20 x 20 box. When he finally came out he was walked in hand with acp on board, even that was like flying a kite. I used Zyklene without success and moved on to Calmex which was much more successful whilst he was inside.

He went out into the paddock (3rd of an acre ish) he was used to with IV sedation and a vet with him. His girlfriend who had been in an adjacent box next to him throughout the 11 months (he could interact and touch her through the wall), went out with him. I set up a electric box in the middle of his paddock of 8 x 8 and put his girlfriend in there so she was with him but could not be hurt by him. She was 11.2 and he is 17.2. Obviously I am fortunate to be able to set this system up. It did work and after a few days I was able to let Little Moon out to be with the big boy. The horse needed more rest to recover from his injury and it appeared the turn out had been a success. I think most would agree that the horse looks well in the picture below. Top gone as you would expect with 11 months of being stood still at the age of 19/20. Certainly not a cushingoid horse, no indicators at all.

1stAug12Ted010.jpg


Mightily relieved to be off the treadmill of looking after him on box rest I was looking forward to seeing him relax, recuperate and revel in his new regime. My joy was short lived, within 10 days he presented with 2 septic feet together, a fever with high temp and no appetite. He took himself into the field shelter got down and rarely got up. His girlfriend stood over him for many days, it took 4 of us to poultice his feet, we had to hold him up and the vets were in twice a day.

LeoandMoon30812011.jpg


Why did this happen, what did I do wrong, my beloved boy got very close to being pts. When he was finally well enough to test he was found to have a high ACTH result and was started on one prescend immediately.

The picture below was taken the day he came out of his box and was about to be sedated to go out, he was suffering from uncontrolled cushings disease. It is a disease that can take you by surprise and I doubt anyone would look at this and say 'cushing horse'

Leoretirestoday772012004.jpg


I would not wish what I went through with my horse on anybody, I hope your turn out goes well OP, with no mishaps or surprises.
 
Adorable Alice, thank you I am sure the turnout will go okay. This is the second time he has been turned out after two winters at the same yard and about the tenth time he has been turned out after limited turnout due to injuries/spavin/colics, etc. so I am sure he will be okay but you can't help but worry, especially as he is getting older. If I can I will ensure that his ice vibe boots go on before turnout if this is practical to do so and I will stay with him for a while to see he is okay. Judging by previous occasions though, its not normally the first or even second time they go out that they hoon around, but once the grass has been eaten down a little they find their legs!

I love your horse, very nice stamp.

I hear what people are saying about cushings but I would like to try the food changes first and the turnout to see if it makes any difference. He has already gone a lot more forward since I last wrote, when I rode him in his dually, for some reason it really seems to suit him and he moves very nicely in it as you will see from this old link of me riding him in it during a bute trial in 2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTWfHlttlcg
 
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applecart14 said:
Look I am not going to argue the toss about grazing. Ester you are probably able to chuck your horse out 'anytime you want' because you have more than one horse of your own. Mine has to be with something next to it. We have seven liveries and nine horses. Only five of those will be on the grass. We have 12 acres. I am not the yard owner. I have no say about who goes where, when, or how. I have to follow what I am asked to do. The fields have no grass on them yet. It is still too wet. This is what I am told.

when you are on a livery yard you often have no control.
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No arguments from me...just challenging the idea that winter turnout is all mud and wetness, it isn't.

I'm not going to sit and criticise how anyone on here keeps their own horse, but I will say that being on a livery yard doesn't mean you're forced into no turnout. It just means you have a choice to make...stay on a yard that doesn't give your horse the best management options or find somewhere else. That may mean more money/longer commute, but for my horse, it would be worth it...I've done it in the past and would do it again if I had to.

I actually don't think livery yards should be allowed to run if they are unable to afford a horse a minimum amount of time turnout during the winter months. It's just unfortunate that there is a/ no regulation and b/ too many livery owners taking on too many horses for the land that they have, putting people like you in the position that you are in.

Not everyone is always having a go at you. I can see why it might feel like that sometimes, but sometimes, some of us are saying things because we want you to be able to find a better solution for you and your horse...that's not a bad thing.
 
_GG_ said:
No arguments from me...just challenging the idea that winter turnout is all mud and wetness, it isn't.

I'm not going to sit and criticise how anyone on here keeps their own horse, but I will say that being on a livery yard doesn't mean you're forced into no turnout. It just means you have a choice to make...stay on a yard that doesn't give your horse the best management options or find somewhere else. That may mean more money/longer commute,
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Or living in a shoe box ;) :D
 
As a YO I have the opposite problem. I sometimes have liveries who don't want to give their horse as much turnout as I would like to give them. I like horses to be out 24/7 if at all possible and in large paddocks, preferably with company (although for various valid reasons some horses need individual TO). But this is not always what my clients want. Most do, but not all. I give them the turnout they ask for.
 
