Tall narrow natives, Arab?

Yes! It is probably wiser to find a superb example of a more historic breed and use that as a potential conformation template rather than some of the beautiful but fragile modern made horses. I believe, though I know very little in reality, that where breeding that has stood the test of time, minor issues of conformation are not so desperate for most kinds of work under saddle (I know zero about driving). Also, look at Mongolian and Criollo horses - they are undoubtedly and necessarily tough, hard working, sound and often long lived but wouldn't, at first glance, satisfy many of our ideas of good conformation. Not neccessarily glamorous either but if I had to count on one to get me from A to B I think I would rather have a 14hh steppe pony/criollo than a gorgeous European warmblood. But everyone wants different things. :)
 
Cortez said:
Well, I am used to looking at them, and most modern horses' hind ends look very odd to me! Spanish horses are a different shape; their necks are higher, their forelimbs are set further forward, croups are sometimes rounder, sometimes flatter, hind limb angles are greater, heads are longer & narrower, they don't carry their tails, etc., etc. They move differently too, and don't move their backs like warmbloods do (thankfully, if you like being comfortable). A lot of people get in trouble when they start trying to make them go like the horses they are used to, or "correctly", as it's often put. It often doesn't go well if you try and make them go long and low - they're not built to do that, most don't go well in a snaffle; they're used to curb bits, a whole host of difference.....

I am usually looking at the low end of the market and expect to pay €1,500 - €4,000, my stated budget is €1,500 - €3,000. The last horse I bought was €2,000, but I am always looking at the less fashionable type of horse: small, very old fashioned movement (high knee action, often dishing), grey, roman nose, will buy mares, stallions, don't need PRE reg and don't mind a cruzado (mixed breed). If I was looking for something fancy - colours, 16.2h+, flat "dressage" movement, dished head, then it would be €5,000 ++++
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I know what you mean and don't get me wrong I really like them as a breed, I have seen pictures of some of yours and they didn't look like some that were posted on here, I had a friend that had 2 and they definitely didn't have back ends like that, so I guess you get the odd few that tend to look that way.

It's a bit like Arabs as well I have 2 both put together very differently, and I know some tend to be croup high in general as a breed I have one that is one that isn't, I would consider an Iberian I have always liked them I must have a thing for flowing hair!
 
Ycbm - from the photos the handler could well be holding him back/pulling him their way especially if he is a big mover and they cannot keep up (they look rather small lol!) and this could make his neck look rather odd as his head is facing more towards the handler.

His sire is special too, a proper old fashioned leg in each corner welsh cob - wonder what his dam is like. I would say he is worth the 3k especially if his dam has good lines. I would definitely go and see him, see if they’ll free school him so you can see his Unrestricted movement.
 
I saw some hock xrays recently of a PRE, very low mileage but of the taller more leggy type, the vet was amazed at the condition of the joints and was equally amazed that the horse was not usually crippled, she was that day due to a kick which was why the xrays were being done, the owners have the whole family they imported, dad, now gelded, mum and two offspring, the youngest is the only one that is really sound and that is a bit questionable at times, that said their temperament is super, the one in work has a real can do attitude despite being ridden most of the time by a relative novice.
 
paddy555 said:
we had a sec D. Never ever again. Not in a hundred million years. He was a very sweet horse. He walked through stable doors literally, split the planks straight down the middle he was so strong. He may have been better as a driving horse. Riding he was quite scary. You would be riding along the road happily at a walk and next thing with no warning he would have jumped sideways up a 4 feet bank or you would be riding in one direction on the common and suddenly find yourself going in the other direction. He could turn through 180 degrees at the drop of a hat before you even realised.
He had to be introduced to every sheep we met out riding individually and on Dartmoor there are an awful lot of sheep.
He couldn't realise that 1 sheep looked pretty much the same as another.
I did take him to some 25 mile rides. He always had to be vetted in a bridle, there was no way of holding him otherwise. I remember riding alone on one on the outskirts of a village. We met a cat and he totally refused to go past it. We had to wait for the next riders to catch up to get past it. At home one of our cats slept on his back in the stable. His brain power was, well, non existent.
I remember one day OH took us out in the lorry about 10 miles from home. I rode him, got back to the lorry and he totally refused to load. Just couldn't get him in. I had to ride home. How intelligent is that? nice ride in the lorry (which he was very used to) or have to work and I did make him work after that balls up. :D

