The 'Grand' National?

justabob said:
Most at a market are shot, sadly they do not arrive looking a million dollars fit to run, they arrive neglected, abused and unwanted.
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But they don't die as a result of something that happens at the market, do they? They die because we have a ridiculous over-population of horses in the UK, most of them being worth peanuts. There's a difference.
 
This thread is about the GN and National Hunt horses that are started later and in their prime at 7 years old, some are still raced in their teens. The wastage on the flat is another matter altogether.
 
SpringArising said:
But they don't die as a result of something that happens at the market, do they? They die because we have a ridiculous over-population of horses in the UK, most of them being worth peanuts. There's a difference.
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They die as a result of being at the market.
 
justabob said:
This thread is about the GN and National Hunt horses that are started later and in their prime at 7 years old, some are still raced in their teens. The wastage on the flat is another matter altogether.
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Justabob I'm with you. I've just read the whole of this thread and am smiling to myself.
 
SpringArising said:
But they don't die as a result of something that happens at the market, do they? They die because we have a ridiculous over-population of horses in the UK, most of them being worth peanuts. There's a difference.
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No it's worse for the market horses. They arrive in a poor, neglected condition, are sold for peanuts to the meatman to then have to journey in cramped conditions. If they're lucky they will get a bullet in this country, if not, they can be shipped for hours and hours abroad. The racehorses get instant veterinary attention.
 
I will copy the point from the article I linked to here to attempt to make it a little clearer why discussing the fate of equines in markets does not detract from the concerns expressed as to the fate of race horses :

Change the subject

When faced with information they don't like, some people try to deal by making sense of the opponent's claims, examining the evidence and critically reviewing their own attitudes and habits. You don't need that kind of hassle in your life. Instead, make yourself feel better by forcing those who are making you uncomfortable to talk about something else. For instance, if you like to hit horses hard with sticks and someone else says that is wrong, point out that there are worse things in the world. Demand that your opponent deals with everything else on the planet which you deem to be worse than their concern before they can have your permission to proceed with their discussion. If they insist that they have a right to discuss anything they want, regardless of your preferences, accuse them of hypocrisy and not caring about horses who starve or are kept in PMU barns. It is not necessary that you are yourself involved in addressing any of those things that you think are worse than your opponent's concern. You need never have donated a penny to charity or put in a single hour of volunteer work. Just point out everything that's wrong with the world and blame your opponent for not having solved all these problems before getting to the one with which they are currently involved. In many cases, you will be able to shame your opponent into red faced silence, pondering all the ways in which they're not helping horses
 
Holly Hocks said:
No it's worse for the market horses. They arrive in a poor, neglected condition, are sold for peanuts to the meatman to then have to journey in cramped conditions. If they're lucky they will get a bullet in this country, if not, they can be shipped for hours and hours abroad. The racehorses get instant veterinary attention.
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I agree. My issue is not the lack of veterinary attention with racehorses. Clearly they do get the best of attention in that respect (whilst they are in the care of the trainers etc). My issue was more about the running of a horse known to over heat. I just feel that it's something that would cause an absolute outcry if it were, say, in dressage and witnessed on national tv. Yet it seems to get pretty much accepted in racing.
 
justabob said:
It was an accident Tess1, not willful neglect.
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sorry, previous post directed at thread in general, not you in particular, I know you read the article :-)

I appreciate the difference between the two scenarios, but to simplify the argument, two wrongs don't make a right (I think someone said that earlier).
 
You have already made that point a few posts above, I am surprised that you felt the need to reiterated it, it was good the first time. Unfortunately in any discussion comparisons are made, that does not negate any argument.
 
Moomin1 said:
I agree. My issue is not the lack of veterinary attention with racehorses. Clearly they do get the best of attention in that respect (whilst they are in the care of the trainers etc). My issue was more about the running of a horse known to over heat. I just feel that it's something that would cause an absolute outcry if it were, say, in dressage and witnessed on national tv. Yet it seems to get pretty much accepted in racing.
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I get you Moomin. And I fully accept your views. That's the thing with racing. It is in the public eye all the time so an easy target for criticism. Racing is fairly transparent. Unlike other equine sports. Don't get me started on dressage!
 