If you are lucky OP he will be so excited by the grass that there will be very little running around, even if there isn't much of it. I turned my mare out after 5 months box rest and all she did was put her head down and eat grass - didn't even get out of a walk! However, the show jumpers I used to work with would go crazy when first turned out after a spell off the grass. It was never for as long as yours has been restricted - we would turn out through the winter as and when, but they were very fit horses and loved their turnout, so everything tended to get a bit wild. They were worse if they'd been competing abroad and were then turned out afterwards - that was when we really got fireworks! I was always nervous because as yard manager I was technically responsible and it was always my decision to choose who went out with who and who went out alone and then I just had to hope I'd got it right! After long spells off grass, I used to boot all round - brushing boots front and back and a pair of over-reach boots. And then hope for the best :p. If it's any consolation, the worst that ever happened (to any of the horses) were a few (very) small cuts, presumably from kicking up a stone or something. In fact, the most serious injury was received by me! Turning out after the horses had been competing in Europe for three weeks, the last horse to go out yanked forwards and then fly bucked whilst being led through the gateway. Which put him in just the right position to kick me in the back of the ribs with the front of his hoof as his back legs came forwards!

As for the winter turnout - I am sympathetic. It's not always as easy as it sounds from reading posts on here. My sister and I struggled with poor winter turnout throughout our teen years, as we were restricted as to what yards we could use because we couldn't drive and had to be able to walk to any yard we were on. Now that we are older and can both drive (we still keep them on the same yard) we have been able to go further afield and have just about the best winter turnout around. Our gateway has been hideous all winter because our horses share with sheep and the land owner drives through to feed the sheep, but the rest of the field is lovely :D. This was taken I think in Feb/ March and they have been on it all winter!

 
I've had some dreadful turnout problems on previous yards. The yard I was on when I had my first horse in 1987 had barbed wire everywhere and mud galore. The second yard I was on for four years had 40 geldings in about two fields (with gap between fields) of about 50 acres so the actual field wasn't too bad but 40 horses all milling around a gate over a period of weeks waiting to come in for their tea was a nightmare and I often sucked my willies off trying to get my horse out.

The third yard was okay but I didn't winter there. The fourth yard was always deep in mud, the track down to my horses field was knee deep and really sucking mud. I was there for five years and really struggled with mud.

The fifth yard where I was at for ten years had another really bad track down to the field, so much so that my friend and I paid £70 each to get hardcore put down which we did ourselves but it made little difference. His field was really deep mud in places too and was compounded by him galloping around in there whilst chased by a pack of the yard owners out of control dogs (the only reason I left the place).

The sixth yard was next door to where I am now, owned by a famous SJ and rented by some woman who would lie and say my horse had been out when he hadn't, instead putting him on the walker for two hours a day. I thought I was going mad - its obvious when your horse hasn't been out in the field, and I was positive he hadn't been, but she would say he had! I would then ask the groom who said "no he has not been out today as its been raining". GRRRR he is a horse not an ornament.

This yard where I am now was brilliant with rehabbing my horse. What with the surface and the sandpit in the winter months. I know two hours is not a lot but he is always ready to come in when his allotted time is up and comes to call every time. I guess he is of the age where a little home comfort is nice for him, but I do agree that its probably not really enough with his arthritis.
 
Wagtail said:
As a YO I have the opposite problem. I sometimes have liveries who don't want to give their horse as much turnout as I would like to give them. I like horses to be out 24/7 if at all possible and in large paddocks, preferably with company (although for various valid reasons some horses need individual TO). But this is not always what my clients want. Most do, but not all. I give them the turnout they ask for.
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Wagtail I would kill to be on your yard! My yard is expensive with great facilities but no fields, and now want turn out more than anything else even a school.
 
applecart14 said:
I often sucked my willies off trying to get my horse out.
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Sorry, nothing helpful to add, but this has me in stitches. I just tried to type "wellies" and my computer keeps correcting it to "willies"!!!

I hope you are able to safely turn out your boy with no risk - in an ideal world we would of course all have good, well managed fields, but sometimes it just isn't so easy and we have to make the best of a bad situation.
 
Sheep said:
Sorry, nothing helpful to add, but this has me in stitches. I just tried to type "wellies" and my computer keeps correcting it to "willies"!!!