I retired him at about 13. He was lucky we had the land and stabling so he could just live out his life in retirement. He died at 27. He was very very hard work to ride and I just gave up. There was just no pleasure in it.

He was the most beautiful horse ever, he could jump anything but he just didn't wish to do so most of the time with a rider on his back.
I made a bad mistake when I had him vetted. The person who had broken and trained him rode for the vet. Looking back I could see what a really good rider she was and how much work she had to put into riding him.

After that I've stuck to breeds with a brain and a lot more cooperation. :D:D
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Re sheep.

My old D mare adored the ewes and lambs in the next door fiel and would spend hours with her head over the wall saying hello to them.

Blooming creature would still spook at every single sheep out on a hack. I'm sure she genuinely believed that 'her sheep' were completely different to the alien sheep outside!

Loved the bones of her.
 
I know this thread has moved on from Arabs slightly towards PREs, but I've just got back from a glorious hack on my share horse and just wanted to say confirm that Arabs are wonderful. I always think riding them is so different to riding anything else - just fabulous! Though of course I imagine that you get the same feeling (albeit a very different kind of ride) with a PRE.
 
HashRouge said:
I know this thread has moved on from Arabs slightly towards PREs, but I've just got back from a glorious hack on my share horse and just wanted to say confirm that Arabs are wonderful. I always think riding them is so different to riding anything else - just fabulous! Though of course I imagine that you get the same feeling (albeit a very different kind of ride) with a PRE.
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totally agree they are wonderful. Nothing like them but I think they are very much "horses for courses" .
If your interests lie in wonderful hacks out with your horse an arab is the chap for you. If you want some hacking but also like your arena work a fair bit then a PRE may be more suitable.

Both however are wonderful, light intelligent horses a large number of which are happy to bond with their human and work well and enthusiastically for them. Those are the traits, along with a good pedigree of toughness and soundness that I think are important for the "older" rider.
Being an "older rider" these were the things that were important to me when I chose the horse for my dotage. :D

ETA I learnt very early in life that looks are not important in a horse. They are way down the line. Lots more important things.
 
Agree 100% with this ^^^^ I find if you like Arabs, you will also get along with PRE's, they are very alike in their "people-ness" - sorry, I mean they are both breeds that tend to like people/humans and want to please. Neither breed is especially oriented to modern horse sports, however, which doesn't mean they can't do them if that's what owner wants.
 
It's true that PREs are particularly comfortable to ride, particularly in trot, their legs move like little knitting needles in perfect rythm and their back don't move much.
My family has 3 PREs and none of them are post legged (all barefoot too with excellent hoof quality), you need to buy from the right breeders. If you intend to keep and want a diluted, I would look into importing a foal/yearling from a reputable breeder. It is within your budget, although you would have to wait a bit for the horse to grow up.
 
This thread is making me think I might go for a PRE for my next horse.....

I am that rider who wants something that will hack, but also likes arena work. Dressage is my passion, and having got my connie up to Medium, I don't think you need a warmblood to enjoy yourself and get decent scores. Much prefer to work with the horse I have to the best of its ability, rather than try and train it like a warmblood.

I rode a stunning lusitano in Portugal a few years ago, very comfortable, but powerful. Nice and wide, you really felt like you had a proper horse underneath you.

