Talk to me about highlands

[Shilasdair]

Shilasdair, l note you aren’t a Troll. Wonder exactly what you are?
Not worth pursuing the 15.2 M&M though, better to go for a cob of which 15.1 was the norm but now that maxi cobs are around maybe that would suit today’s heavyweight rider better.

It seems you have little regard for our native breeds all of which have a breed standard with a specified height range and many are on the rare breeds list. No one is suggesting that everyone wishes to take their highland eventing, those who do will ensue both they and their pony are suitably fit and educated in order to compete at the levels required.

Does no one on this forum know how to have a discussion without incivility? I despair.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Does no one on this forum know how to have a discussion without incivility? I despair.

I do but in this instance I'm not really interested in a debate about increasing a breed specific detail such as increasing height by a hand. It's a non starter and quite frankly a ridiculous notion to even consider.

 

[Shilasdair]

I do but in this instance I'm not really interested in a debate about increasing a breed specific detail such as increasing height by a hand. It's a non starter and quite frankly a ridiculous notion to even consider.

Yes, you do.
But I genuinely want to know WHY it's ridiculous - the alternative seems to be that fewer and fewer Highlands will be bred. That would be a shame, as they are fantastic, characterful ponies very suited to modern riders if they were just a bit bigger.

Maybe someone will explain, someday.

 

[windand rain]

Perhaps because they do not need to be.

 

[Shilasdair]

Perhaps because they do not need to be.

They don't need to be taller?

According to the Rare Breeds Survival Trust, Highland pony breeding mare numbers are in sharp decline, and Eriskay pony foal registrations are close to non-existent.

If there was a bigger market for foals, that trend could be reversed.

Such a shame.

 

[McFluff]

I think you’ve raised good points Shilasdair, but they are also emotive. And perhaps derail the OP thread.
Highlands are awesome OP!

Thinking of the points raised - I occasionally question my love of riding. Is it really fair on the horse. I’m around 15% of his weight (with tack) - but couldn’t physically get to 10%. For a 500kg horse with 10kg for tack hat and boots, the rider would have to be 40kg. As an average adult, I’d be anorexic and seriously underweight. So if 10% were the correct rule, most of us would have to stop riding our beloved ponies. That’s an unpleasant and uncomfortable thought. Particularly if we’ve convinced ourselves that they can carry us easily and seem to have fun (I know that’s what I’ve done!).
And it would mean that there would be less demand for anything less than probably 700kg. Most people wouldn’t have a horse purely as a pet (well not intentionally anyway!). So that would be curtains for most of our lovely natives.
The human race is getting bigger and heavier. Not necessarily good for us though. Humans aren’t meant to be bigger and heavier. Personally keeping within 15% of my horses limit motivates me to manage my weight.
The other challenge with the % of body weight rule is that it can encourage people to have the horse heavier, thus compounding the issue.
We do need to have a way to properly discuss the issues of increasing human weight and the impact on our traditional and much loved breeds. There is a challenge there. Do we ‘grow’ the breed (with unknown consequences) or manage the human size and understanding of limits. There isn’t an easy answer. And people will get upset and potentially feel threatened by the conversation.

Have to say thanks for the giggle at the image of a highland eventing with a dead stag on board...

 

[Shilasdair]

Thanks for your answer, McFluff.
Apologies to the OP - didn't mean to derail the thread. Highlands are indeed awesome.

Yes, I think a lot about such things too. You say humans aren't meant to be bigger and heavier - but I think we are meant to be taller. Height can be an indicator of good health and nutrition - humans are taller partly through genetic selection (people want tall men as partners, perhaps) and partly through better food. I agree we are all not meant to be heavier though (guilty on that one!).

I do see a lot of Highlands looking a bit curvy - and their owners do say 'He's not fat, he's a Highland' as though condition scoring didn't apply.

Perhaps there needs to be an additional section added to the HP standard - for 14.2hh to 15.2hh ponies? I have certainly seen quite a lot of people looking for 'an overheight Highland' which suggests the market is there. I would certainly buy a 15.2hh Highland.

Just a thought, but agree that there is no easy answer.

 

[McFluff]

Fair point on the taller bit - I’m average for my generation, but now as an older person - I’m well short compared to new generations.

I love when you see a highland in peak fitness. I have fond memories of riding the balmoral highlands (in the days when trekking was used to get them fit for stalking). At the end of the season they were in great shape. Personally I think that should be the show standard - but that’s for another thread completely.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

The problem if you change the breed standard you start encouraging people to breed inferior specimins. The Britsh Native breeds have changed a lot over the last 50 years. Many have become lighter framed, performance types moving away from the ponies true purpose. Of which many are now defunct. Shetlands are no longer used in the mines, Welsh ponies no longer carry the farmers to market. Fell ponies no longer go logging. Highlands are probably in the minority of breeds that are still doing their intended purpose of carrying deer off the hills where vehicles can't go.