I hope you are able to safely turn out your boy with no risk - in an ideal world we would of course all have good, well managed fields, but sometimes it just isn't so easy and we have to make the best of a bad situation.
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Sheep of course we do, you are dead right. People assume I haven't left the yard because I can't be bothered to travel additional distance or pay more money. This really annoys me. Its not a case of that, its because quite simply there is no where else that will cater for his (and my) needs. Besides which, as I have pointed out previously the yard has been CRUCIAL to his recovery from his first suspensory injury and his current one due to the arena surface, which when maintained is excellent, and also due to the sandpit which has prevented him putting his feet in frozen hoof prints, or trudging through mud. It also has excellent quiet hacking, with much hill work, again for a horse like Bailey with the problems he has, is a fantastic bonus.
 
You might be pleasantly surprised Applecart. My share horse endured 5 months of box rest 3 years ago. As we prepared him for re-joining the herd (very settled herd of 6) he had a little fenced off 5m x 5m pen in the corner of the field which we gradually made bigger until it was about 40m (it went the length of the school) x 8m. He started off spending about 15 mins in there (just wanted the grass) and we worked up to about 4 hours as the pen got bigger.

When we turned him out we put him in the pen and just opened up one side of the fence. The daft boy spent an hour in there before he realised he was free and wandered off to eat! The others were out 24/7 by this point and were right at the bottom of the 7 acre field but he's quite an anti-social horse and wasn't interested in seeing them, just the grass.
 
annagain said:
You might be pleasantly surprised Applecart. My share horse endured 5 months of box rest 3 years ago. As we prepared him for re-joining the herd (very settled herd of 6) he had a little fenced off 5m x 5m pen in the corner of the field which we gradually made bigger until it was about 40m (it went the length of the school) x 8m. He started off spending about 15 mins in there (just wanted the grass) and we worked up to about 4 hours as the pen got bigger.

When we turned him out we put him in the pen and just opened up one side of the fence. The daft boy spent an hour in there before he realised he was free and wandered off to eat! The others were out 24/7 by this point and were right at the bottom of the 7 acre field but he's quite an anti-social horse and wasn't interested in seeing them, just the grass.
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My old mare was on solid box rest for 15 months...she was as chilled on the day she came out as she ever was...foot perfect but I think as an owner, you can tell if you're going to have trouble most of the time.x
 
_GG_ said:
My old mare was on solid box rest for 15 months...she was as chilled on the day she came out as she ever was...foot perfect but I think as an owner, you can tell if you're going to have trouble most of the time.x
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Yes but you know as well as I do that its often not the first day or two you have the problems. Like horses going into an existing herd for the first time..... you breath a sigh of relief after day one when your horse comes in with all its body parts but on day four find your horse only had three legs :(
 
applecart14 said:
Yes but you know as well as I do that its often not the first day or two you have the problems. Like horses going into an existing herd for the first time..... you breath a sigh of relief after day one when your horse comes in with all its body parts but on day four find your horse only had three legs :(
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I was trying to be supportive of you with that post...saying that some horses are absolutely fine, but ultimately, it is the owner that is most likely to know what to expect.
 
_GG_ said:
I was trying to be supportive of you with that post...saying that some horses are absolutely fine, but ultimately, it is the owner that is most likely to know what to expect.
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GG You have took me the wrong way. I didn't say you weren't being supportive at all. Deary me why is everyone so quick to rubbish me and think the worse of me all the time???

The words "yes, but you know as well as I do" meant something completely different to how you thought I meant it said. At the end of the day no mater how you wrap them up if they are intent on running around like loonies all the preventative measures in the world won't make much difference :(
 
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As you've said, my mares first day after box rest was a calm affair, day two she went a bit nuts and I couldn't watch as she attempted to let off steam in a small area and did the hand break turns people have mentioned! Thankfully I stuck with it and she calmed down, timing is important, the hospital paddock at my yard has high passing traffic at certain times of the day and it was this which set her off, seeing her mates going out and just getting too excited. That first wall of death charge was awful but no harm done and she settled right into it and was back in her herd after 2 weeks. Mine was bandaged (her injury required it) but she wore golly galoshes over them which means even if they come undone they are contained, they didn't in fact but the galoshes kept them dry.

http://gollygaloshes.com/wound-skin-care
 
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applecart14 said:
GG You have took me the wrong way. I didn't say you weren't being supportive at all. Deary me why is everyone so quick to rubbish me and think the worse of me all the time???

The words "yes, but you know as well as I do" meant something completely different to how you thought I meant it said. At the end of the day no mater how you wrap them up if they are intent on running around like loonies all the preventative measures in the world won't make much difference :(
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Then we've both misunderstood each other...I don't know how me saying I was trying to be supportive of you warrants a comment about everyone being so quick to rubbish you. We're saying the same thing about horses being turned out after box rest...I'm not having a go or trying to rubbish you...just to be clear.
 
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