Tell we what you see , besides a lame pony

[Horsekaren]

So this will no doubt add more confusion but in my head i think he was fat, he went on a diet, he was coming out of winter thin and then in February he found himself in a dealers yard, living out with no grass but some sort of straw, he was stressed and he dropped a lot of weight.

His neck is cresty in the first pic

Pic one - is the pic at the home before his last home before the dealers
Pic two was when i picked him up (i will say the vet said on his 5 stage that he didnt need to be fattened up he needed muscle)
Pic 3 is how his weight has pretty much been give or take a bit into summer.
(i keep in my mind that last pic was 8 weeks ago) he had never looked so good!

IHATEWORK - i couldnt agree with you any more, that is what i need, i want someone new to get on him, feel him, tell me what is going on listen to him. where the hell do i find this.

 

[ester]

The thing is it is so very rare for cobs to come out of winter poor unless they have other stuff gong on. Though as I said earlier there is a lot more going on in his earlier (dealer and soon after) pics and videos than just his weight.

I do think he does look better in the time you have had him but he has still never really looked comfortable and has so many 'things' going on for a horse of his age, even the jogging/running off in trot is a continued red flag to me.

 

[ihatework]

I can suggest someone, but it’s out of your area and £220 a week. I reckon you would want a minimum of 4 weeks to really assess.

I’d also be inclined to consider whether this is better done before or after a referral vet. I don’t know because I’ve never seen the horse in the flesh to get a good gut feel.

 

[Ellietotz]

It's hard to tell from a couple of pictures but his expression is completely different in the first picture to what it is in the third. In the third picture, he almost has the same expression as he does in the second.

 

[ester]

He does, but I think it's hard for us to really explain what that is/what we are seeing.

 

[LaurenBobby]

I agree with Ellietotz, he is fat in the first picture, but looks happy to me?

 

[TPO]

Surely if there was "something" that happened in between pic 1 and 2 the vet would have picked it/something up during 5 stage vetting done at the time of pic 2?

Clearly the dealer hasn't muscled him up or "ridden him through" anything when he was so weak. If he was "broken" by something between pic 1 & 2 I would imagine him to be at his most broken at that point. Even if dealer had turned him away and sold from the field the 5 stage should have picked up something and bloods would have been taken that could still be tested now if that's a concern.

Is the vet that done the vetting the same vet that you currently use?

Pic 3 would be the one that concerned me. It's just a snapshot of time and I have no idea what's going on, he's possibly just gone disunited, but that's not the correct footfall. Again just a moment in time but with that footfall while flexed to the inside and a tail swish (again could all just be timing) could be an indicator of something. However I'm aware that this was before his hocks were injected.

I think it's also worth remember that OP is posting because she is concerned and trying to do her best by the horse. She has a vet telling her that he is pain free and to crack on with riding and another vet who's been on the scene for a while now culminating in the hocks being injected. OP does appear to be trying to do the best that she can by her horse, evidenced by previous posts where she has taken on board suggestions and implanted changes.

It's always hard to be in the position and even harder with randoms on the internet giving conflicting opinions to the qualified experts who've seen him on the flesh. I'm not saying that randoms can't be right and that professionals can't be wrong (I know that first hand!) but OP clearly distressed so perhaps a bit of consideration prior to posting. There's nothing to be achieved by "shaming" someone when they are looking for help, advice and support.

 

[Goldenstar]

In my view it’s not ethical to retire a horse to a field who can’t lie down for rem sleep .

 

[JFTDWS]

A diet and a rough winter won't do that to a fat cob. You're looking at serious weight loss there - and god knows weight loss is a desirable thing with a fat cob, but only for the right reasons, and within a spectrum. That's not normal.

A 5 stage vetting will often miss a subtle or complex issue (and, indeed, I've known many sail through vettings with pretty significant issues).

 

[Leo Walker]

The time scale is just right though for an incident. Chuck him out and leave him over the winter, have him in next to no work and sell. Horse looks sound, comes into work, isnt right but its too late to do anything by then. Maybe I'm cynical but dealers dont hold on to pretty looking, nice, safe cobs all winter for no reason.

 

[Leo Walker]

In my view it’s not ethical to retire a horse to a field who can’t lie down for rem sleep .

As someone who doesnt sleep well thats probably true. Its hard functioning when you are always tired and it does affect every aspect of your life. I know when I do sleep properly I feel like a different person!

 

[Horsekaren]

He was a quality driving horse who suddenly ended up at a dealers as a riding horse. Something very definitely went wrong. Sometimes its just an accident that damages them mentally, but I think in this case its looking like more than that.

Could you speak to the old owners?