Everything is evolving. I personally would not like to see the breed standard change - especially for the show ring.

Look at what has happened to the Wesh D's - some top 16hh and they have lost their pony characteristics. The have big, common heads, their action is more rounded, they aren't ponies any more.

 

[mavandkaz]

Don't worry, I'm loving all this.
I agree, if they were a bit taller they would appeal to more people, but then wouldn't be a 'true' highland. I would love a 15hh one, and as I have no interest in showing I wouldn't care that it's not correct. And trust me, if I do get one it will never be in show condition! (Oh and I wonts be trying to event it either ?)

 

[Michen]

It is an interesting idea. Same could he said for connies. Obviously over 14.2hh is incorrect but the oversize ones are so sought after for all sorts of disciplines, they are the perfect small sports horse for many.

 

[Leo Walker]

(Oh and I wonts be trying to event it either ?)

Someone else already is!

eventing highland

 

[JJS]

It is an interesting idea. Same could he said for connies. Obviously over 14.2hh is incorrect but the oversize ones are so sought after for all sorts of disciplines, they are the perfect small sports horse for many.

Doesn’t this argument then apply to all native breeds though? Most are pony sized with pony characteristics, and if you start breeding them over height, you inevitably lose some of their other breed specific traits.

 

[windand rain]

One of the reasons for the highland pony's rarity has been a closed shop approach old breeders hanging onto their ponies and not allowing others to use their stallions. They quickly became very valuable and as a result the market was made even smaller as we all know that rarity increases value especially as they are so versatile. Breeders understandably want to keep the breed but also keep the numbers low to keep the value high. I personally do not agree with that ethos but I do understand it. The trouble now is a lot of the old breeders are literally old and dying off or retiring from breeding which leaves the Highland pony in a bit of a precarious position. It will take young adults to recognise their value and carry on keeping these wonderful ponies available to more people. As I keep repeating and will until I draw my last breath there is a British native pony for every average horse owner and some for those that want to go further. They are tough, hardy and talented. They may never win an olympic medal but neither will 99.9% of riders. They certainly can and do do dressage to a good level, event, showjump to 120cm and are the best family friend you could have. They Pony doesnt need to be bred to a bigger height most are quite capable of doing the job at 14.2 it is peoples perception of feeling they must move from ponies to horses that is the problem . Even so there are some lovely Welsh that are allowed to go to any height there are also many better but smaller ones still able to be perfectly good leisure riding horses. Horses over 16hh are mechanically bred to be unsound and it is more by good luck than good judgement that any survive in one piece to make old bones.
I should add that it applies to all the rare breeds they are rare because their original job has been lost or the numbers have been kept or have become low due to fashion

 

[sbloom]

I would argue that some breeds have moved towards being chunkier (Fells as an example, look at photos from over 50 years ago) and with this comes the shorter backs. They look super cute but are less suitable as general riding types, and that's not to say they're not suitable for many many riders, but the Welshies are being bred shorter and shorter, the in hand lines have very curvy and very short backs, hideous to try and find a good saddle fit for. I would also worry that increasing the heights would lead to other issues. Sadly, IMO, Highlands don't always make great crosses (I own a Great Dane and they are similar) so that's not an especially good route to try and keep some characteristics while getting a bigger animal.

 

[Michen]

Doesn’t this argument then apply to all native breeds though? Most are pony sized with pony characteristics, and if you start breeding them over height, you inevitably lose some of their other breed specific traits.

It does, but connemaras are arguably the most sort after native breed for competition.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

It does, but connemaras are arguably the most sort after native breed for competition.

For all rounders yes, along with New Forests. They don't have the renowned fire of the Welsh but are very athletic so make a good choice for most of the family.

SBloom I am not a fan of the inhand bred Welsh - dipped backs, too short coupled because of that and ridiculous necks on them!

 

[Shilasdair]

The problem if you change the breed standard you start encouraging people to breed inferior specimins. The Britsh Native breeds have changed a lot over the last 50 years. Many have become lighter framed, performance types moving away from the ponies true purpose. Of which many are now defunct. Shetlands are no longer used in the mines, Welsh ponies no longer carry the farmers to market. Fell ponies no longer go logging. Highlands are probably in the minority of breeds that are still doing their intended purpose of carrying deer off the hills where vehicles can't go.

Everything is evolving. I personally would not like to see the breed standard change - especially for the show ring.

Look at what has happened to the Wesh D's - some top 16hh and they have lost their pony characteristics. The have big, common heads, their action is more rounded, they aren't ponies any more.

I agree that some Welsh Ds are losing type. But you can change the breed standard, but still ensure that ponies are true to it.