Holly Hocks said:
I get you Moomin. And I fully accept your views. That's the thing with racing. It is in the public eye all the time so an easy target for criticism. Racing is fairly transparent. Unlike other equine sports. Don't get me started on dressage!
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You're not wrong at all. There are many issues in all disciplines that make the toes curl sadly.
 
justabob said:
You have already made that point a few posts above, I am surprised that you felt the need to reiterated it, it was good the first time. Unfortunately in any discussion comparisons are made, that does not negate any argument.
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well, I felt the need to reiterate it because the thread was still going along the lines of 'worse things happen to horses in markets than horses in racing' which is kind of pointless. I mean we could go down the whole PMU thing, find out how many on this thread are taking hormone replacement therapy and then have a bit of a go a them to detract from the fact that, on average, one horse dies every two days on a race course in the UK. Or we could discuss how shut down many riding school horses are, or how pissed off horses are at being chased around a round pen in the name of 'join up' ... all sorts of stuff really. But it doesn't change the fact that you are supporting a sport where an athlete loses their life every other day (more or less).
 
What would you like to happen Tess1, stop all racing, stop the breeding of thoroughbreds, stop an industry that employs thousands of people most that love and look after these horses. What are you and all the anti racing people wanting to happen?
 
justabob said:
What would you like to happen Tess1, stop all racing, stop the breeding of thoroughbreds, stop an industry that employs thousands of people most that love and look after these horses. What are you and all the anti racing people wanting to happen?
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I think some of them just want to moan....the Grand National has changed in every way in order to appease people, no horse has died for the last few runnings, hardly any fell on saturday, so they complain that the winner was overtired ! There is no pleasing some people.
 
justabob said:
What would you like to happen Tess1, stop all racing, stop the breeding of thoroughbreds, stop an industry that employs thousands of people most that love and look after these horses. What are you and all the anti racing people wanting to happen?
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And not forgetting stopping the British Horseracing Authority donating over £25 million per year to UK Equine veterinary research (which they currently do!). I'm sure not many of the anti racing people are even aware that this is happening.
 
justabob said:
What would you like to happen Tess1, stop all racing, stop the breeding of thoroughbreds, stop an industry that employs thousands of people most that love and look after these horses. What are you and all the anti racing people wanting to happen?
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It doesn't matter a jot what I want. But, what I would like, is for people to be mindful of what they are supporting, and not delude themselves, or try to delude anyone else about what the racing industry really is. Although ... if you're asking ... the British Horseracing Authority donating 25 million to throroughbred rescue, rehab and retirement might be a start ... after all, if they can do it for veterinary research, why not do it for the well being of the very animals the whole industry is based on?

edited for spelling
 
Hang on not everybody saying it was not a nice sight is anti racing .
I am not a mad fan of racing I find all the sentimentality around the horses when you watch on telly irksome because the way I see it the horses are modern day gladiators galloping in a cut throat business to appease the yelling masses .
But I am realistic it may have different ethical issues than other horses sports /uses but there's no moral high ground as far as I see it .
Some people like watching dressage or whatever some racing it is all animal use .
 
3Beasties said:
And not forgetting stopping the British Horseracing Authority donating over £25 million per year to UK Equine veterinary research (which they currently do!). I'm sure not many of the anti racing people are even aware that this is happening.
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Precisely.
 
tess1 said:
It doesn't matter a jot what I want. But, what I would like, is for people to be mindful of what they are supporting, and not delude themselves, or try to delude anyone else about what the racing industry really is. Although ... if you're asking ... the British Horseracing Authority donating 25 million to throroughbred rescue, rehab and retirement might be a start ... after all, if they can do it for veterinary research, why not do it for the well being of the very animals the whole industry is based on?