I dont think he looked much different when he was driven, i have tracked them down in the past, they said he loved his driving, they broke him for it. He was broken to be ridden at this home too. They said they sold him because the didnt have time for him but they did have a friesion and a stocking big 17,3 hanovarian grey so they had time for horses but not him. So i think he was turned away a bit and left to get fat whilst they didnt have the time. I did send this owner the thin pictures of him and he said he wished he has never sold him seeing what had happened to him. From here he went to a girl which rode him, hacked him, jumped him, showed him, dressage ect she then sold him to what she was told was a family home in kent but i called her to ask about him and she said she had been tricked by the dealer and was very upset to see the picture of him. I still speak to her everynow and again.

 

[Horsekaren]

The time scale is just right though for an incident. Chuck him out and leave him over the winter, have him in next to no work and sell. Horse looks sound, comes into work, isnt right but its too late to do anything by then. Maybe I'm cynical but dealers dont hold on to pretty looking, nice, safe cobs all winter for no reason.

He was with the dealer for 3 weeks, that is all

 

[ihatework]

What a lovely picture of him in harness!

 

[LaurenBay]

He is very beautiful HK, I hope you can get to the bottom of his issues. It is very clear that you love him dearly. I really do feel for you, I was in the same situation and I know how crappy it is.

 

[tristar]

i feel exactly how you feel about horses, they are my friends, they are part of me, i would miss them more as people than the riding, which is also very important to me.

one day you will be a super rider trainer, because your devotion to horses will guide you there, it is so obvious in every post you make.

i see in the first video a horse swerve slightly and buckle in a lame fashion, i have had very ``loose`` horse athletic horses who have done things like this when there was nothing wrong with them

the short step behind for me anyway could indicate an injury some time where the back and quarters meet region, maybe something happened to him before you got him.

the lay down thing, when down could he become stiff from the immobility or he is lieing on some part of him that is uncomfortable

i`ve had horses with mysteries and mis diagnoses and non diagnoses,who to my mind have passed through pathologies by the nature of which have gone through the life cycle of the pathology and got better and lived into old age

tumours on the spine can cause symptoms undiagnosed until post mortem

if he was mine i would keep playing with him, lunging on surface, not an hard ground keep him moving do anything , stretches popping a pole, walking out in hand you can see if he is hurting and stop but maybe not ride, till you know more, although i see why you tried it was to see if anything was different, but riding after long lay off can give false readings, like the too lively problem, i would not let him just become unfit unless that is indicated

there will be a vet somewhere who has seen all this before because in the history of horses yours is not the first to be like this , he is not the first horse in the world to be like this, i hope that may be some comfort, i see this as your mission to find that person who can say, yes i have some idea what it could be, you need that person.

on the saddle if i was to try anything i would use a wide saddle almost too wide and use a prolite pad to lift it, i use tgs and prolite pads

all this is just thoughts not written in stone, hope you can make some progress soon in a positive direction

 

[Regandal]

I agree, Tom Beech or Rob Jackson. Not cheap, but either of them should be able to tell you if he’s fixable.
Good luck, he’s a lovely boy. X

 

[ester]

Good point about the 3rd pic TPO.

 

[quizzie]

[QUOTE="Horsekaren,
A few of you mentioned wobblers, I'm not a vet but In my heart I really don’t think this is the issue, he is coordinated, can turn tight circles, will react to a tail pull ect. [/QUOTE]

Just to clarify, some have mentioned wobblers. others have ,mentioned neck and neurological issues....the term wobblers is often used as shorthand for neck issues, but there are many other causes, many of which will be negative for the classic tests.

....wobblers is a specific condition of instability of the neck vertebrae which means that when the neck is moved in a certain way, pressure is applied to the spinal cord causing odd gait/balance anomalies particularly of the hind quarters.

....injuries to the neck, causing bony changes such as facet joint arthritis.....or soft tissue swellings....or disc problems, can also cause neurlogical or gait anomalies, but because the actual vertebrae are stable, the specific wobbler tests may be negative.....however certain movements such as that shown in your 1st video can cause pinching/pressure. The 2nd video could also show issues deep in the C6/C7 region, as lying down/getting up may trigger pain, and hence reluctance to lie down/stay lying down and hence sleep deprivation.

....if the neck has not been fully examined, please don't discount it as the primary site of issue. Also be aware that, contrary to what you might expect, some issues will show on X-ray/some on bone scan....but not necessarily on both!..and some need other tests to show up!.

 

[Horsekaren]

this was the only time i see him down in the feild, this was about a year a go, about 5 am, i watched him start to gnaw as his leg and then he sat like that for a min then got up. I know i over analyse but doesnt look like a droopy snoorey horse, looks uncomfortable.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Well, well , well!
Chiro vet was actually super pleased with him! Actually she was sooo soooo sooooo pleased I didn’t see that coming! No pain over his si what so ever, happy over his back, shoulders, a bit tense over pole but nothing ab normal. She said he was tracking up about a foot more than last time which is amazing. She said he has got issues with his hocks so he is never going to track up like a Thorobred, it’s not in his build then add the hock situation so I need to accept he is always going to be a bit shorter behind than some horses.