And I'm not sure that Highlands were bred for bringing the deer off the hills - they were used as all round utility ponies on crofts and farms. My family had one 50 odd years ago, which they used for pulling a cart to feed/much out the animals. They tried replacing him with a tractor, but Donald would move himself forwards on cue, whereas a tractor never learned the route.

Highlands often have a nice jump in them, and seem to enjoy it - not surprised that someone has evented one - I imagine the issue is the distances, not the height.

 

[Shilasdair]

One of the reasons for the highland pony's rarity has been a closed shop approach old breeders hanging onto their ponies and not allowing others to use their stallions. They quickly became very valuable and as a result the market was made even smaller as we all know that rarity increases value especially as they are so versatile. Breeders understandably want to keep the breed but also keep the numbers low to keep the value high. I personally do not agree with that ethos but I do understand it. The trouble now is a lot of the old breeders are literally old and dying off or retiring from breeding which leaves the Highland pony in a bit of a precarious position. It will take young adults to recognise their value and carry on keeping these wonderful ponies available to more people. As I keep repeating and will until I draw my last breath there is a British native pony for every average horse owner and some for those that want to go further. They are tough, hardy and talented. They may never win an olympic medal but neither will 99.9% of riders. They certainly can and do do dressage to a good level, event, showjump to 120cm and are the best family friend you could have. They Pony doesnt need to be bred to a bigger height most are quite capable of doing the job at 14.2 it is peoples perception of feeling they must move from ponies to horses that is the problem . Even so there are some lovely Welsh that are allowed to go to any height there are also many better but smaller ones still able to be perfectly good leisure riding horses. Horses over 16hh are mechanically bred to be unsound and it is more by good luck than good judgement that any survive in one piece to make old bones.
I should add that it applies to all the rare breeds they are rare because their original job has been lost or the numbers have been kept or have become low due to fashion

You make some interesting points. When you say 'there is a British native pony for every average horse owner' I think that used to be true - but I'm 5'10 so there's no pony (apart from a Sec D) that I'd be able to ride now. I think we are all much more aware of the issue of rider weight - and at my height even if I was skinny (the longer lockdown continues, the less likely that is!) I'd be too heavy.

I do agree that Highlands would make good all rounders - but now they are so proportionately small, that they are only suitable for children/teenagers/tiny adults.

Regarding 'rarity' - I agree that reducing supply can increase the price - but to me they seem very low value - which suggests there isn't a market for them, rather than being highly sought after. Looking at the HPS for sale listing, many of them would cost more to produce (in terms of breed, feed and care for) than they are being sold for... The most expensive one on there is only £5k.

 

[Gloi]

You make some interesting points. When you say 'there is a British native pony for every average horse owner' I think that used to be true - but I'm 5'10 so there's no pony (apart from a Sec D) that I'd be able to ride now. I think we are all much more aware of the issue of rider weight - and at my height even if I was skinny (the longer lockdown continues, the less likely that is!) I'd be too heavy.

I do agree that Highlands would make good all rounders - but now they are so proportionately small, that they are only suitable for children/teenagers/tiny adults.

Regarding 'rarity' - I agree that reducing supply can increase the price - but to me they seem very low value - which suggests there isn't a market for them, rather than being highly sought after. Looking at the HPS for sale listing, many of them would cost more to produce (in terms of breed, feed and care for) than they are being sold for... The most expensive one on there is only £5k.

Maybe the reason there isn't as much of a market is that people who do not have experience of just what our large native breeds are capable of, are being convinced that they need a big horse when a native breed would suit them much better.

 

[Shilasdair]

Maybe the reason there isn't as much of a market is that people who do not have experience of just what our large native breeds are capable of, are being convinced that they need a big horse when a native breed would suit them much better.

Or perhaps because people want something larger? Overheight Highlands (and Connies according to someone up thread) seem to be snapped up.

Would be interesting to do market research and find out...

 

[Jill's Gym Karma]

the alternative seems to be that fewer and fewer Highlands will be bred.

Well one alternative could be a proper drive towards a slimmer, healthier society instead of changing breed specs to suit our lardiness. Looking at my school photos from the 80s there were hardly any fat kids. The current UK child obesity stats are shameful (and the figures on young children having sugar-rotted multiple tooth extractions).

I think we normalise too much that's detrimental these days.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

We get A LOT of people asking if we have any horses free or for loan because they dont want to pay for a horse and think that getting a freebie exracer is the answer to all their problems. Most of these people wouldn't be able to look after them and I weed them out very quickly so our horses only go to the best of homes. These people would be better off with a native but they don't want one because they would have to buy it and it wouldn't give them the kudos of having 'rescued and retrained' a racehorse. Natives are far cheaper in the long run!

Whilst I probably wouldnt have a Highland I would have another Fell pony in years to come when I need another riding horse.

 

[DabDab]

Or perhaps because people want something larger? Overheight Highlands (and Connies according to someone up thread) seem to be snapped up.