I digress. I've been following with interest!! I've got a weakness for Arabs too, we have a stunning black Arab yearling at my yard. Interesting, he is endurance bred, and is pretty tall and gangly already, though very typey otherwise. In my mind, they are the ultimate hacking horse for riders who want a bit of spirit and fire!

I am another one who would never have a Welsh D.... I've never met one that isn't seriously quirky. They are beautiful, and often talented but I can't be doing with the hysterics. I've ridden plenty, and got on with quite a few, but all of them seem to have a screw loose somewhere, it just varies as to how it manifests itself! And I say this as the owner of a hysterical welsh A. He is bad enough at 11.2hh, I often think he would be lethal at 14.2hh.
 
*CAUTION*CAUTION* Spanish horses are not for everyone! The most screwed up horses I have ever had to try and fix have all been PRE's (and from the UK, as a matter of fact). I very strongly advise that you do a lot of research, riding - with people who understand them, and serious investigation into different ways of riding before you commit to a Spanish horse.
 
Cortez said:
*CAUTION*CAUTION* Spanish horses are not for everyone! The most screwed up horses I have ever had to try and fix have all been PRE's (and from the UK, as a matter of fact). I very strongly advise that you do a lot of research, riding - with people who understand them, and serious investigation into different ways of riding before you commit to a Spanish horse.
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What would you say was the major difference when riding a PRE?
.
 
paddy555 said:
totally agree they are wonderful. Nothing like them but I think they are very much "horses for courses" .
If your interests lie in wonderful hacks out with your horse an arab is the chap for you. If you want some hacking but also like your arena work a fair bit then a PRE may be more suitable.

Both however are wonderful, light intelligent horses a large number of which are happy to bond with their human and work well and enthusiastically for them. Those are the traits, along with a good pedigree of toughness and soundness that I think are important for the "older" rider.
Being an "older rider" these were the things that were important to me when I chose the horse for my dotage. :D

ETA I learnt very early in life that looks are not important in a horse. They are way down the line. Lots more important things.
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My arab is very capable in the school once he applies himself psycholgically (until then he's preoccupied with imaginary monsters in bushes, whether or not he needs the toilet, what's happening in a distant field, etc). The relationship is a very intriguing mind game, who should be in control type, whereas my last arab was totally straightforward, honest and submissive. Hacking success is variable. I recommend this sort for the entertainment factor alone and for how rewarding it is when they do concede you might be on the same side. Flame fought me and my plans most of the time but when we were in the shit she could and did save both our backsides, and my current arab has the same brain capability. I absolutely love them and I'm still hoping you find a clever arab, OP, it'll be fun to read about. :)

ETA I meant to say I knew I'd buy my horse before I even viewed him just from his photos because I'm a superficial cow and he is, to me, absolutely gorgeous.
 
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Cortez said:
*CAUTION*CAUTION* Spanish horses are not for everyone! The most screwed up horses I have ever had to try and fix have all been PRE's (and from the UK, as a matter of fact). I very strongly advise that you do a lot of research, riding - with people who understand them, and serious investigation into different ways of riding before you commit to a Spanish horse.
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Quite right too. Certainly not the kind of horse to get on a whim. I won't be in a position to have another horse for quite a while, so plenty of time to research, try different horses and speak to people I trust in the meantime. It seems a lot of issues arise when people buy one because they are beautiful, and expect it to behave like an 'English' horse.
 
cobgoblin said:
What would you say was the major difference when riding a PRE?
.
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Hard to articulate (especially without being rude about people's riding:p), but they tend to become upset with unbalanced, unclear, insensitive riding. They are sensitive, responsive and try really, really hard to please. If they can't understand what you are "saying" they can really lose the plot. Some get frightened and spook, some just lose the will to live.

They are brave (let's not forget they were bred to be war horses and to fight bulls), but unclear, heavy handed, and - not to put too fine a point on it, incompetent - riding scares them.
 
NinjaPony said:
This thread is making me think I might go for a PRE for my next horse.....