I showed her both videos, she is going to send to rossdales to see what they think, but thought neurological. she told me to get back on board, aim for four mins of walking with a contact, but take it easy, so tomorrow I’m going to hop on for 15 mins of walk on long rein ( straight line hack) 4 mins of a walk on contact and then a min or two of trot on a long rein. If the issues are still there then that will be clear.
I literally cannot believe all the pain has gone over his back, she couldn’t touch him without him moving away and flinching four weeks ago.

very happy with the visit but confused, essentially I need to get back on to see what he does.

Fingers and toes crossed!

The physio (vet recommended, the best they said) was also extremely happy with my little cob when she came to see him in December. He wasn't going 'right' which is why she came out and basically she couldn't find a single thing really. He didn't really show any neurological issues or any tense areas, she was happier with him than my other horse! She wrote down he felt nice and not needing to revisit.. I went away feeling its me riding him wrong, yet he continued to act unhappy.

When the vet re visited within a matter of weeks, we x-rayed his full body as a last resort and it showed severe neck arthritis and hock arthritis. She was a excellent physio, but just shows they can't tell whats happening underneath but it was idea as the vet was struggling himself to find the issue until x-rays showed us. To add, he is co-ordinated.. you wouldn't ever think he had neck issues. It really can affect any horse and especially cobs.

I haven't red all of the replies, has he been in for a full work up yet at a vets? The videos make me think something neck related.. its so much more common than we think, a specialist told me that last week. Specially considering she mentioned neurological.. Do you ever notice if he trips in front?

 

[Laafet]

I am so sorry, you are having so much stress. I do feel for you. Personally if the insurance agrees I'd go straight to a big vet referral clinic for a work up. Rossdales are my regular vet which is handy as I don't get charged extra for using them. They are top notch and if you can afford the diagnostics then they have all the kit.
A word on your hock injections, I was surprised at how long your vet said they lasted. Mine last around a year or so, less if he's working hard or his management is not up to scratch (i.e. restricted turn out, lots in the school and no hacking). This seems to be standard I thought.

 

[milliepops]

. Specially considering she mentioned neurological.. Do you ever notice if he trips in front?

my neuro compromised horse never trips, what she does do is look where she's going, was obvious when vet pointed it out but I had never noticed. Especially over steps or sloping ground etc. Just mentioning because they can all be so different, rather than thinking it applies in this case.

 

[LaurenBay]

The problem is HK, there could be so many issues, a couple of issues or no issues (other then hocks) but you're never going to know for sure until he is looked at from head to toe by a professional. if you ask 50 people you will get 50 different opinions, and the questions you have cannot be answered from pics. None of us can tell you what exactly is wrong, only a vet with specialist equipment will be able to answer all your questions and put your mind at rest. Until he is looked at, it really is a guessing game.

 

[flying_high]

I think you need to book him in for a lameness assessment. A place at a really good referral place of your choice, with a good expert, in holiday season might take a 2-4 weeks to book.

I'd get saddles both checked in mean time, if can.

I'd work him every day for 7 days before the lameness assessment (in what ever way you feel is safe and effective). If work makes issue worse, you want it to show up on the day.

I would ask for the referral place to do the lunging and riding so you can watch and so you are removed from the equation.

If he is prone to adrenaline based soundness in a new place / post travelling, I'd stable him at the vets the night before assessment.

IF he presents sounds to all initial assessments at the vets, they wont take a lameness work up further, and the cost wont be that high.

IF he presents with an issue, you are in the best place to investigate it.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think I would start with a bone scan.
With all these things it’s a question of resource , but the horse needs a proper work up from a vet who is specialist in this type of work
These things are all costly .
If a bone scan shows alot of issues then I think I would call it a day a horse like that can cost 5k in a heartbeat and you have to be practical .
Many of us have been through similar it’s not easy but it’s just horses that’s what happens sometimes .
Sometimes even if you have unlimited resource you can’t make things right for them

 

[Horse2018]

With all your problems you’re having with him and his hocks not being to good I would retire him if I was you before more problems start to pop up . A cob dropping that much weight isn’t normal.

 

[LaurenBay]

With all your problems you’re having him and his hocks not being to good I would retire him if I was you before more problems start to pop up . A cob dropping that much weight isn’t normal.

Without even knowing what the actual issue is? Hundreds of Horses are still in work with hock arthritis and they are fine. We are so lucky to have so many different treatments nowa days. Seems a shame to retire right away without even trying to fix the issue. Especially since the Horse is insured so OP has some money to spend.

 

[gunnergundog]

Which county do you live in HK?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

my neuro compromised horse never trips, what she does do is look where she's going, was obvious when vet pointed it out but I had never noticed. Especially over steps or sloping ground etc. Just mentioning because they can all be so different, rather than thinking it applies in this case.

Oh definitely - some show no symptoms but don't feel right to ride, that was pretty much mine. I just mentioned it as the specialist said that was a common symptom.

Agree with everyone, book in for a lameness work up as next thing.