edited for spelling
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ok I understand, you want veterinary research to be curtailed and the money spent on rehab and retirement. Money is being spent on rehab and retirement, more so than any other horse sport.
 
bonny said:
I think some of them just want to moan....the Grand National has changed in every way in order to appease people, no horse has died for the last few runnings, hardly any fell on saturday, so they complain that the winner was overtired ! There is no pleasing some people.
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hmm .. one horse in hospital with broken ribs and a winner that nearly collapsed ... even the pro-racing people were concerned about his condition. Changes made to 'appease people' - not to improve welfare/chances of horses surviving the race - even though, as you say, no horse has died for the last three(?) runnings.

And you wonder why racing has the reputation it does ....
 
justabob said:
ok I understand, you want veterinary research to be curtailed and the money spent on rehab and retirement. Money is being spent on rehab and retirement, more so than any other horse sport.
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no, they can keep going with the vet research .... just more money on rescue and rehab. let's have people step up to the plate and take responsibility for these animals that have entertained them and (in some cases) earned them a good deal of money, not to mention entertainment, prestige, a livelihood and so on. They should all contribute - the owners, riders, trainers, punters ... they all have their fun, they should all take some responsibility.

edited to add - it should happen in all horse sports ... not just racing.
 
tess1 said:
hmm .. one horse in hospital with broken ribs and a winner that nearly collapsed ... even the pro-racing people were concerned about his condition. Changes made to 'appease people' - not to improve welfare/chances of horses surviving the race - even though, as you say, no horse has died for the last three(?) runnings.

And you wonder why racing has the reputation it does ....
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I don't think racing has a reputation with the general public, I think on the whole it passes most people by. The only race that people watch in any numbers is the Grand National, so yes, I think it has been altered as a PR excerise and not much else. Maybe it's time it was stopped and racing could just carry on without the annual hand wringing from people who in a lot of cases seem to be basing their whole opinion of racing from one race......
 
bonny said:
I don't think racing has a reputation with the general public, I think on the whole it passes most people by. The only race that people watch in any numbers is the Grand National, so yes, I think it has been altered as a PR excerise and not much else. Maybe it's time it was stopped and racing could just carry on without the annual hand wringing from people who in a lot of cases seem to be basing their whole opinion of racing from one race......
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My posts on this thread have been about the overall fatalities in racing, as well as what happened at the meeting, and in the National itself. One horse loses its life every other day (give or take) on a UK race course. That's not just about the National, or Aintree, although Aintree is one of the courses with the highest rate of fatalities. With the general public ignorance is bliss ... although more people are expressing concern about Cheltenham Festival, the National etc ... the high profile races with high fatalities do cause concern, even to Joe Public. 'Passing people by' is not the same as 'having welfare standards that stand up to close scrutiny'.
 
bonny said:
If they are basing their whole opinion on one race, then that says everything. That there is something very wrong about the National to cause that opinion in the first place.

FWIW, my OH bets on the National every year. He hates horses. He hates me having a horse. However, even he turned around to me on the day of the National and said "I wonder how many will drop this year..".
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tess1 said:
no, they can keep going with the vet research .... just more money on rescue and rehab. let's have people step up to the plate and take responsibility for these animals that have entertained them and (in some cases) earned them a good deal of money, not to mention entertainment, prestige, a livelihood and so on. They should all contribute - the owners, riders, trainers, punters ... they all have their fun, they should all take some responsibility.

edited to add - it should happen in all horse sports ... not just racing.
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Glad to hear that you agree to the veterinary research, I am sure Newmarket will be relieved to hear that! As for money spent on rehab I think you should do more research, money is taken out for this cause, hence the promotion of ROR classes and the numerous rehab centres around the country. There will always be the ones that will not be suitable to be moved on to another life outside the industry, they are normally put down, and rightly so.
 
Racing is dangerous ,eventing is dangerous ( and more so to people than racing ) some people take the view that it's a price worth paying for the 'sport' others do not those who don't should be able to express their views ,they don't have to put up and shut up.
 
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