I am that rider who wants something that will hack, but also likes arena work. Dressage is my passion, and having got my connie up to Medium, I don't think you need a warmblood to enjoy yourself and get decent scores. Much prefer to work with the horse I have to the best of its ability, rather than try and train it like a warmblood.

I rode a stunning lusitano in Portugal a few years ago, very comfortable, but powerful. Nice and wide, you really felt like you had a proper horse underneath you.

I digress. I've been following with interest!! I've got a weakness for Arabs too, we have a stunning black Arab yearling at my yard. Interesting, he is endurance bred, and is pretty tall and gangly already, though very typey otherwise. In my mind, they are the ultimate hacking horse for riders who want a bit of spirit and fire!

I am another one who would never have a Welsh D.... I've never met one that isn't seriously quirky. They are beautiful, and often talented but I can't be doing with the hysterics. I've ridden plenty, and got on with quite a few, but all of them seem to have a screw loose somewhere, it just varies as to how it manifests itself! And I say this as the owner of a hysterical welsh A. He is bad enough at 11.2hh, I often think he would be lethal at 14.2hh.
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It's a real shame that the Ds seem to have a 'reputation' :( I only really know brilliant and capable ones but often read about difficult ones! For my own experience I chose the mare I have now because I know and have seen many of her relatives in action and whilst certainly spirited, sensitive and strong they are really honest, sweet horses. As I don't know any really horrible ones I don't really get the issues! But I wouldn't say they are for a novice - pony brain in horse body and they can be surprisingly athletic. My Arab x gent is sharp and sensitive and so is my Welshie but I like my horses like that. :):) I have loved riding Spanish horses too but they are too expensive for me to buy and I have no clue about their bloodlines or their formative education on the whole; I don't feel familiar enough with them to take a punt on either a started one or an unstarted one!! I think @ycbm is deffo on a good line of enquiry though between Arabs, Welshies and Spaniards !! I am sure you will find something brilliant, fun/interesting to work with and beautiful too. :) :) I can't wait to see which way you go now!!
 
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i think the welsh ds can be clever and sensitive like many other breeds that seem way more fancy. Because they are not expensive and there are lots around they are accessible. people end up getting overhorsed and "training" them in a way that allows them to use their energy for evil rather than good ;) I've only ever had examples like that where they've gone wrong in the past and need sorting but I would definitely like a blank canvas like yours at some point palo :)
 
You have to have a sense of humour to have a D and just kind of...ignore the silliness. It reminds me of a time I put a friend on my old mare to accompany me out hacking with me on my youngster. Silly old mare was snorting and looking at invisible monsters and friend was getting more and more worried. I told her to just ignore her as she was far to conservative with her energy to go bolting across the field! Friend didn’t get back on her after! ?
My next horse will be a D no doubt about it, I love their nature. They can be challenging but once they trust you, you’ll have no better partner.
 
Cortez said:
Hard to articulate (especially without being rude about people's riding:p), but they tend to become upset with unbalanced, unclear, insensitive riding. They are sensitive, responsive and try really, really hard to please. If they can't understand what you are "saying" they can really lose the plot. Some get frightened and spook, some just lose the will to live.

They are brave (let's not forget they were bred to be war horses and to fight bulls), but unclear, heavy handed, and - not to put too fine a point on it, incompetent - riding scares them.
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I would agree that they don't like un clear or mixed messages or (for mine at least) to be hassled/nagged. Mine don't like to be drilled either doing something a couple of times is enough, going over and over things seems to frustrate them! However, I don't think you have to be an amazing rider to get on with one just be clear, I have a weird right leg after an injury so it can do slightly strange things, but as I have trained all of mine to the aids that I can give they are perfectly responsive to what wouldn't be a classic aid.
 
Cortez said:
....you don't have to be an amazing rider to be competent.
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No, but I think a lot of riders 'panic' a bit about riding iberian horses and forget about just riding, they're different to other horses but not so different that competent riding on another type of horse wouldn't equal competent riding on an iberian.
 