Would be interesting to do market research and find out...

I think people convince themselves that they need something taller. To a certain extent it's the same as what happens with PREs. The Spanish (male and female) are quite happy riding them at 15hh, but people in northern Europe want a 16hh version. As a result there are some awful examples of leggy PREs knocking around here, that are definitely no stronger than a 14.3hh or 15hh version.

My connemara is far stronger than my 16hh sports horse. She may only be 14.2hh, but she's as wide as she is tall and when all 5'8 of me clambered on her for the first time she stood there as if I'd just put a saddle cloth on her

 

[Gloi]

I think people convince themselves that they need something taller. To a certain extent it's the same as what happens with PREs. The Spanish (male and female) are quite happy riding them at 15hh, but people in northern Europe want a 16hh version. As a result there are some awful examples of leggy PREs knocking around here, that are definitely no stronger than a 14.3hh or 15hh version.

My connemara is far stronger than my 16hh sports horse. She may only be 14.2hh, but she's as wide as she is tall and when all 5'8 of me clambered on her for the first time she stood there as if I'd just put a saddle cloth on her

100% agree here. As they are breeding taller they aren't building them stronger, the square built old fashioned pony is a little powerhouse. It may not be built for eventing but for carrying someone on the hills all day there is nothing better.

 

[ester]

I'd never seen that many highland ponies (wrong end of the country generally!) One used to come to our BSJA shows.
Then I accompanied rara affiliated showing.
Highlands everywhere!

 

[Shilasdair]

Well one alternative could be a proper drive towards a slimmer, healthier society instead of changing breed specs to suit our lardiness. Looking at my school photos from the 80s there were hardly any fat kids. The current UK child obesity stats are shameful (and the figures on young children having sugar-rotted multiple tooth extractions).

I think we normalise too much that's detrimental these days.

So we breed shorter people to fit the Highland pony breed standard?

Valid point regarding people being overweight - but humans are getting taller, and therefore heavier whether they are or are not overweight.

And taller, heavier people need taller, heavier ponies to stay in proportion.

 

[Leo Walker]

If your over the weight a highland can carry, your substantially overweight though

 

[Jill's Gym Karma]

So we breed shorter people to fit the Highland pony breed standard?

Valid point regarding people being overweight - but humans are getting taller, and therefore heavier whether they are or are not overweight.

And taller, heavier people need taller, heavier ponies to stay in proportion.

Height is out of people's control, but weight certainly isn't (except in a tiny minority of cases involving medication side effects and hormonal disorders). According to 2012 stats on Wikipedia, the average height of an English female is 162cm/5 ft 3ish so that's plenty of horsey women who'd be fine on a native (used the female figure as the majority of us on HHO appear to be female).

At a museum I once saw a model of the weekly food ration for an adult during WW2; a real eye opener. And people did much more physical work back then.

 

[palo1]

I think people convince themselves that they need something taller. To a certain extent it's the same as what happens with PREs. The Spanish (male and female) are quite happy riding them at 15hh, but people in northern Europe want a 16hh version. As a result there are some awful examples of leggy PREs knocking around here, that are definitely no stronger than a 14.3hh or 15hh version.

My connemara is far stronger than my 16hh sports horse. She may only be 14.2hh, but she's as wide as she is tall and when all 5'8 of me clambered on her for the first time she stood there as if I'd just put a saddle cloth on her

This! I often feel conflicted about the obsession people have here with horses over 16hh/16.2hh!! If you look at the hardest working breeds and types of horses world over, very, very few of them are tall. I read a study (I think it is quite well known) that demonstrates that for soundness and longevity 15.2hh is the optimum height for a sport/working horse as the heart and other organs can function really well, legs, backs etc are not unneccessarily lengthened, joints are not under as much pressure etc yet the stride length and weight carrying capacity is also optimum. It makes real sense to me and I tend to look for a well made horse under 16hh regardless of the glamorous appeal of a tall, elegant sport horse. I want to look elegant riding though and I do understand that at 15.2 that is not always the case. Having travelled a bit too I have much admired many of the foreign breeds of working horse - most of which are shorter even when they are working hard/carrying full adults. My 6'3'' husband who is slim and athletic looks perfectly respectable on a 14.2 hh decent cob but as I am sadly fatter than I would like to be I look less well suited even though my weight is fine for a smaller cob. My weight/fatness is the aesthetic problem and not the height of the horse!! It is a thing I am at peace with and have to watch what I eat and how much energy I expend in order for my vanity to be satisfied. I think this is much more of a problem than the size of our horses - it is just an aesthetic that we have become accustomed to. On the other hand of course there IS a rider weight issue in some areas and we all need to be straight about that. I know it's difficult to hear but if we are too heavy for the horse we have, we really shouldn't ride. Getting a bigger, stronger horse would be an option then...