I'd love a PRE or other Spanish horse or an Arab or another Anglo-arab. But they do seem a bit fancy for me and my bumbling about. Living vicariously through this thread for the moment!
 
shortstuff99 said:
No, but I think a lot of riders 'panic' a bit about riding iberian horses and forget about just riding, they're different to other horses but not so different that competent riding on another type of horse wouldn't equal competent riding on an iberian.
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I think anyone who wants to ride a Spanish horse, especially one trained in Spain, should definitely do two things: 1) Take some lessons from an instructor who knows and understands Iberians, preferably on a Spanish horse. 2) Ditch the idea that there is only one way to ride that is "correct", especially if the One Way is the BHS one.

PapaF - there are plenty of bumbling Spanish riders, they just bumble in a Spanish way....
 
Cortez said:
I think anyone who wants to ride a Spanish horse, especially one trained in Spain, should definitely do two things: 1) Take some lessons from an instructor who knows and understands Iberians, preferably on a Spanish horse. 2) Ditch the idea that there is only one way to ride that is "correct", especially if the One Way is the BHS one.

PapaF - there are plenty of bumbling Spanish riders, they just bumble in a Spanish way....
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Maybe it's just the way I naturally tend to ride but I find them a lot easier to ride then other types. I really can't get on with ex racers, and if I'm honest they scare me a little, but I've always had a great time on iberians. I should caveat I did go to Portugal and did train GP out there but that was after starting out with PRE's.

I think if people gave them a go at say a centre in Spain or Portugal then they might surprise themselves!

P.s I think you knew the sire of one of mine Lengueto V :)
 
palo1 said:
It's a real shame that the Ds seem to have a 'reputation' :( I only really know brilliant and capable ones but often read about difficult ones! For my own experience I chose the mare I have now because I know and have seen many of her relatives in action and whilst certainly spirited, sensitive and strong they are really honest, sweet horses. As I don't know any really horrible ones I don't really get the issues! But I wouldn't say they are for a novice - pony brain in horse body and they can be surprisingly athletic. My Arab x gent is sharp and sensitive and so is my Welshie but I like my horses like that. :):) I have loved riding Spanish horses too but they are too expensive for me to buy and I have no clue about their bloodlines or their formative education on the whole; I don't feel familiar enough with them to take a punt on either a started one or an unstarted one!! I think @ycbm is deffo on a good line of enquiry though between Arabs, Welshies and Spaniards !! I am sure you will find something brilliant, fun/interesting to work with and beautiful too. :):) I can't wait to see which way you go now!!
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I think the reason for the reputation is inexperienced people buying one because they are good looking, cheap and tough, and not understanding that they are sensitive, often quite reactive and like to push boundaries. Which is why you get a lot of badly behaved, neurotic and bargy Welsh Ds....

I'm sure that a blank canvas D, started by someone who really knows the breed and knows what they are doing, is quite a different prospect. Unfortunately, I've never met or ridden any in that situation. So I would be very reluctant to buy one, unless I knew exactly who had raised and trained it, and had done my research into the lines.

Don't get me wrong, I adore my welsh boy... but he also had a bad upbringing and I'm still dealing with the consequences of that now. They have long memories...
 
I don't want to derail this thread but goodness how I wish that straightforward riding competence, basic knowledge, confidence in oneself and joy in the horse-human partnership were taught in this country. Personally I see and hear a lot about fearful, 'un-educated' (in really the most basic sense) and sentimental equestrianism that really doesn't engender pride, confidence and just simple happiness in working with a horse. I have experienced myself both excellent teaching which has absolutely facilitated riding competently on a decent horse as well as miserable, footling, overly critical teaching on the dreariest of poor horses :( But one's own horse should be special and thankfully when we own a horse we can choose our teachers/trainers/influences.
 
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